Getting Sued using I864

[Villanelle 4,121]

Mmm no, not really. I mean I can dig up other articles about people, both male and female that are ordered to pay various forms of support (alimony/child support/legal fees) against perpetrators of DV/rapists/abusers etc. Like I said, its a common occurrence.

How does this tie into the 864?

Well the comment above about the VAWA defense/// Or the concept that one could use the idea of domestic violence in the preceding as an advantage. (I as a sponsor am a victim of DV- how can you expect me to pay the alien judge??) isnt that what you said?

That is not going to be a valid defense as demonstrated in the case above. The woman was a victim of DV. If you read past the first paragraph the article went on to say she was a victim of DV through out the marriage. Yes the husband was charged with a crime and was not convicted of it at the time of the divorce proceedings- but that inf fact was the reason why he was awarded spousal support. Because the court felt it was fair- that he was unable to provide for himself- he was the one at a disadvantage- NOT HER since his ability to earn was reduced due to the pending charges against him.

One of the things judges have looked at in the past in deciding benefits with the 864 is if the spouse is at a disadvantage, if their earnings ability is reduced. If there is a reason why they are not at the poverty line besides I just dont feel like working and WANT the former spouses money. You saw or can see if you dove into the extensive court documents the great lengths they went through to scour through years of documentation of every single cent of money in and out every account and every single spent by the plaintiff- to find out if someone was supporting them and to justify the money. Whether it was money from the son to the mother- where they determined he was in her household; or in the case of The Davis family, there was pages about some minor minor amount of money the Mrs received that was labeled as housecleaning services for a pastor- I want to say around the 1,000$ mark. It was highly disputed as she did not have an exact number. It appeared he took her in during the time she was in removal proceedings and gave her temporary housing and some cash assistance in exchange for housework and the numbers were fuzzy. The court had a f-i-t about it. A notarized letter from a holy man saying he thinks it was about x amount years ago?!? good grief, not good enough, they wanted hard numbers.

These types of cases are not for the faint at heart. You think filling out the 864 form is complex and in depth- the financial analysis the court will do on each party to determine your assets and income is like a financial prostate examine from the IRS.

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Anyway- this is just my point of view. The thread is for an open discussion. Based on my research- I dont feel a "vawa defense" would protect a sponsor from being ordered to pay. If you feel my argument is invalid then we will just have to disagree.

[Angelw4123 0]

Hi.

Thank you so much for the helpful reads. I am in a difficult place as my father,who is 57, has asked me to to co sponsor his wife. She is from Vietnam and they have know each other for 20 years. I agreed to help if I could and started submitting my forms a few years ago. Since that time I have gotten married. My husband and I joint file our taxes. I have recently had to explain in detail,because they required our new joint filed taxes, what co sponsorship means to him. The point of all of this is here: he is one of 6 children. He shared with me that his father has put their family business with equal ownership in the names of all of his children. The family business has grown to 35M. He can not sign this form and I can not sign the form while married to him because technically he has the business as an asset. He has to list the business on his taxes as well. I just don't know what to do. I am the only child from my father who can sponsor him and I don't see how I can. My husband, obviously doesn't like the idea because it puts his siblings at jeopardy as well if a suit happened. However I feel guilty because I am fortunate enough to have been provided these opportunities by my father. Even though I make just about 30k, my dad makes just enough to be below poverty level with no opportunity for additional job. We own a family chinese restaurant business for 35 years that is not making money.

[Angelw4123 0]

Sorry I accidentally sent it...

His wife will come over and work in the restaurant. But I don't have to ability to sponsor him.... What do I do???

I feel so guilty. I live in a one thousand square foot house and have a car and my dad lives in 650 square feet and has no car and is below poverty. I know I attended school and worked hard but he works 9am-11pm five days a week... I just feel helpless here.

[newacct 688]

Hi.

