Required Documents for Muslim Divorce?

[marlowecollins 5]

First, a couple of questions:

1. Does anyone know of a US-based number to contact the Manila embassy other than the one they have on their website that is for making interview appointments? I need to talk to someone that can discuss my petition.

2. Has anyone here had a prior marriage under the Muslim laws of the Philippines, been divorced, and petitioned for a K-1 Visa? What were your documentation requirements?

--------------------------------------

My fiancee's interview was last Tuesday; up until now we have sailed through the process. Prior to meeting me she was married and divorced under the Muslim laws of the Philippines- which supersede the Civil Code of the Philippines in these matters. Her divorce was already registed at the LCRO in 2009 as required by law and the divorce certificate is so marked. She has an LCRO annotated marriage certificate as well.

At the interview, the Philippine representative asked for an annotated marriage certificate from the NSO, which is for annulments and should not be applicable to Muslim divorces. When she finished her interview with the US consular official, they asked for the same thing. When she told the official that this was not required, the US consular official told my fiancee that it was between her and the Philippine official. She was not told whether she was approved or denied, and was not issued a 221(g) letter, but the embassy kept her passport. She was given a form to request a marriage certificate from the NSO from the embassy (which would be the same as the copy she already gave them). Our petition has shown "Administrative Processing" since then. I assume it will sit there until they get the annotated marriage certificate or someone intervenes to get it moving without it.

Since the interview, she has visited the NSO twice and the National Commission on Muslim Filipinos once. No one there has ever seen this paperwork being requested before from a divorced Muslim. No one can show her any law, rule, or policy that states that Muslim divorce must be annotated on the Muslim marriage certificate, and no one can tell her what paperwork is required and where to get it. The NSO just gave her a copy of the checklist for annotating an annulment, but she cannot just follow the procedures there, because they require court proceedings and declarations that are not applicable to an existing divorce. She asked if the procedures the Philippines uses for documenting overseas divorces would be more appropriate, but they didn't know, and are sticking to the annulment requirements.

She has tried calling the embassy, but has not been able to get through. I sent an e-mail to the embassy and am waiting for a reply. Currently, our plans are to wait another week for her to either get through on the phone or for them to return my e-mail. If I don't hear back from them, I am planning to write my senator asking the embassy either approve the visa or produce some documentation that this annotated marriage form is a requirement to issue her visa, and if so, how to get it when the applicant was divorced in the Philippines under Muslim laws. That seems like a lot of time and effort for something I think I can resolve if I can just speak to someone in authority.

Does anyone here have any personal experience that might be helpful?

EXCERPTED APPLICABLE PHILIPPINE LAWS/RULES:

EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 464

"ESTABLISHING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE NATIONAL STATISTICAL COORDINATION BOARD AND THE AUTONOMOUS REGIONAL GOVERNMENT IN THE AUTONOMOUS REGION IN MUSLIM MINDANAO"

SEC. 4. Pursuant to Presidential Decree No. 1083, the Clerks of Court of the Shari’ah District Court and the Shari’ah Circuit Court shall act as District and Circuit Registrars of marriages, divorces, revocations of divorces and conversions within their respective jurisdiction in the ARMM.

The District Registrar shall exercise supervision over Circuit Registrars in every Shari’ah District. He shall be the custodian of the records sent by the Circuit Registrars and shall likewise send copies to the Office of the Civil Registrar General.

In the registration of births, marriages and death, the Shari’ah law shall take precedence from the existing civil registry law. The applicability of other civil registry laws can be invoked only to the extent as may be consistent with Presidential Decree No. 1083. This being the case, the requirements as embodied in the Revised

Administrative Code of 1987, as amended, and other related laws shall be considered as applicable only to non-Muslims within the ARMM.

OFFICE OF THE CIVIL REGISTRAR GENERAL, NATIONAL STATISTICS OFFICE
ADMINISTRATIVE ORDER NO. 1, SERIES OF 2005

5. All Certificates of Divorce or Court Decrees shall be registered in the Shari'a Circuit Court. The Shari'a Circuit Court or LCRO where the marriage was registered shall be furnished a copy of the Certificate of Divorce or Court Decree for annotation in the Certificate of Marriage and the Marriage Register. Five (5) copies of the Certificate of Divorce or Court Decree shall be submitted for registration within thirty (30) days after the date of divorce by the interested party.

