RFE: Primary VS Secondary evidence FEED BACK PLEASE

[CANbirdUSman 11]

Insert from my RFE (Request For Evidence) notice: Almost word for word. I've included action that I've taken or will take and concerns/questions.

K1 VISA...

Circumstances of Meeting- Submit information regarding the circumstances under which the AMERICAN/petitioner and CANADIAN/ beneficiary met to establish the relationship.

~I've written a letter detailing how we met, up until the present day. Should my fiance the petitioner do a letter as well?~

Last Personal Meeting- .......... AMERICAN/petitioner ....Submit evidence of meeting the CANADIAN/ beneficiary in person within the two-year period preceding the filing of the petition. Primary evidence may include airline ticket stubs and receipts, ATM and credit card transactions....or any evidence that will help the USCIS determine "meeting" within the two years.

~(All with name, date, location)....We've made copies of a few airline stubs, although most of our flight receipts have been from online receipts that state they are official receipts. Credit Card transactions we've got plenty. *Favorite is my engagement ring purchase* ~

Secondary Evidence may include film-dated photographs...

~Geez...We live in a Digital World. However, I do have copies 3 'film-dated' photos to submit. Because this is Secondary evidence, I will also include photos of us that we're posted from FACEBOOK, because they are dated.~

The American/petitioner may also submit bank statements and/or credit card statements and receipts showing that a withdrawal/purchase was made in Canada.

~"Credit Card statements and receipts". Statement is what you'd get monthly. Receipt is what you get when you make a purchase. Isn't making a purchase on your Credit Card and getting a receipt a transaction? That sounds like "Primary" evidence to me? ~

What's your take? Feedback appreciated....

Edited April 28, 2012 by CANbirdUSman

[Anh map 2,098]

The person receiving the RFE should be the one submitting evidence including any written statements.

Boarding passes show that you got on a plane. Purchase receipts show that you bought a ticket. You want to give evidence that proves that you were there. Purchase receipts don't do that.

Ring purchase (unless you purchased during the time period where you were in the same place and can document it) does not help with proof of meeting.

[sheeshkabelle 153]

The petitioner replies to the RFE, because they are the one petitioning. So evidence from the beneficiary, isn't needed, but wouldn't hurt.

Credit card statements showing you made purchases in Canada can show the proof you were there and implies that the two of you were together. Statements only show your credit card was used in Canada, you could have given your card to anyone, while you were still in the US. A receipt proves you were physically there.

An engagement ring receipt shows proof you bought a ring, unless it was bought in Canada, it's only proof of an engagement.

Boarding passes show you actually showed up to the airport and got on a flight. A credit card statments showing you made a ticket purchase proves nothing, other than you bought a ticket.

The time stamped photos has me baffled. We supplied pictures that I printed from a digital camera at a kiosk at wal-mart and did not have an issue with it. I wrote on the back the time, date and where it was taken. (I did both for our K-1 and CR-1)But if you have it, give them what they want.

Edited April 28, 2012 by sheeshkabelle

[Penguin_ie 5,995]

*** two topics on the same issue merged. Please do not post more than one thread on an issue/ question *****

[EvilSquee 7]

Ah I see you PM was about an RFE after all, not the original I-129F filing. Give me a few and I will post my RFE and what I sent. I had a pretty much identical RFE and I have since been approved.

[EvilSquee 7]

My RFE was:

INTENT TO MARRY: The petitioner and beneficiary must each provide an original statement (signed and dated) indicating they plan to marry each other within 90 days of the beneficiary's admission to the U.S.

REQUIREMENT THAT PETITIONER AND BENEFICIARY HAVE MET IN PERSON: It must be established that the petitioner and beneficiary have met in person and/or have been in each other's physical presence at any time during the two years immediately preceeding the filing of this petition.

* Circumstances of Meeting - Submit information regarding the circumstances under which the petitioner and beneficiary met to establish the relationship.

* Last Personal Meeting - Submit evidence of meeting the beneficiary in person within the two-year period preceeding the filing of the petition. Primary evidence may include airline ticket stubs and receipts (that indicate month, day, and year), copies of passport pages that show the identification page and admission stamps, military order(s), letter from the Commanding Officer, or any evidence that will help the USCIS to determine that the petitioner met the beneficiary within the two years. Secondary evidence may include film-dated photographs of the petitioner and beneficiary together. The following DOES NOT constitute evidence of meeting: disc, videos, emails, letter, phone bills, and greeting cards.