Thank you so much for the helpful reads. I am in a difficult place as my father,who is 57, has asked me to to co sponsor his wife. She is from Vietnam and they have know each other for 20 years. I agreed to help if I could and started submitting my forms a few years ago. Since that time I have gotten married. My husband and I joint file our taxes. I have recently had to explain in detail,because they required our new joint filed taxes, what co sponsorship means to him. The point of all of this is here: he is one of 6 children. He shared with me that his father has put their family business with equal ownership in the names of all of his children. The family business has grown to 35M. He can not sign this form and I can not sign the form while married to him because technically he has the business as an asset. He has to list the business on his taxes as well. I just don't know what to do. I am the only child from my father who can sponsor him and I don't see how I can. My husband, obviously doesn't like the idea because it puts his siblings at jeopardy as well if a suit happened. However I feel guilty because I am fortunate enough to have been provided these opportunities by my father. Even though I make just about 30k, my dad makes just enough to be below poverty level with no opportunity for additional job. We own a family chinese restaurant business for 35 years that is not making money.

First, if your income and assets is sufficient, and you don't need to count your husband's income and assets, then your husband does not need to sign anything. Then the only person with an obligation is you, not your husband. How you filed taxes is not relevant.

The other issue that you're talking about, I think, is that even if you are the only one with an obligation, if you get sued, then they might be able to try to claim your husband's business or something, because you are married. This gets into really complicated state law about how property is divided up between spouses and community property vs. separate property, etc. I believe that gifts and inheritance to your husband (including the business) is considered his separate property and should not be affected. However, any gain in value of his share of the business during the period of marriage may be considered community property and may be affected by your obligations. Not sure about this.

Anyway, I think this worry about I-864 is way overblown. The only situations in which you can be sued, is your mother-in-law falls into poverty, and then either 1) she sues you (she would have to really hate you to do this), or 2) the government sues you because your mother-in-law has used a need-based government benefit (there have only been one or two news reports of local governments thinking of pursuing this at all; it is very unlikely to happen). So as long as she doesn't sue you, and doesn't use Medicaid or something, this doesn't affect you at all. (It is within her power to not sue you and not use government benefits, so as long as she and you are on good terms, these things should not happen.) It doesn't matter if she has millions in bills or whatever; you are not responsible for that.

[Angelw4123 0]

Thank you for the response. I am sorry my post was more emotional and difficult to understand. I do not know my dads wife. She doesn't speak English and I have never met her. I do not know her intentions. I just know this is his third wife and his second wife was from Vietnam as well. They had conversations about bringing her over the same as this third wife. My concern on that side is that he gave her access to any money that he had and they started a business in Vietnam together. He does not share now but says she "did him wrong and wrote him out of the business" and now they are divorced. The point I guess is, I don't trust his current wife has the best of intentions since he thought his second wife was the best before the blindside. She might try to collect assistance sometime in her life. I don't know.

Lastly, my husband currently has the business on our taxes. All of the children do and they are listed as employees for the business. I know the Vietnamese assistance immigration office said that if we filed separately and I could Meet the requirements by myself than I would able to sponsor. Every time I try this route they ask for My husbands information and to sign this form.

[Villanelle 4,121]

Deciding on whether to sponsor or not is a personal choice and you should not let anyone guilt you about your choice. For your specific situation- you would be the co-sponsor for your dads wife. Risk wise its pretty low odds that you would ever have any financial implications. That means a court case where you are sued or bills from the government.

The above posts talk about how hard it is for one to sue or be sued. While it doesnt happen often it can happen. If your father and his new wife divorces and she can not support herself she can sue you and your father. As for bills from the government- again most states have a 5 year bar on immigrants receiving benefits. So for the first 5 years generally she would not be able to incur any bills. After that if she does the government does have the right to collect from you but I believe it has only happened 2- 3 times in history (where the government collected).

It ended up being fiscally irresponsible to collect. It cost them more in collection efforts then was actually collected, so unless they make a major overhaul to the process it probably wont happen again.

In either case theres quite a bit of things that must happen to get to that point. First X then Y then Z. Meaning first they would have to take be eligible for and take benefits- then the government has to decide to collect/locate you/ demand money back. The same principal for the "personal lawsuit." Its a variety of steps and circumstances that ALL would have to occur to end up there.

No one can tell you for sure that you will or wont end up there. Its a risk.

-

As for the immigration assistance office- they would be mistaken in demanding your spouse participates. Your father would sign the 864 as the primary sponsor. You would be filling out another 864 as the co-sponsor. For your 864- it contains your income information (its OK if you file joint taxes, they will just separate the income on the joint tax form from you and your husband- meaning if your joint tax return shows a TOTAL of 100,000 income thats fine. You just include proof that out of the 100,000$ 30k is your income and the remaining 70k is your spouses.)

