A Lot Of Angst

[tuckin14 58]

I know I've posted many times about my wife's case. I have a lot of angst over this. For the first 2 years of our marriage she refused to make any attempt to move to the USA. Then, when I moved overseas she started to move to the USA, and when I came back unexpectedly she threw me out literally the day we moved in together. I won't go into some other even more painful things, but it's not like we tried and it just didn't work. I don't feel she made even the tiniest attempt. She never even gave me a key to her apartment in Canada and only took one to my house when we had a travel disaster that almost had her sitting on the doorstep in freezing snow.

Her I-751 was filed last October and AFAIK she heard nothing about it. We submitted it with zero evidence - I'm really not sure how that happened except that when you're being viciously screamed at every day you might lose focus. It's also hard to send in documents that don't exist.

In the past week she has apparently seen an attorney, and she has asked me for a list of trips she made to the USA. She did make 51 trips to the USA in the 2 1/2 years between our marriage and her moving here permanently.

We had a legitimate boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. We spent weekends together, went on trips together, had some limited contact with my family (none with hers, as they live in Europe and don't speak English).

But IF a marriage is qualitatively different, well, we didn't live together, or have keys to each other's houses, or pool our money, she didn't try to live with me (her reason was that I lived in a town of only 1.5 million people and she wanted to live in a big city, and saw no reason to move to a village - when she did move here, since I was overseas, she could move to any city with good air service to where I was living). Our "wedding" was hastily arranged and we had to borrow witnesses from the couple getting married after us, because I honestly didn't know until 11AM that we were getting married that day. We obviously never had children, while I made her the beneficiary on my insurance and investments she did not do the same. It might have made sense for our banking to be separate while we lived in different countries, but when she moved to the USA she set up all her own accounts. We had one or two joint accounts for convenience, but they were rarerly used and only for special purposes. I don't know how much they will inquire into our sleeping arrangements and sexual habits. She had a lot of credit cards using my address, but they were opened solely to get frequent flier miles, and never actually had any transactions. She always had a credit card in my name that she could use in Canada.

We were not a total sham couple, but she obviously never saw this as a long-term thing. She moved to the USA on July 26, closed on her condo purchase on July 31, and either that night or the night after told me to move out. It's pretty clear that as of the time she moved to the USA she had no intention of staying married.

So - does a longtime girlfriend with a marriage license get ROC? If you visited a lot, traveled together, if the boyfriend gave you lots of presents? if you had some joint insurance as a matter of convenience, like her being on my car insurance so she could drive my car when she was here (she didn't have a car of her own) and me being on her health insurance because I don't have any other source. She sometimes had a USA drivers license with my address, although the addresses on our licenses never matched. (I got mine on Umstead Place, then moved to Martin Rd. where she got hers, but I never changed my address on my license, that's what I mean.)

Or is a marriage different? Is seeing each other every other weekend and every holiday not enough, do you have to actually have the same legal address/domicile/whatever? Do you have to make an effort to live in the same city even if it's inconvenient, like one person maybe having to compromise and live where they don't want for the sake of love? Do both people have to take a financial risk, or is it enough that one person sends the other money and pays their credit card bills? Do they care, will they inquire, whether you had a sexual relationship before marriage, or after marriage?

I see a lot of posts by people who seem to be very legit couples, and they worry about a lot of seemingly small things. Do they have to provide every bank statement from their joint account for two years, only the first page, only one statement per quarter? What if they have drivers licenses from the same address but no lease? Do they have affadavits from the right people? What if they had right of survivorship on the brokerage account but no shared health insurance because they couldn't afford it? Meanwhile, my wife will be able to show that we had a legitimate relationship, but not necessarily a "marriage" - depending on what you call a marriage.

