U.S. Citizenship

[Gypsyangel 11]

Hi,

My time to apply for U.S. Citizenship is coming up in November and while I've always planned to do it, but I'm getting a little antsy about it for some reason. I'm 99% sure I'm going to go for it, but I feel like I'm doing this without a lot of information.

Is there a resource that anyone can point me to? I did search this site, but maybe I missed something.

Also, I wondered about those of you who have decided to forgo citizenship, why did you make that choice?

Kathryn41's great post (below) from about 1.5 years ago, is a great overall summary where she mentions the benefits of becoming a U.S. citizen outweigh the libabilities (at least for now). I wondered if anyone would be interested in making a list of pros and cons based on everyone's experience and knowledge. I started off with pretty much everything I know ... pretty thin ... LOL. Does anyone have anything they'd like to add?

Becoming a U.S. Citizen

Pros:

• freedom to live in either the U.S. or Canada without residency requirements
• Assume I would get social security type benefits from both countries, if I have contributed in both countries

Cons:

• Once a U.S. Citizen, always will be taxed by the U.S. (though there is a waiver of some sort - not sure what the waiver does)
• Have to 'denounce' your allegiance to Canada (though Canada doesn't recognize this)

You can hold dual Canadian and US citizenship. You don't even have to do anything to obtain 'dual citizenship' except take the oath of US citizenship. It happens automatically. While the US Oath says you give up allegiance to any other 'potentate, etc. (interestingly enough, the wording is such that the Canadian system as a country could actually be said to slip through the cracks of the definition if you wanted to get nit-picky ), the US only has rights over its own citizenship. It has no rights over what another country says and does, thus it cannot take away your Canadian citizenship because that is the sole right of Canada. Since Canada recognizes dual citizenship and has since 1977, I believe, you still remain a Canadian even if you have citizenship in another country.

The only way to get rid of your Canadian citizenship is by filing an actual written application form of Renunciation with Citizenship and Immigration Canada and have it approved. The US basically turns a 'blind eye' to US citizens who retain citizenship in other countries and basically considers them to be only Americans, while at the same time recognizing that there are Americans who hold citizenships elsewhere. They don't like it, but they put up with it.

As an American you are liable for all of the laws and regulations that are in place affecting Americans - even if these laws do not impact you as a Canadian citizen. There will, therefore, be some 'limitations' on what you can do as a Canadian because of that - not because you are a Canadian but because you are an American - the example of visiting Cuba is one of those. As a Canadian you can visit Cuba but you are still an American, and as an American you can only go to Cuba under very narrowly defined conditions. It is a balancing act in many ways. You always have to remember that you have responsibilities and requirements for both countries, not just one or the other as it suits your convenience.

The benefits of having US citizenship in addition to Canadian citizenship, however, outweigh the liabilities (at least for now), so if you wish to be able to live and travel freely throughout Canada and the US, you may wish to take out US citizenship as well, knowing that your Canadian citizenship is safe and cannot be taken away from you. And yes, I have both a valid Canadian passport and a valid US passport.

To just renew the green card - and remember you are still subject to all of the residency and physical presence requirements of a Permanent Resident which means you really can't live and work anywhere other than the US except for short periods of time - you would file the I-90, re do biometrics and then get the renewed Green card.

[Penguin_ie 5,993]

You posted this in General Immigration, not Canada. Would you like me to move it?

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

The one and only reason I can think of is if you make serious money and don't intend to stay in the U.S. forever. Let's say you make a million annually, income you would be taxed on in the U.S whether you are a U.S. citizen or a resident of the U.S.

But if you plan on retiring on your island in the Caribbean or even in Canada (I know, that would be crazy), then it's better to do this as a Canadian citizen only, instead of being a U.S. citizen. It could save you millions of dollars in taxes in the long run.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Kathryn's post didn't cover this, but I think it's a big deal...

If you plan to live in the US indefinitely then there is significant satisfaction in being able to vote for the bozos who pass the laws that you're subject to. In my mind, the only thing worse than being furious about what our elected officials are doing is not being able to do anything at all about it.