[Greenbaum 12,259]

marlowecollins, on 30 Jun 2014 - 3:19 PM, said:

First, a couple of questions:

1. Does anyone know of a US-based number to contact the Manila embassy other than the one they have on their website that is for making interview appointments? I need to talk to someone that can discuss my petition.

2. Has anyone here had a prior marriage under the Muslim laws of the Philippines, been divorced, and petitioned for a K-1 Visa? What were your documentation requirements?

--------------------------------------

My fiancee's interview was last Tuesday; up until now we have sailed through the process. Prior to meeting me she was married and divorced under the Muslim laws of the Philippines- which supersede the Civil Code of the Philippines in these matters. Her divorce was already registed at the LCRO in 2009 as required by law and the divorce certificate is so marked. She has an LCRO annotated marriage certificate as well.

At the interview, the Philippine representative asked for an annotated marriage certificate from the NSO, which is for annulments and should not be applicable to Muslim divorces. When she finished her interview with the US consular official, they asked for the same thing. When she told the official that this was not required, the US consular official told my fiancee that it was between her and the Philippine official. She was not told whether she was approved or denied, and was not issued a 221(g) letter, but the embassy kept her passport. She was given a form to request a marriage certificate from the NSO from the embassy (which would be the same as the copy she already gave them). Our petition has shown "Administrative Processing" since then. I assume it will sit there until they get the annotated marriage certificate or someone intervenes to get it moving without it.

Since the interview, she has visited the NSO twice and the National Commission on Muslim Filipinos once. No one there has ever seen this paperwork being requested before from a divorced Muslim. No one can show her any law, rule, or policy that states that Muslim divorce must be annotated on the Muslim marriage certificate, and no one can tell her what paperwork is required and where to get it. The NSO just gave her a copy of the checklist for annotating an annulment, but she cannot just follow the procedures there, because they require court proceedings and declarations that are not applicable to an existing divorce. She asked if the procedures the Philippines uses for documenting overseas divorces would be more appropriate, but they didn't know, and are sticking to the annulment requirements.

She has tried calling the embassy, but has not been able to get through. I sent an e-mail to the embassy and am waiting for a reply. Currently, our plans are to wait another week for her to either get through on the phone or for them to return my e-mail. If I don't hear back from them, I am planning to write my senator asking the embassy either approve the visa or produce some documentation that this annotated marriage form is a requirement to issue her visa, and if so, how to get it when the applicant was divorced in the Philippines under Muslim laws. That seems like a lot of time and effort for something I think I can resolve if I can just speak to someone in authority.

Does anyone here have any personal experience that might be helpful?

EXCERPTED APPLICABLE PHILIPPINE LAWS/RULES:

EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 464

"ESTABLISHING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE NATIONAL STATISTICAL COORDINATION BOARD AND THE AUTONOMOUS REGIONAL GOVERNMENT IN THE AUTONOMOUS REGION IN MUSLIM MINDANAO"

SEC. 4. Pursuant to Presidential Decree No. 1083, the Clerks of Court of the Shari’ah District Court and the Shari’ah Circuit Court shall act as District and Circuit Registrars of marriages, divorces, revocations of divorces and conversions within their respective jurisdiction in the ARMM.

The District Registrar shall exercise supervision over Circuit Registrars in every Shari’ah District. He shall be the custodian of the records sent by the Circuit Registrars and shall likewise send copies to the Office of the Civil Registrar General.

In the registration of births, marriages and death, the Shari’ah law shall take precedence from the existing civil registry law. The applicability of other civil registry laws can be invoked only to the extent as may be consistent with Presidential Decree No. 1083. This being the case, the requirements as embodied in the Revised

Administrative Code of 1987, as amended, and other related laws shall be considered as applicable only to non-Muslims within the ARMM.