If your sole income is not enough to meet the requirements your spouse CAN fill out the 864-a and attach it to your 864.Filling out the 864A makes your spouse a sponsor as well. If your income is enough to sponsor then your spouse does not fill out the 864A and is NOT a sponsor.

Of course if things go badly and you end up being sued or collection efforts are imposed against you (as the sole co-sponsor) then it becomes a more complex matter in regards to "joint assets" with your spouse. This is not really something that I believe anyone on here can advise you about. Its no different then if you were sued for any other reason / It then becomes a question of what parts of my husbands estate can be interfered with if I personally am sued as his wife? Thats not something that can easily be answered on a general forum information board. You can view this page about what is called "asset protection planning".

http://www.helsell.com/faq/faq-asset-protection-planning/

I believe an attny would advise you if you are worried about possible implications then dont do it- whatever it is but sometimes for family we stick our neck out. You are in an tough position because both your husband and your father are family. If you do help your father and it goes bad it will definitely impact your husband if you are ordered to pay X amount because of a lawsuit or collection efforts.

[verysadguy 170]

Vietnam is consider a high fraud country by USCIS. Proceed cautiously. I personally know 4 Vietnamese women who came here fraudulently. How can one person know so many fraudsters? My point is there must be thousands. Who wants to live in poverty if they live off the US Gov't?

The point is why sponsor someone you hardly know, can't verify, and can't even do a thorough background investigation on? My ex came with numerous personal references from dear friends of mine. They all LIED. I even just found out her aunt, the Vietnamese woman who married my white American patient, was a prostitute in her hometown. So even though my BS VAWA recipient ex-wife is long gone, I'm still finding out massive amounts of #######. USCIS is just weak. Why risk your money, your reputation, and possible connections to fraudulent individuals.

Brian1967 if you are following this thread PM me please. I have some updates. PS: for anyone who cares, my daughter is nothing short of AMAZING. Life is good.

[TBoneTX 44,671]

Brian hasn't logged on to VJ in 14 months.

Glad that life is good and that your daughter is amazing.

[Brian1967## 119]

i am still around and follow topics...just have not left any comments:) But I am back:)

[Brian1967## 119]

Started this topic as a result of being scared of being seud which leads to a lot of research. However, to anyone the party doing the suing must realize that there has to be something worth winning, the petitioner's attorney will look into if we do sue can we really get some$$$. In most cases the answer is no. It is very expensive to sue and defend a party in federal court. You can sign the I 864, and not get sued. Always be aware that immigrant marriages are tough they are really hard, in my thoughts 90 days is clearly not enough. The divorce rate is sky high, talked to someone I would call a friend and the divorce rate is more than likely 70%. the point is be careful and be smart. Love your spouse for who they are even when times are difficult and things sometimes workout:)

[verysadguy 170]

I've heard that from several attorneys. The lawsuits won't help VAWA victims, the cost to litigate is enormous, and if you win you'll likely never collect any money anyways.

Brian, clean out your message box so we can send you PM's please! Or send me one! Thanks.

[green_parrot 1]

Do the courts(state or federal) ever try to uncover the plaintiff's undocumented income? I am asking because so many immigrants(at least in NY) work cash under the table jobs, this is well known and I can't imagine this would not be considered in determining the sponsor's obligations after divorce. When my ex ran out he was working a cash under the table grocery store job bringing home $1600 per month. In theory he could continue doing that for the rest of his life and I could be liable under the 864 because he has no income on paper, isn't accumulating SS quarters and I assume isn't filing tax returns. Would the courts try to find out how he has been surviving all this time?

[Villanelle 4,121]

^ Sorry no one answered you when you posted.

Yes, they go through excruciating details during such a suit. In one of the cases above it refers to a dispute about how much the immigrant was paid by a local priest for housecleaning odd jobs. The amounts were not documented and they took issue with the sworn statement from a holy man.

If your ex is working that way and not reporting it, then yes he will never accumulate SS quarters and you will always be on the hook. But being on the hook and actually paying due to a suit is different. He would need to show that you have the funds for a lawfirm to move forward. If they do then he has to show his poverty level. They will look through all his finances to see what is coming and what is going out. Having undocumented income is going to make this difficult and not be to his advantage. They are going to in fact 'document' all the undocumented income during the case. He will be found to not be eligible if he is making over 1,000 a week.