On the downside, US citizens have to actually GO to jury duty when they're called. They can't check the "permanent resident" box on the jury summons to get out of it.

[EminTX 131]

Jim, you do have the option to declare yourself mentally unstable on your jury summons. I consider it every time, cackle, then sign and continue on with being a good little citizen and do my duty.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Jim, you do have the option to declare yourself mentally unstable on your jury summons. I consider it every time, cackle, then sign and continue on with being a good little citizen and do my duty.

Yeah, I've been tempted myself...

As it is, I get a summons every year, never fail. About half the time I call or check online and end up not having to go to the courthouse. The other half of the time I end up going to the courthouse and waiting while they occasionally call out names to go to courtroom such-and-such. After either a half or whole day spent waiting I end up going home without being called. I got called into a courtroom once only. After two days of jury selection I wasn't called up for voir dire, and they let me go home.

Anyway, if you do happen to make it through the filtering process and get called up for voir dire then there are lots of ways you can get out of having to actually sit on the jury. Being opinionated is the best way to do it. For example, saying "I hate cops. I've never had a pleasant encounter with one. Most of my friends have been arrested on some bullsh!t charge at one time or another.". Claiming a mental or physical impairment is more difficult because the judge usually wants you to prove it.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

I agree with Jim - having the right to participate in elections is a big bonus as well of taking out US citizenship. I know it was one of my motivating factors - I have always believed that if you are living in a community, then you have a responsibility to participate in that community, whether it is the smaller city or the greater country. That is what democracy is about - we all play a role, or are supposed to :-). I really missed not being able to vote while I was a PR as you can't vote in Canada unless you have a planned date of return, so being able to vote in the US has meant a lot to me.

As this appears to have been meant to be posted in the Canada forum, I am moving it to the Canada forum as it discusses the pros and cons of Canadian-US dual citizenship.

[CanuckGurl 3]

This is just my opinion. It is not a decision to be made lightly nor quickly but something you need to think about long and hard to determine if it is what is right for you. Just because you CAN become a citizen doesn't mean you have to or should. It is both a mental and emotional decision that is highly personal.

Best of luck!

Becoming a U.S. Citizen

Pros:

1. Freedom to travel in and out of the US with very little worry of entry denial at the border.

2. Freedom to vote

3. Can be drafted. The draft was ended in 1973 but the Selective Service System remains in place as a contingency plan; men between the ages of 18 and 25 are required to register so that a draft can be readily resumed if needed.

4. Can move freely within the country with no fear of deportation.

5. You don't have to give up being a Canadian or holding Canadian citizenship to become a US citizen.

6. You can get jobs with the Federal gov't that would otherwise be off limits as a LPR.

7. You can become an elected official (but not president)

8. Your children, even if born abroad, can be US citizens automatically

9. You can collect Social Security benefits after the age of 62, even if you are living abroad.

10. You can call yourself an American

Cons:

1. You can potentially be drafted.

2. Restricted on travel internationally to places US friendly, not just Canada friendly

3. You will be taxed by the IRS regardless of where you live - the US taxes on citizenship not residency. There are ways to exempt some of your income if you live outside the US. (The tax treaty waivers are quite dangerous to use as a LPR - hard to claim ties as a resident of another country if you are a US LPR.)

4. Have to pledge allegiance to the USA denouncing all other countries and ties. You can unofficially hold dual citizenship, but the US does not recognize it.

5. You are an American, which in some places in the world is not a benefit.

6. After you have become a US citizen it is a fairly involved and somewhat complicated process to denounce your citizenship - keeping in mind that you can still be taxed by the IRS for up to 10 years after you do this.

[Gypsyangel 11]

As this appears to have been meant to be posted in the Canada forum, I am moving it to the Canada forum as it discusses the pros and cons of Canadian-US dual citizenship.

Thanks Kathryn! I didn't know where this went. Now i realize I posted it incorrectly. Oops.