Important: All the submitted evidence must be verifiable. As such, current names, addresses, and phone numbers must be provided where requested.

My RFE response packet contained the following:

Request for Evidence Enclosure Listing

The following enclosures have been submitted as evidence for Heather <middle name> <last name>’s I-129F, Petition for Alien Fiancé. If necessary originals can be brought to the nearest USCIS field office for verification when photocopies were submitted as evidence.

Intent To Marry

• Notarized Fiancée Letter of Intent to Marry (original, petitioner has copy)

• Notarized Fiancé Letter of Intent to Marry (original, petitioner has copy)

Heather and Jay had these notarized together 2/27/12 thus providing secondary evidence for the last personal meeting requirement.

Requirement that Petitioner and Beneficiary Have Met in Person – Circumstances of Meeting

Note: Heather has always called Jason by his nickname Jay and his nickname is used in much of the evidence.

• Photo album with 63 captioned pictures

No photos are film-dated however some dates can be verified, such as the wedding of Heather’s sister Amber <last name> and her grandpa Larry <last name>’s funeral, thus providing secondary evidence for the last personal meeting requirement.

• Photocopy of Casa Loma pamphlet (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of Casa Loma map (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of Heather’s grandpa Larry <last name>’s obituary (petitioner has original)

• Funeral card from Larry <last name>’s funeral service (original)

• Funeral program from Larry <last name>’s funeral service (original)

If you open to the center Jay is listed as a pallbearer.

• Photocopy of funeral book with Jay’s signature in the pallbearer section (petitioner has original)

• Print out of Skype call logs to Jay from Heather’s laptop

• Letter from Zimbrick Saab (see Photo 59 in photo album, petitioner has original)

• Jay’s 7/6/09 amazon.com receipt for Heather’s birthday present of a gaming keyboard

• Photocopy of Heather’s amazon.com gift receipt and gift card for the gaming keyboard (petitioner has original)

• Jay’s 12/19/10 amazon.com receipt for Heather’s Christmas present of a laptop

• Photocopy of Heather’s amazon.com gift receipt and gift card for the laptop (petitioner has original)

• Jay’s 7/8/11 amazon.com receipt for Heather’s birthday present of a Kindle

• Jay’s 8/21/11 amazon.com receipt for a “just because” present to Heather of a book

• Jay’s 8/21/11 amazon.com receipt for a “just because” present to Heather of a second book

• Jay’s 12/13/11 Apple Store receipt for Heather’s Christmas present of an iPod Classic

• Jay’s 12/13/11 Apple Store order for Heather’s Christmas present of an iPod Classic showing that he had it engraved for her

Note: While Heather has purchased gifts for Jay such as an iPod Touch, dvds, etc they were purchased in stores and the gift receipts were given to Jay so they weren’t available to be submitted for evidence

• Screenshot of Heather’s Facebook status changing to engaged on 2/27/11 with likes

• Screenshot of Heather’s Facebook status changing to engaged on 2/27/11 showing comments

• Screenshot of Heather’s Facebook status changing to engaged on 2/27/11 showing additional comments

• Screenshot of Heather’s Facebook wall showing a comment from Jay’s sister thanking Heather for a gift of chocolates sent back to Jay’s family and additional comments from family congratulating her on the engagement

• Screenshots of Heather’s Facebook showing her family and their relationship to her with people who liked or commented on the engagement marked

• Photocopy of receipt for Heather’s wedding dress (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of thank you card from salesperson who sold Heather her wedding dress (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of receipt for Heather’s wedding dress alterations (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of estimate for tux rentals for wedding (petitioner has original)

Since Jay was visiting when I had my dress alterations done we picked out some potential tuxedos for him and the groomsmen. Don’t worry he wasn’t allowed to see the wedding dress!

• Emails printed from Heather’s work email showing she spent Christmas 2011 in Canada

• Photocopy of Christmas 2011 card to Heather and Jay from her aunt’s family (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of Christmas 2011 card to Heather and Jay from her sister’s family (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of wedding invitation to Heather and Jay from her cousin Anna (petitioner has original)

Requirement that Petitioner and Beneficiary Have Met in Person – Last Personal Meeting

• Photocopies of Jay’s passport pages showing the identification page and admission stamps (beneficiary has original)

Unfortunately the majority of the times Jay came to visit Heather in the USA his passport wasn’t stamped so many visits are missing.