OFFICE OF THE CIVIL REGISTRAR GENERAL, NATIONAL STATISTICS OFFICE

ADMINISTRATIVE ORDER NO. 1, SERIES OF 2005

5. All Certificates of Divorce or Court Decrees shall be registered in the Shari'a Circuit Court. The Shari'a Circuit Court or LCRO where the marriage was registered shall be furnished a copy of the Certificate of Divorce or Court Decree for annotation in the Certificate of Marriage and the Marriage Register. Five (5) copies of the Certificate of Divorce or Court Decree shall be submitted for registration within thirty (30) days after the date of divorce by the interested party.

The steps you must take to present the proper documents to USEM is as follows:

1. Go to the LCRO where the divorce took place. She needs to bring all documents from the court to include but not limited to finality, decision and marriage certificate. Have the LCRO record the divorce. Make sure the divorce was registered at the place that the decision by the court took place (City A, see #5 above). If the marriage took place in another location, then take all the documents from the LCRO "A" that you just completed from the earlier transaction to the local where the marriage took place if different then the divorce location "B".

2. Present all documents with endorsements from LCRO "A" to the LCRO where the marriage took place (LCRO "B"). LCRO B will make an endorsements from the documents from "A". And then pay the fee for the NSO endorsement and the mailing of said documents from NSO to the LCRO A. They will forward to NSO for endorsements and NSO will return to you.

3. Then at that time, upon receipt of the NSO documents make the necessary copies and forward to USEM.

This should satisfy USEM and you will then have completed their requirements. It sounds like a lot of work but the waiting is the longest part as this process can take 4-6 weeks depending on where she lives and the speed of the courier.

These steps are the same steps that we took for our process in September 2013.

This is what has to be done. They are not asking anything more from you than anyone else. Just do it! Good luck and get the process started now.

[Greenbaum 12,259]

I need to add that "they" are the ones with the GOLD, so it doesn't make a difference how you interpret laws, findings or court orders. You need to complete the process as they ask or you will be stuck in "neutral" till you do. Just get it done.

We did everything they are asking you and we had no problems at all.

Good luck

[marlowecollins 5]

I need to add that "they" are the ones with the GOLD, so it doesn't make a difference how you interpret laws, findings or court orders. You need to complete the process as they ask or you will be stuck in "neutral" till you do. Just get it done.

We did everything they are asking you and we had no problems at all.

Good luck

And your Philippine fiancee had a prior Muslim marriage and divorce, both of which took place in the Philippines?

[Greenbaum 12,259]

marlowecollins, on 30 Jun 2014 - 6:58 PM, said:

And your Philippine fiancee had a prior Muslim marriage and divorce, both of which took place in the Philippines?

Yes.

[marlowecollins 5]

Well, there is no court decree, only an OCRG Form 102 "Certificate of Divorce." The National Commission on Muslim Filipinos confirmed that this should have been all the paperwork she needed. The LCRO annotated her marriage certificate with just this, but the NSO is asking for a "finality of divorce." The NCMF said this is unusual, but put her on the phone with someone in the Zamboanga sharia court that said she would have to fly to Basilan, petition the court there, and wait for 5 months to get such a thing. I'm not entirely convinced that anyone knows the process and that entire area is considered unsafe for US citizens to travel.

Fundamentally, what the Filipinos want is immaterial; it's what will satisfy the US embassy that matters. They defer to the Filipino consular officer as a matter of course, but US law simply requires that the embassy be convinced of the fiancee's legal capacity to enter into a marriage, not that the successful navigation of a bloated and backwards Philippine bureaucracy. It's worth waiting an extra month to see how a congressional complaint shakes out if we can avoid her having to travel to an island crawling with terrorists.

My initial question still stands: I need a good US based phone number to the embassy to talk to them. If we can't handle it over the phone, I will go to the senator, if that doesn't solve it, then we will look at trips to Mindanao and 5 month waits.