Of course, most people posting on this site can relate only their own experiences. I don't know of any posts from immigration officers, or even attorneys, who say "Here is what typically gets approved, here is what doesn't." I truly don't know if a "relationship with a marriage license" is different than a "marriage" to USCIS. I don't know if they will even go to one extreme ("Hey, you saw the guy every chance you could for the first 2 1/2 years, of course it's legit!) or the other ("Hey, you never did a single thing that we expect "married" couples to do, and then dumped him practically the moment you moved here, of course it's not legit!")

Making some sane predictions about both the timing and outcome does affect my life. It affects things about the (almost certain) divorce. How I deal with her now. (If she's going to lose her green card next month, I have less reason to bend over backwards to stay on her health insurance.) And my mental state. I know a lot of people will say "Just move on with your life." But those people probably all had at least one day when they both woke up and went to sleep knowing they were the most important thing in their spouse's life. They probably saw their spouse's eyes light up when they heard the words "I now pronounce you... you may kiss" instead of seeing a deer-in-the-headlights look.

So my real question is - do they give green cards for a relationship-with-a-license - or is a "marriage" qualitatively different - and where could I actually find out that information?

[Cheezees 1,514]

Before I attempt to answer some of your questions (based on my experiences), could you let us know how long your wife was actually present during the 2 year period of her green card issuance? If she does not meet the physical presence requirement, regardless of (the lack of) evidence presented, she will be ineligible to remove the conditions and that will result in a loss of her green card.

(Btw, USCIS is NOT interested in whether or not your relationship worked out, if you have sex regularly or not, if you still love each other, etc. they are only interested in seeing if the marriage was entered into in good faith. From your posts it seems like you were the only one who entered into it in good faith.)

[tuckin14 58]

1) I was not aware that there was a physical presence requirement. I know there is of course for naturalization. I think she was physically present in the USA about 240 days during the 2-year conditional period.

2) I am aware that USCIS doesn't care if the marriage worked out. The way I have described it (tell me if I'm wrong) is that what they really want to know is, what was in your mind at the moment you said "I do." Lacking the ability to look into the soul of another, they have to look at evidence.

My question is, what are they looking for "evidence" of? We did have a relationship. But does USCIS draw a line between a "relationship" and a "marriage." We had a relationship. And we had a marriage license. But does USCIS look for more?

Subjectively, I agree, I certainly entered the marriage in good faith. I don't think she got married just for the green card. In fact I'm quite sure of it; I think I was just the best option she had at the time and she didn't see getting married as precluding her from other options in the future. (None of this "For Better Or For Worse Till Death Do Us Part" stuff.) She's mentioned many times how she was better off in Canada with her higher salary, but now that she's here doesn't want to disrupt her life again.

Her attitude for a while has been that as long as she was justified in leaving me, USCIS should grant ROC. I think she has it entirely backwards. I think they care almost not at all how you felt on the last day of your marriage and very very much about how you felt on the first day you were married.

[WeLoveUnitedWedo 0]

We submitted it with zero evidence

Don't be surprised if the answer from USCIS will be adequate. They don't really care how you two feel about each other (i.e. trials and tribulations of married life) nor do they care how you part if it does not work out.

They care about two things really. 1) Did you live together during the 2 years? 2) Did you spend money together/co-mingled finances/ joint taxes/ trips/ bank account, car, bills. If you can prove all that then it's fine. If not then expect problems and hassles. They don't give a monkeys about your soul, your soulmate and your feelings!

Edited June 28, 2014 by WeLoveUnitedWedo

[tuckin14 58]

When I said "look into your soul" I was referring to knowing what you believed when you got married. I know they don't care about your feelings or whether you were "soulmates"

To answer your questions:

1) Was does "Living Together" mean? If you see each other every weekend you can afford a plane ticket, and one spouse has clothes toileteries books etc. at the house you usually meet at, is that "living together." If the foreign spouse just plain didn't like the city the USA spouse lived in, and waited until they agreed they could live in a "big city"; but by the time they arranged that the marriage ran out of gas, was that "good faith?" I mean, to me it seems like "living together" means having one home and you both live there, or you're moving heaven and earth to accomplish that, but what does USCIS mean by it? Can you say "Look we understand maybe you had to live apart for professional reasons, but did you at least give each other a key to your houses?