• Jay’s SkyMiles account activity from delta.com showing trips to visit Heather in the USA

This shows many of Jay’s visits to the USA but doesn’t include flights prior to when he joined the SkyMiles program or on other airlines

• Jay’s itinerary and receipt for his 2/11/12 trip to the USA to visit Heather

• Photocopies of Jay’s boarding passes from his 2/11/12 trip to the USA to visit Heather (petitioner has original)

• Photocopies of Heather’s passport pages showing the identification page and admission stamps (petitioner has original)

Unfortunately the majority of the times Heather went to visit Jay in Canada her passport wasn’t stamped so visits are missing.

• Heather’s SkyMiles account activity from delta.com showing trips to visit Jay in Canada

Heather drove for her most recent trip to Canada for Christmas in 2011 so there’s no record of it

• Photocopy of a hotel receipt from Heather’s trip to Canada for Christmas in 2011 (petitioner has original)

Heather stayed with Jay and his family at his parents’ house however we told Jay’s family we were going shopping for Boxing Day and got a hotel room for one night so we could have some privacy. The room is in Heather’s name and was paid for on Jay’s credit card.

[CANbirdUSman 11]

*** two topics on the same issue merged. Please do not post more than one thread on an issue/ question *****

?

[CANbirdUSman 11]

My RFE was:

INTENT TO MARRY: The petitioner and beneficiary must each provide an original statement (signed and dated) indicating they plan to marry each other within 90 days of the beneficiary's admission to the U.S.

REQUIREMENT THAT PETITIONER AND BENEFICIARY HAVE MET IN PERSON: It must be established that the petitioner and beneficiary have met in person and/or have been in each other's physical presence at any time during the two years immediately preceeding the filing of this petition.

* Circumstances of Meeting - Submit information regarding the circumstances under which the petitioner and beneficiary met to establish the relationship.

* Last Personal Meeting - Submit evidence of meeting the beneficiary in person within the two-year period preceeding the filing of the petition. Primary evidence may include airline ticket stubs and receipts (that indicate month, day, and year), copies of passport pages that show the identification page and admission stamps, military order(s), letter from the Commanding Officer, or any evidence that will help the USCIS to determine that the petitioner met the beneficiary within the two years. Secondary evidence may include film-dated photographs of the petitioner and beneficiary together. The following DOES NOT constitute evidence of meeting: disc, videos, emails, letter, phone bills, and greeting cards.

Important: All the submitted evidence must be verifiable. As such, current names, addresses, and phone numbers must be provided where requested.

My RFE response packet contained the following:

Request for Evidence Enclosure Listing

The following enclosures have been submitted as evidence for Heather <middle name> <last name>'s I-129F, Petition for Alien Fiancé. If necessary originals can be brought to the nearest USCIS field office for verification when photocopies were submitted as evidence.

Intent To Marry

• Notarized Fiancée Letter of Intent to Marry (original, petitioner has copy)

• Notarized Fiancé Letter of Intent to Marry (original, petitioner has copy)

Heather and Jay had these notarized together 2/27/12 thus providing secondary evidence for the last personal meeting requirement.

Requirement that Petitioner and Beneficiary Have Met in Person – Circumstances of Meeting

Note: Heather has always called Jason by his nickname Jay and his nickname is used in much of the evidence.

• Photo album with 63 captioned pictures

No photos are film-dated however some dates can be verified, such as the wedding of Heather's sister Amber <last name> and her grandpa Larry <last name>'s funeral, thus providing secondary evidence for the last personal meeting requirement.

• Photocopy of Casa Loma pamphlet (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of Casa Loma map (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of Heather's grandpa Larry <last name>'s obituary (petitioner has original)

• Funeral card from Larry <last name>'s funeral service (original)

• Funeral program from Larry <last name>'s funeral service (original)

If you open to the center Jay is listed as a pallbearer.

• Photocopy of funeral book with Jay's signature in the pallbearer section (petitioner has original)

• Print out of Skype call logs to Jay from Heather's laptop

• Letter from Zimbrick Saab (see Photo 59 in photo album, petitioner has original)

• Jay's 7/6/09 amazon.com receipt for Heather's birthday present of a gaming keyboard

• Photocopy of Heather's amazon.com gift receipt and gift card for the gaming keyboard (petitioner has original)

• Jay's 12/19/10 amazon.com receipt for Heather's Christmas present of a laptop

• Photocopy of Heather's amazon.com gift receipt and gift card for the laptop (petitioner has original)

• Jay's 7/8/11 amazon.com receipt for Heather's birthday present of a Kindle

• Jay's 8/21/11 amazon.com receipt for a "just because" present to Heather of a book