[Flames9_RN 358]

One I believe can be drafted as a Permanent resident as well. I believe all males 18-25 have to register for Selective Service

[Wyatt's Torch 45]

I don't really see there being any cons to it. In the worst case scenario, if you feel you need to "flee" the U.S. or abandon your citizenship (and the only valid reasons for that would be major war / totalitarian government sort of reasons), you still have your Canadian citizenship. No one can take that away from you, unless you go to the Canadian consulate and go through the motions to rescind your citizenship. That the United States doesn't "recognize" dual citizenship is a side issue. When you show up at the Canadian border with your Canadian passport, they'll let you in.

Having said all of that, I believe that citizenship is a deeper responsibility. I don't think anyone should go into it with the mindset of, "Oh well, I can just go back to Canada if I have to..." You really DO swear an oath to defend the United States, and you really ought to take the meaning of citizenship to heart.

I don't love the United States, but it is my home...and it will likely remain my home for most or all of my life. As a result, I won't feel truly integrated into this country until I am recognized as a citizen and not an immigrant. As soon as I'm able to do so, I'll be opting for American citizenship.

[Kimbear 53]

With how much headaches and heartaches USCIS and immigration has caused us, i would definately do it.

1) so i NEVER have to deal with USCIS again, and 2) so i can vote and maybe just maybe help change some stupid laws especially regarding immigration and anythign to do with the housing market.

Every day i read the papers and wish i could say something, but right now as a PR i cannot..all i can do is crab at my husband lol.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Becoming a U.S. Citizen

Pros:

1. Freedom to travel in and out of the US with very little [no]worry of entry denial at the border.

2. Freedom to vote

3. Can be drafted. The draft was ended in 1973 but the Selective Service System remains in place as a contingency plan; men between the ages of 18 and 25 are required to register so that a draft can be readily resumed if needed.

Same for LPRs

4. Can move freely within the country with no fear of deportation.

LPRs can move freely as well

5. You don't have to give up being a Canadian or holding Canadian citizenship to become a US citizen.

6. You can get jobs with the Federal gov't that would otherwise be off limits as a LPR.

7. You can become an elected official (but not president)

8. Your children, even if born abroad, can be US citizens automatically

9. You can collect Social Security benefits after the age of 62, even if you are living abroad.

10. You can call yourself an American

Cons:

1. You can potentially be drafted.

LPRs can be drafted as well

2. Restricted on travel internationally to places US friendly, not just Canada friendly

You are talking about Cuba, Cuba, and Cuba alone? A Canadian can travel to Cuba.

3. You will be taxed by the IRS regardless of where you live - the US taxes on citizenship not residency. There are ways to exempt some of your income if you live outside the US. (The tax treaty waivers are quite dangerous to use as a LPR - hard to claim ties as a resident of another country if you are a US LPR.)

LPRs are taxed also on worldwide income

4. Have to pledge allegiance to the USA denouncing all other countries and ties. You can unofficially hold dual citizenship, but the US does not recognize it.

And how is that a con?

5. You are an American, which in some places in the world is not a benefit.

That's why you are a Canadian in places in the world where being an American is not a benefit.

6. After you have become a US citizen it is a fairly involved and somewhat complicated process to denounce your citizenship - keeping in mind that you can still be taxed by the IRS for up to 10 years after you do this.

No it's not. But only retarded people or people who make millions of dollars per year would even consider that.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Brother Hesekiel

[Udella&Wiz 325]

You never have to deal with USCIS again ( (unless you lied about something)

Let me tell you that since July (when I attained US citizenship) I've been feeling pretty carefree - no worrying about losing the GC, I am just a regular person. I voted a couple weeks ago which I haven't been able to do for the past 4 yrs...felt good. I feel like a regualr person - did I mention?

[thursdayschild 0]

I think for me, the motivating factor to not get citizenship is because I don't feel like I want to be a citizen. I wouldn't have any interest in moving there if not for my fiance. I can't say I want to be an American. At this stage of the game I don't need to make a decision, but right now I'm leaning heavily towards not wanting US citizenship. Even with all the perks, doing it for the wrong reasons (make life easier) doesn't seem right.