[Greenbaum 12,259]

marlowecollins, on 30 Jun 2014 - 8:20 PM, said:

Well, there is no court decree, only an OCRG Form 102 "Certificate of Divorce." The National Commission on Muslim Filipinos confirmed that this should have been all the paperwork she needed. The LCRO annotated her marriage certificate with just this, but the NSO is asking for a "finality of divorce." The NCMF said this is unusual, but put her on the phone with someone in the Zamboanga sharia court that said she would have to fly to Basilan, petition the court there, and wait for 5 months to get such a thing. I'm not entirely convinced that anyone knows the process and that entire area is considered unsafe for US citizens to travel.

Fundamentally, what the Filipinos want is immaterial; it's what will satisfy the US embassy that matters. They defer to the Filipino consular officer as a matter of course, but US law simply requires that the embassy be convinced of the fiancee's legal capacity to enter into a marriage, not that the successful navigation of a bloated and backwards Philippine bureaucracy. It's worth waiting an extra month to see how a congressional complaint shakes out if we can avoid her having to travel to an island crawling with terrorists.

My initial question still stands: I need a good US based phone number to the embassy to talk to them. If we can't handle it over the phone, I will go to the senator, if that doesn't solve it, then we will look at trips to Mindanao and 5 month waits.

I'm a little confused about your OCRG Form 102 as that is not in any of the papers we received.

What we received from the court was, the divorce decree outlining the requirements of the divorce (children & assets etc.) and then from the same court we received the "certificate of finality", certification which is a document that certifies the decision of the judge of that Shari'a Circuit Court which has been registered in the Court's Registry, next we had a certificate from the Civil Registrar of the city that the Shari'a Circuit Court where the divorce took place, then we took the documents to the Local Civil Registrar where the marriage took place and had it certified. Then all the documents were sent from the LCR to NSO Manila whereupon they endorsed the Marriage Contract with a statement in the column to the right that NSO certifies the documents and has duly noted them in the NSO registry book on divorce.

So along the way everyone involved endorsed our papers in which the Certificate of Finality was contained and the Filipino CO at the USEM on the day of the interview searched and found that document (certificate of finality) allowing us to move forward with the interview to it's completion without any delay or 221(g) for this issue.

From what I can read from your statement above, it is important that you return to the court that the divorce took place in and have the "certificate of finality" produced. I am not a lawyer and I am only repeating the steps that we took. Your results may be different. I would contact a good lawyer in order to proceed. We had a very good lawyer who knew what he was doing. In fact we asked the question is this all the USEM will require during the interview and he responded positively with the caveat that the "Certificate of Finality" is going to be what they are looking for.

Going to your Congressman/woman is not going to do you any good IMHO. "What the Filipinos want is immaterial; it's what will satisfy the US embassy that matters"; no I have to differ with you. It is what either CO wants because they have the final say whether your documents are approved and eventually your visa is issued. Don't make this harder then it already is for you guys. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"!

[marlowecollins 5]

No one at the NSO or the embassy had ever seen this form before. I believe Philippine law allows different Muslim sects to conduct marriage/divorce according to their customs- depending on custom, some Muslims are even exempt from the marriage license requirement. I don't have a copy of the form handy right now, but perhaps I can scan it later. In basic terms, it documents that the husband pronounced "talaq" which is a form of divorce where the husband thrice repudiates his wife, and on the third time it is irrevocable. The certificate documents that this was performed in front of two male witnesses and is signed by an official as filed with the LCRO. If you research Islamic divorce, this is a very old method, the Philippine Muslim Code also state that this form of divorce is recognized in the Philippines. So, there was no court decree or certificate of finality- what she has is all she was given, and the officials at the time said that was all that is needed.

A Google search of the OCRG 102 didn't turn up much other than this list of documents acceptable to the Philippine social security system to update their records. I have reprinted a part of it here:

d.3 If from married to re-married

d.3.1 New Marriage Certificate, and any of the following whichever is applicable:

- Death Certificate, if due to death of previously reported spouse

- Certificate of Finality of Annullment, if marriage is annulled

- Certificate of Finality of Nullity, if marriage is null and void

- Certificate of Finality of Declaration of Presumptive Death, if spouse is presumed dead

- Decree of Divorce and Certificate of Naturalization or its equivalent, if due to divorce

- Certificate of Divorce (OCRG Form No. 102), if Muslim member

Notice how the OCRG 102 is listed seperately from any Certificates of Finality (your certificate of Finality of Divorce isn't listed at all!?). This form should stand alone, but because no one from NSO is familiar with it, they are asking for documents that don't exist in this case.