• Jay's 8/21/11 amazon.com receipt for a "just because" present to Heather of a second book

• Jay's 12/13/11 Apple Store receipt for Heather's Christmas present of an iPod Classic

• Jay's 12/13/11 Apple Store order for Heather's Christmas present of an iPod Classic showing that he had it engraved for her

Note: While Heather has purchased gifts for Jay such as an iPod Touch, dvds, etc they were purchased in stores and the gift receipts were given to Jay so they weren't available to be submitted for evidence

• Screenshot of Heather's Facebook status changing to engaged on 2/27/11 with likes

• Screenshot of Heather's Facebook status changing to engaged on 2/27/11 showing comments

• Screenshot of Heather's Facebook status changing to engaged on 2/27/11 showing additional comments

• Screenshot of Heather's Facebook wall showing a comment from Jay's sister thanking Heather for a gift of chocolates sent back to Jay's family and additional comments from family congratulating her on the engagement

• Screenshots of Heather's Facebook showing her family and their relationship to her with people who liked or commented on the engagement marked

• Photocopy of receipt for Heather's wedding dress (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of thank you card from salesperson who sold Heather her wedding dress (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of receipt for Heather's wedding dress alterations (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of estimate for tux rentals for wedding (petitioner has original)

Since Jay was visiting when I had my dress alterations done we picked out some potential tuxedos for him and the groomsmen. Don't worry he wasn't allowed to see the wedding dress!

• Emails printed from Heather's work email showing she spent Christmas 2011 in Canada

• Photocopy of Christmas 2011 card to Heather and Jay from her aunt's family (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of Christmas 2011 card to Heather and Jay from her sister's family (petitioner has original)

• Photocopy of wedding invitation to Heather and Jay from her cousin Anna (petitioner has original)

Requirement that Petitioner and Beneficiary Have Met in Person – Last Personal Meeting

• Photocopies of Jay's passport pages showing the identification page and admission stamps (beneficiary has original)

Unfortunately the majority of the times Jay came to visit Heather in the USA his passport wasn't stamped so many visits are missing.

• Jay's SkyMiles account activity from delta.com showing trips to visit Heather in the USA

This shows many of Jay's visits to the USA but doesn't include flights prior to when he joined the SkyMiles program or on other airlines

• Jay's itinerary and receipt for his 2/11/12 trip to the USA to visit Heather

• Photocopies of Jay's boarding passes from his 2/11/12 trip to the USA to visit Heather (petitioner has original)

• Photocopies of Heather's passport pages showing the identification page and admission stamps (petitioner has original)

Unfortunately the majority of the times Heather went to visit Jay in Canada her passport wasn't stamped so visits are missing.

• Heather's SkyMiles account activity from delta.com showing trips to visit Jay in Canada

Heather drove for her most recent trip to Canada for Christmas in 2011 so there's no record of it

• Photocopy of a hotel receipt from Heather's trip to Canada for Christmas in 2011 (petitioner has original)

Heather stayed with Jay and his family at his parents' house however we told Jay's family we were going shopping for Boxing Day and got a hotel room for one night so we could have some privacy. The room is in Heather's name and was paid for on Jay's credit card.

Thank you so much for the detailed response. It's nice to hear from someone that has actually been through the exact same experience.

[CANbirdUSman 11]

Insert from RFE (Request For Evidence) notice: Almost word for word. I've included action that we've taken or will take and concerns/questions.

K1 VISA...

Intent to Marry- Both of us did separate letters, as requested and had them notarized.

Circumstances of Meeting- Submit information regarding the circumstances under which the AMERICAN/petitioner and CANADIAN/ beneficiary met to establish the relationship.

~Letter completed by petitioner & notarized.~

Last Personal Meeting- .......... AMERICAN/petitioner ....Submit evidence of meeting the CANADIAN/ beneficiary in person within the two-year period preceding the filing of the petition. Primary evidence may include airline ticket stubs and receipts, ATM and credit card transactions....or any evidence that will help the USCIS determine "meeting" within the two years.

~(All with name, date, location)....We've made copies of a few airline stubs, although most of our flight receipts have been from online receipts that state they are official receipts. Credit Card transactions we've got plenty. *Favorite is my engagement ring purchase that he made while in CANADA* ~

Secondary Evidence may include film-dated photographs...

~Geez...We live in a Digital World. However, I do have copies 3 'film-dated' photos to submit. Because this is Secondary evidence, I will also include photos of us that we're posted from FACEBOOK, because they are dated.~

The American/petitioner may also submit bank statements and/or credit card statements and receipts showing that a withdrawal/purchase was made in Canada.