2) How important is the co-mingling? If you have a few joint insurance policies, is that enough? Is it important to go through the motions of making your spouse the beneficiary on your accounts when they rate to die 25 years before you do? If you say "But we lived in separate countries so of course our accounts were separate, and by the time I moved to the USA I knew the marriage was running out of gas so I wanted to protect my assets" - is that a good enough reason to not co-mingle?

It would be easier to know that these are bright-line tests - in effect that USCIS expects you to do every possible reasonable thing on these two criteria.

We did have credit cards that we both used, but there was no case where I used a credit card she was legally obligated on (except for some cards opened and closed quickly to get frequent flier miles on).

Will they say "Look, if you didn't live together and didn't co-mingle money, and didn't at least try as hard as you could to meet these criteria, it doesn't matter if you saw each other every weekend and took vacations together 8 times a year - a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with a marriage license, is not the same as a marriage that we give a green card for?"

[kehills 217]

You are married. You do not have "a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with a marriage license." If you do not plan on continuing to be married, then it really doesn't matter what immigration says about your current-wife removing conditions, because it's her problem, not yours. If she can prove to their satisfaction that she entered the marriage in good faith, then that's all she needs.

If you plan on continuing to be married, then all you have to do is prove to their satisfaction that you both entered the marriage in good faith.

There is no single bright line test because every marriage is different, and people remove conditions at different stages in marriage, career, and life.

[Cheezees 1,514]

Now I gave some questions and hopefully some answers as you have explained things more thoroughly.

1. Why did you agree to sign the removal of conditions, the I-751 form? I ask because it seems like you are questioning whether or not it will be approved. Which leads to my 2nd question...

2. Do you not want it to be approved? Your questions suggest that you don't. This is odd since while everyone is afraid of a denial, an RFE, an interview, a really slow process, you seem to be building a case for all of the above.

3. You do not mention a letter to USCIS explaining your circumstances. Most couples who have little evidence, who couldn't live together (jobs or school in different places), didn't have joint assets (couldn't afford a car, a house, a lease, credit cards, etc), or didn't have secondary/weak evidence (photos, trips, affidavits, bills) provide details that explain just that.

4. A marriage has not set explanation nor for many is it different from/more/less legitimate than what you are describing as "boyfriend/girlfriend". No one can answer that for you. I think the fact that you are asking if you had a legitimate marriage is telling.

5. The deer in the headlines comment really bothered me. Why did you marry her AND expect anything different? From your posts you married an unemotional, indifferent woman who turned out to be just that. She let you know what she was and you either ignored or accepted it. What happened after is no surprise - she didn't want to move to the US (with a terrible, frivolous excuse that other applicants who spouses HAVE to live elsewhere would kill to have) with you.

6. Why did she want the 2-yr green card? When you both applied, where did se live and what evidence did you present then?

7. Go to USCIS.gov and search "maintaining permanent residence". I think she fails under bullet points 1 and 3.

8. I don't believe she heard nothing at all. It sounds like she may have gotten AN RFE which is why she is asking you for further evidence.

9. If my husband looked bored when marrying me, made no effort to live with me, agreed to move my country only after I said I would move to his (some awkward switching of residences that would result in the both of us still living apart), moved to my country and kicked me out 1 day later, you could bet your last dollar that I would not have signed the ROC, would not have continued the marriage, would not have provided them any evidence.

10. I hope your case is denied. Of course there is no malicious intent there. The glaring, intentional lack of evidence is a huge red flag. It seems unfair that couples who receive random RFEs go through that angst and a case like this would be approved without incident.

[flora01 37]

I support that she must have heard back from USCIS.

People from different countries marry in order to live together.After reading your story i am convinced that you entered into marriage in good faith but she didn't. I don't know what does it mean 'our marriage was hastily arranged'. Who arranged it? GC is filed after marriage and ideally both are supposed to live together after getting conditional GC. That's why its called conditional green card. They want to check whether you fulfilled the conditions or not.