I will continue to disagree with you about a congressional complaint. Having been in an agency on the receiving end, we took them very seriously, and we had to support our actions by citing U.S.C./CFR or agency policy. There was a poster here who had a visa jammed because he was being held to the interviewer's personal poverty line standards, and his representative was able to fix it for him. The complaint is free, and at a minimum the embassy will be forced to cite exactly what policy it is invoking, its rationale for doing so, and what we need to do to address their concerns. Right now all we've got is some ideas on what to do from people who have never seen a divorce certificate before. And frankly, if it doesn't work, causing someone at the embassy two days of pain researching and responding to it is a very small payment for the effort and expense they would be subjecting me to.

[Greenbaum 12,259]

Yes I'm familiar with the thrice declaration of a Muslim male can invoke to end the marriage which is one process that is used ad well as the more "up to date" process that we used using a Shari'a Court.

At this time I can't help you as we each took different paths to arrive at our divorce. I can only wish you luck in your pursuit for your visa.

Please post from time to time on your progress as I'm curious and in the end you can help others. Thanks

[marlowecollins 5]

Just an update:

My fiance visited the LCRO where she was married, the NSO twice. Neither had ever seen the divorce certificate before, and neither would make the annotation the the marriage certificate. The first lady at the NSO said that they don't annotate Muslim marriage certificates, so my fiance asked them to write that on NSO letterhead so she could give it to the embassy. That lady wouldn't do it and called a supervisor who said they do annotate Muslim divorces, but could not tell her what documents were required to do so. They just kept giving her a checklist for annulments. Keep in mind this is at the NSO main office in Manila- that is like asking the IRS in DC about one of their tax forms and them having no idea what the form is and not having anyone that works there who does. The Philippine government is clearly grossly incompetent.

She finally just turned in the request form that the embassy gave her. Of course, they will just get a duplicate of the un-annotated marriage certificate they already have. The NSO did include some excerpt of Philippine law my fiance got from an attorney friend. I assume it was one of the things I found and posted here. The Embassy clearly got it, as I see they accessed her file twice since last week. No change in status.

After numerous attempts to call the embassy and getting disconnected every time she tried to reach the immigrant visa unit, my fiance finally got through yesterday. She didn't get to speak to a consular officer, but got some Filipino phone operator who just repeated the blurb on the website: "We can't tell you when we will be done, you will be contacted if we need anything."

I also never heard back from my e-mail that I sent per the embassy's contact instructions. They said it may take 7 days, and it's been 20. I sent them another one that said if I don't hear back I will have my senator inquire for me. I'm preparing a package with everything that has happened so far, and after the next 7 days is up I'm filing my complaint with my senator.

My biggest frustration is that it's impossible to reach anybody to discuss this. I know that they do "need something" since the document they asked her to get was not given to them; but since they will not speak to us, they don't know all the steps she took to get it, and the confusion within the NSO about whether or not she can get it, and how to get it if she can. That is important context for them in deciding if they need this additional documentation or not, because they do consider the true availability of documents before asking for them. For example, the embassy is very reasonable about not requiring police certificates from countries that make it too hard to get one, even if they are technically "available." The interplay between muslim and secular law and customs is also at play here- it's a very complicated situation, but they have no idea about any of this because they won't speak to us.

[Greenbaum 12,259]

marlowecollins, on 15 Jul 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

Just an update:

My fiance visited the LCRO where she was married, the NSO twice. Neither had ever seen the divorce certificate before, and neither would make the annotation the the marriage certificate. The first lady at the NSO said that they don't annotate Muslim marriage certificates, so my fiance asked them to write that on NSO letterhead so she could give it to the embassy. That lady wouldn't do it and called a supervisor who said they do annotate Muslim divorces, but could not tell her what documents were required to do so. They just kept giving her a checklist for annulments. Keep in mind this is at the NSO main office in Manila- that is like asking the IRS in DC about one of their tax forms and them having no idea what the form is and not having anyone that works there who does. The Philippine government is clearly grossly incompetent.