~"Credit Card statements and receipts". Statement is what you'd get monthly. Receipt is what you get when you make a purchase. Isn't making a purchase on your Credit Card and getting a receipt a transaction? That sounds like "Primary" evidence to me? ~

What's your take? Feedback appreciated....

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

"Film-dated photos" is a old term which USCIS still hasn't purged from their canned RFE requests. Their biggest concern is that you'll send them photos that were taken more than two years ago. At one time, when cameras still used film, it would have been difficult for someone without darkroom facilities to retroactively postdate a photo that was taken more than two years ago, and nobody would have the foresight to advance the clock in the camera at the time they were taking the photo unless they knew they'd be filing an I-129F more than two years in the future.

They realize everyone uses digital cameras now. Just write the date on the back of the photo. If you print multiple photos on a page then write the date next to the photo.

[Iyawo Ijebu 157]

Thank you OP and the responder with the detailed list.

A question: did you folks submit any evidence before and did you include the letter of intent originally?

[Pinkrlion 2,724]

Thanks for your help this was very insightful.

[CANbirdUSman 11]

Thank you OP and the responder with the detailed list.

A question: did you folks submit any evidence before and did you include the letter of intent originally?

Hello from the OP..

With our I-129F we both submitted 'Letters of Intent", and a dated photo of us, as evidence that we'd met within the past 2 years.

Unfortunately, we only followed the instructions on the USCIS/DHS site. Not enough evidence submitted

(We didn't really know about the Vj Guide-K1- at the time, and had sent our 1st package out).

HAD we known, we would have submitted all the information then, and may have avoided the RFE.

Can't change the past. At least we know our way around the site a little better, and follow the advice of those that have filed before us.

[EvilSquee 7]

Thank you OP and the responder with the detailed list.

A question: did you folks submit any evidence before and did you include the letter of intent originally?

Yes, I submitted every airfare receipt from every time we ever met (from the first time in 2007 through the most recent before filing). I think there was only 1 we didn't have still. It was a ton of them. The problem was all the receipts were emails. Nothing in the original instructions says emails aren't acceptable proof.

Yes we submitted the letters of intent. They just felt the need to ask for them again I guess?

You're welcome for the detailed list. Don't think everything on there was necessarily needed but at the point we were RFE'd I wasn't taking chances and went right into overkill mode. I took the keep it short and simple, bare minimum approach in the first place and when we got the RFE went a full 180. Wasn't going to risk a denial or further delay.

[grrrrreat 109]

Insert from my RFE (Request For Evidence) notice: Almost word for word. I've included action that I've taken or will take and concerns/questions.

K1 VISA...

Circumstances of Meeting- Submit information regarding the circumstances under which the AMERICAN/petitioner and CANADIAN/ beneficiary met to establish the relationship.

~I've written a letter detailing how we met, up until the present day. Should my fiance the petitioner do a letter as well?~

Last Personal Meeting- .......... AMERICAN/petitioner ....Submit evidence of meeting the CANADIAN/ beneficiary in person within the two-year period preceding the filing of the petition. Primary evidence may include airline ticket stubs and receipts, ATM and credit card transactions....or any evidence that will help the USCIS determine "meeting" within the two years.

~(All with name, date, location)....We've made copies of a few airline stubs, although most of our flight receipts have been from online receipts that state they are official receipts. Credit Card transactions we've got plenty. *Favorite is my engagement ring purchase* ~

Secondary Evidence may include film-dated photographs...

~Geez...We live in a Digital World. However, I do have copies 3 'film-dated' photos to submit. Because this is Secondary evidence, I will also include photos of us that we're posted from FACEBOOK, because they are dated.~

The American/petitioner may also submit bank statements and/or credit card statements and receipts showing that a withdrawal/purchase was made in Canada.

~"Credit Card statements and receipts". Statement is what you'd get monthly. Receipt is what you get when you make a purchase. Isn't making a purchase on your Credit Card and getting a receipt a transaction? That sounds like "Primary" evidence to me? ~

What's your take? Feedback appreciated....

Ideally you'd have ticket stubs of you going to Canada, or perhaps ticket stubs of her coming here as far as primary evidence. Credit card statements of you in Canada would also be helpful. It would be even better if you both had statements showing transactions at the same place and the same time (like if you split dinner and could come up with statements showing transactions at the same restaurant).