You are absolutely right, if marriages break its easy to say move on but difficult to do. But in your case it is easy to move on since you lived with her for a very short period of time and now separated for almost 10 or 11 months.

I think you should move on with your life and forget about her green card.

If she didn't make effort to live with you till now and you think its girlfriend and boyfriend relationship which could work out sometime in future, then you are big time emotional fool whom she is using for green card. If you think this marriage will not work out and still filing jointly, its wrong on your part.

I still didn't understand 'marriage was arranged hastily'. I think that was a strong way to prove that you both entered into marriage in good faith and got all family members involved in wedding.

[tuckin14 58]

Now I gave some questions and hopefully some answers as you have explained things more thoroughly.

1. Why did you agree to sign the removal of conditions, the I-751 form? I ask because it seems like you are questioning whether or not it will be approved. Which leads to my 2nd question...

Although she asked me to move out the day we moved in, I stayed for about 5-6 weeks. I signed the form a few days before moving out, while still hoping to change her mind.

2. Do you not want it to be approved? Your questions suggest that you don't. This is odd since while everyone is afraid of a denial, an RFE, an interview, a really slow process, you seem to be building a case for all of the above.

I have to admit to having mixed feelings when I recall rather clearly hearing my wife say, within those 6 weeks of arriving, "I want to start dating." I had been hoping that after all these years of living apart, she would say "I know you're looking for a job and will probably get one in another city and move, but it's nice that we can enjoy a few weeks or months together."

3. You do not mention a letter to USCIS explaining your circumstances. Most couples who have little evidence, who couldn't live together (jobs or school in different places), didn't have joint assets (couldn't afford a car, a house, a lease, credit cards, etc), or didn't have secondary/weak evidence (photos, trips, affidavits, bills) provide details that explain just that.

Somehow the I-751 was submitted with no supporting information. At least I think not. I know that I put it in a #10 envelope with one stamp, and it was returned for insufficient postage. I can't really answer for how I submitted it with no supporting information, except maybe that when your wife is screeching at you every day to move out, and a lot of the time you're going out when she's awake and coming home after she's gone to sleep, you lose focus.

4. A marriage has not set explanation nor for many is it different from/more/less legitimate than what you are describing as "boyfriend/girlfriend". No one can answer that for you. I think the fact that you are asking if you had a legitimate marriage is telling.

Oh, of course it's telling. This clearly was not your conventional marriage. I've been married before and they were very different. The question though is whether it will be over the bar that USCIS sets for what they call a "marriage."

5. The deer in the headlines comment really bothered me. Why did you marry her AND expect anything different? From your posts you married an unemotional, indifferent woman who turned out to be just that. She let you know what she was and you either ignored or accepted it. What happened after is no surprise - she didn't want to move to the US (with a terrible, frivolous excuse that other applicants who spouses HAVE to live elsewhere would kill to have) with you.

Well one thing did change in our two years of courtship - she went from "No I won't marry you" to "Yes I will."

6. Why did she want the 2-yr green card? When you both applied, where did se live and what evidence did you present then?

She was living in Canada. We wanted it because, at least in theory, we wanted to live together. And of course she could never work in the USA without it. It's even worse for teachers, because she couldn't even apply for jobs without a teaching license and she couldn't even apply for teaching licenses in the various states without a green card. We presented the evidence that we had a legitimate courtship, primarily that we had spent 37 weekends together in the calendar year before we got married.

7. Go to USCIS.gov and search "maintaining permanent residence". I think she fails under bullet points 1 and 3.

I don't think there is any issue there. She never "moved to another country intending to establish permanent residence there." That's quite different than staying where you are. She also was never out of the USA for more than about 4 weeks at a time.

8. I don't believe she heard nothing at all. It sounds like she may have gotten AN RFE which is why she is asking you for further evidence.