She finally just turned in the request form that the embassy gave her. Of course, they will just get a duplicate of the un-annotated marriage certificate they already have. The NSO did include some excerpt of Philippine law my fiance got from an attorney friend. I assume it was one of the things I found and posted here. The Embassy clearly got it, as I see they accessed her file twice since last week. No change in status.

After numerous attempts to call the embassy and getting disconnected every time she tried to reach the immigrant visa unit, my fiance finally got through yesterday. She didn't get to speak to a consular officer, but got some Filipino phone operator who just repeated the blurb on the website: "We can't tell you when we will be done, you will be contacted if we need anything."

I also never heard back from my e-mail that I sent per the embassy's contact instructions. They said it may take 7 days, and it's been 20. I sent them another one that said if I don't hear back I will have my senator inquire for me. I'm preparing a package with everything that has happened so far, and after the next 7 days is up I'm filing my complaint with my senator.

My biggest frustration is that it's impossible to reach anybody to discuss this. I know that they do "need something" since the document they asked her to get was not given to them; but since they will not speak to us, they don't know all the steps she took to get it, and the confusion within the NSO about whether or not she can get it, and how to get it if she can. That is important context for them in deciding if they need this additional documentation or not, because they do consider the true availability of documents before asking for them. For example, the embassy is very reasonable about not requiring police certificates from countries that make it too hard to get one, even if they are technically "available." The interplay between muslim and secular law and customs is also at play here- it's a very complicated situation, but they have no idea about any of this because they won't speak to us.

It sounds like you have done the best you can while working within the confines of the Philippine Government. I too would contact my Senator and Congressmen to get the ball rolling to help in the resolution of this matter.

Best of luck and don't forget to report back please.

[marlowecollins 5]

I have not sent anything to my senator yet, but on 18 July the CEAC status changed to "Ready" with this comment: "Your case is open. Please check your status after two business days via the CEAC launch page at https://ceac.state.gov/CEAC/."

I seem to recall that this is what it said before the interview, but I have also read that this means you have been approved and they are in the process of issuing the visa. Perhaps they sorted out their concerns without hearing from us. Any insights?

[Greenbaum 12,259]

marlowecollins, on 18 Jul 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

I have not sent anything to my senator yet, but on 18 July the CEAC status changed to "Ready" with this comment: "Your case is open. Please check your status after two business days via the CEAC launch page at https://ceac.state.gov/CEAC/."

I seem to recall that this is what it said before the interview, but I have also read that this means you have been approved and they are in the process of issuing the visa. Perhaps they sorted out their concerns without hearing from us. Any insights?

If your file is moving along, as it appears, you should see some more activity soon with the possibility with the finality of the issuance of the visa. I'm still in your corner rooting for a positive outcome.

[marlowecollins 5]

If your file is moving along, as it appears, you should see some more activity soon with the possibility with the finality of the issuance of the visa. I'm still in your corner rooting for a positive outcome.

Well, looking at it again, I'm not sure this is a good thing. The "case creation date" in CEAC now also says 18 Jul 2014- It has always shown an April date regardless of other status changes. I checked the USTraveldocs site, and it no longer says that her passport is "still at post' In fact, it looks exactly like it did before we made our appointment, It almost seems like they reset everything to before her interview.

They have not contacted either of us since the interview.

[Greenbaum 12,259]

marlowecollins, on 19 Jul 2014 - 1:11 PM, said:

Well, looking at it again, I'm not sure this is a good thing. The "case creation date" in CEAC now also says 18 Jul 2014- It has always shown an April date regardless of other status changes. I checked the USTraveldocs site, and it no longer says that her passport is "still at post' In fact, it looks exactly like it did before we made our appointment, It almost seems like they reset everything to before her interview.

They have not contacted either of us since the interview.

You think it's time to pull the trigger on your big gun?