About two weeks ago we had a major blowup. Until that time we had been getting along fairly well. I believe that she probably contacted an attorney, who obtained a copy of her file, and discovered that there is no evidence of a bona fide marriage in it.

9. If my husband looked bored when marrying me, made no effort to live with me, agreed to move my country only after I said I would move to his (some awkward switching of residences that would result in the both of us still living apart), moved to my country and kicked me out 1 day later, you could bet your last dollar that I would not have signed the ROC, would not have continued the marriage, would not have provided them any evidence.

As I said, at the time I signed it I was still hoping we would stay together. I hoped for a number of months that we might eventually reconcile. And I rely somewhat on her goodwill for my health insurance coverage.

10. I hope your case is denied. Of course there is no malicious intent there. The glaring, intentional lack of evidence is a huge red flag. It seems unfair that couples who receive random RFEs go through that angst and a case like this would be approved without incident.

Many people on this board post about getting RFE's (only a few about interviews). From the stories most of those people tell, they are legitimate marriages that are missing either certain specific documents, or where their circumstances are such that they don't have written proof of some things. I agree it would be unjust for people with "stronger" marriages than mine to be put through the wringer while mine would sail through, but life is not always fair. I'm sure that if she is denied, my wife will think that life is horribly unfair.

[tuckin14 58]

I still didn't understand 'marriage was arranged hastily'. I think that was a strong way to prove that you both entered into marriage in good faith and got all family members involved in wedding.

Here is what happened.

I had wanted to get married but she had been resistant. We had been told that if we got married in the USA, USCIS or ICE or someone would say that she had lied when she came to the USA that weekend, saying she said she entered as a tourist but in fact entered intending to get married. So I was exploring ways to get married in Canada, although she still had never agreed to get married.

One Friday afternoon I went to see a lawyer in the USA, who said we would have no problem. When she arrived that night I told her. Now keep in mind, I wanted to get married. I found that you can get married anytime of the day or night, but you can only get a license during business hours, and the license is good for 60 days. So I proposed that the following weekend she come on Thursday night and we get the license Friday. I didn't actually say "Let's get married" - I was afraid that might scare her off.

So the following Friday we went and got the license. Then she said "Let's go across the street and get married," It was the first time I realized we were getting married. We got there and it was too late - the courtroom was closed for lunch. So we went out to lunch and then for a quick trip to Macy's. I had a bridge partner who was self-employed and his wife didn't work so I knew I could at least try to call him and ask them if they'd come downtown and be witnesses for us, but I was afraid it would scare my wife, so I didn't. And that's how we ended up in front of the judge without any of our own witnesses.

I felt kinda bad not waiting long enough to invite my parents. Her family could not have come, as they live in Europe. From time to time in the past, I had discussed possible wedding scenarios that would include some kind of video link to Europe, but she had never seemed too keen on the idea.

[flora01 37]

I still didn't understand 'marriage was arranged hastily'. I think that was a strong way to prove that you both entered into marriage in good faith and got all family members involved in wedding.

Here is what happened.

I had wanted to get married but she had been resistant. We had been told that if we got married in the USA, USCIS or ICE or someone would say that she had lied when she came to the USA that weekend, saying she said she entered as a tourist but in fact entered intending to get married. So I was exploring ways to get married in Canada, although she still had never agreed to get married.

One Friday afternoon I went to see a lawyer in the USA, who said we would have no problem. When she arrived that night I told her. Now keep in mind, I wanted to get married. I found that you can get married anytime of the day or night, but you can only get a license during business hours, and the license is good for 60 days. So I proposed that the following weekend she come on Thursday night and we get the license Friday. I didn't actually say "Let's get married" - I was afraid that might scare her off.

So the following Friday we went and got the license. Then she said "Let's go across the street and get married," It was the first time I realized we were getting married. We got there and it was too late - the courtroom was closed for lunch. So we went out to lunch and then for a quick trip to Macy's. I had a bridge partner who was self-employed and his wife didn't work so I knew I could at least try to call him and ask them if they'd come downtown and be witnesses for us, but I was afraid it would scare my wife, so I didn't. And that's how we ended up in front of the judge without any of our own witnesses.

I felt kinda bad not waiting long enough to invite my parents. Her family could not have come, as they live in Europe. From time to time in the past, I had discussed possible wedding scenarios that would include some kind of video link to Europe, but she had never seemed too keen on the idea.

Its one sided love and relationship. I completely understand your situation and sympathize with you, you were in love but she was not. She proceeded with you only for green card and you expected it to work out sometime in future. Now you need to come to reality that she doesn't love you so better move on in your life.

All the best!

[tuckin14 58]

Well I am still also perplexed and confused about my role and responsibility here. Have I done anything "wrong" by not withdrawing my sponsorship of the I-751 after we separated?

Wondering if there will be an I-751 interview, and what kind, and what they will ask. There's really no question that we had a "relationship." If they asked what our favorite foods/hobbies are or which side of the bed we slept on or the names of each other's best friends or who gets up first in the morning, we could answer those, at least through the time we separated. If they asked for an inch-by-inch description of each other's apartments, we could give those.

I don't know how deep they will dig. If they asked me in detail "What was your plan for living together" I would say "We had none. I wanted to live with my wife, but she would not stay married unless I had a well-paying job and in my field there are very few jobs in any city, so my choices were to live with her with a bad-paying job or no job, or live in another city, and she told me that she would not "come home to a retired guy" so I could never even retire to her.

Will they say "Mrs. Redtop, OK we understand that you had separate bank accounts most of the time because you lived in separate countries. We understand that you couldn't be on the same health insurance. We understand that by the time you moved to the USA you felt the marriage was falling apart and you didn't want to put your new condo in both names, But sheesh, couldn't you at least have bothered to change the beneficiary of your retirement accounts and life insurance to be your husband when you got married? He changed his. Did you really feel so separate from him the week you got married that you didn't want him to get your money if you died?"

The comical part of all this is... if she had seen an attorney before throwing me out, I am 99% sure the attorney would have said "Mrs. Redtop, whatever you do, don't separate until you get your 10-year green card. I know you don't like the guy, but put up with him. Maybe even stay until you get citizenship, which is only a year and a half away. Rather than take a chance on the whole rest of your life, be patient for somewhere between 6 and 18 months." But I know she couldn't have done that. Once, before we were married and while she was still on EHarmony, we were going to have a 5-week summer holiday, and four days before it started I asked her if she could please not go on dates with anyone else until after the holiday, and she said "I can't put my life on hold for four days."

I guess that for five years she's been "making the rules" and now I am content to see a stronger power than her say to her "You don't make the rules, you follow the rules."

[AnotherLostSoul 167]

@tuckin14: I feel truly bad for you. You were so blindfolded by loving her, but she never loved you. Honestly, at this stage, whatever she is asking for, just don't give her a darn thing. Let her deal with her immigration issues. Seriously. Anything you have, joint bank account/health insurance/cards/pictures/joint lease agreement/travel documents etc. just don't give it to her. Whatever she has she can try to file along for her ROC (or maybe RFE at this stage) and that's it. You don't give her nothing! Isolate yourself off of her. Don't even be in contact with her. I would say, file for divorce, but she probably will not be signing the paper, so the best is that you isolate yourself off of her, never (I say NEVER) communicate with her in ANY way and let her deal with her #######. She is a selfish lady, and no, I don't believe she ever loved you. If she said "I can't put my life on hold for four days" when you asked her not to date for that vacation period you guys had.....that's a cold blow! That's like clear cut about how she never loved you. She probably never even LIKED you! You were just the perfect victim to squeeze the green card out from. So seriously, no communication with her at all, and don't give her anything...whatever she has she can use for her ROC/RFE but you don't help her any further in any way. She is very mean!!! I am very sorry for you!!! I wish it did not happen with you!