2 Lawsuits Challenge New Arizona Immigration Law

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

damn i hate this: i agree.

lets see if lightning strikes twice.

when illegal leave arizona & go to other states...they'll draft similiar laws?

This isn't really any different to what was done in (Florida? Texas?) a year or two ago. These laws seem to come and go periodically, primarily as a way of the State government focusing attention on the issue in the national news media.

[SMOKE 1,426]

They won't leave until there is no incentive for them to be there. So until there is some employer side enforcement component, they won't.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100429/D9FCDCN00.html

warning: its a link i got off of drudge it might trip big brother software

[Obama 2012 1,714]

If you're at the point where you're calling human beings "trash" and "scum" and then suggesting that they should be threatened with death as a punishment, you have no claim to rationality on this subject.

The fact that you use such emotionally loaded language suggests that your opinion on the subject is fundamentally emotional and not rational.

It's much cheaper to eliminate the problem than to let the problem persist. In the sense of resources/economic concerns, it is quite rational.

Now from a "humane" side of things it may not be, but I'm not one who worries all too much about the "humanitarian" side of things. Sometimes thinning the herd is quite necessary for the overall betterment of the herd itself.

[The_Dude 1,142]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100429/D9FCDCN00.html

warning: its a link i got off of drudge it might trip big brother software

Yeah, it did, I'll have to take a look at it at home. For some reason, they really don't like drudge or american renaissance here at work

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Your argument suggests that a police will overlook a crime by a white man in the hopes of finding a illegal Mexican committing a crime. It will be abused yes, all laws are but to what degree is the question.

With this law do you think a cop would overlook a German man who couldn't speak English that just committed a crime?

If a person commits a crime and is arrested and locked in a jail cell, then sure ask ICE to come by and determine their status. Some regions already do this.

But to detain someone who wasn't stopped for a crime (see other threads regarding the difference between a crime and a civil infraction) just to determine their status is wrong.

Reasonable suspicion is easy to use in normal crimes. An open container, ammunition found, maybe a suspicious looking baggy or some pills.

But how can you use reasonable suspicion with regards to illegal immigration? You can't use the person's race, their clothes, their language etc. The only thing I can think of is if tools for crossing the border are in sight etc.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Yeah, it did, I'll have to take a look at it at home. For some reason, they really don't like drudge or american renaissance here at work

HATERS! here it is.

Apr 28, 8:44 PM (ET)

By AMANDA LEE MYERS

(AP) Day Laborers stand along Arizona Ave Wednesday, April 28, 2010 in Chandler, Ariz. Arizona's...

PHOENIX (AP) - Many of the cars that once stopped in the Home Depot parking lot to pick up day laborers to hang drywall or do landscaping now just drive on by.

Arizona's sweeping immigration bill allows police to arrest illegal immigrant day laborers seeking work on the street or anyone trying to hire them. It won't take effect until summer but it is already having an effect on the state's underground economy.

"Nobody wants to pick us up," Julio Loyola Diaz says in Spanish as he and dozens of other men wait under the shade of palo verde trees and lean against a low brick wall outside the east Phoenix home improvement store.

Many day laborers like Diaz say they will leave Arizona because of the law, which also makes it a state crime to be in the U.S. illegally and directs police to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants.

Supporters of the law hope it creates jobs for thousands of Americans.

"We want to drive day labor away," says Republican Rep. John Kavanagh, one of the law's sponsors.

An estimated 100,000 illegal immigrants have left Arizona in the past two years as it cracked down on illegal immigration and its economy was especially hard hit by the Great Recession. A Department of Homeland Security report on illegal immigrants estimates Arizona's illegal immigrant population peaked in 2008 at 560,000, and a year later dipped to 460,000.

The law's supporters hope the departure of illegal immigrants will help dismantle part of the underground economy here and create jobs for thousands of legal residents in a state with a 9.6 percent unemployment rate.

Kavanagh says day labor is generally off the books, and that deprives the state of much-needed tax dollars. "We'll never eliminate it, just like laws against street prostitution," he says. "But we can greatly reduce the prevalence."

Day laborers do jobs including construction, landscaping and household work for cash paid under the table. Those jobs have been harder to find since the housing industry collapsed here several years ago.

Standing near potted trees and bushes for sale at a Home Depot in east Phoenix, Diaz, 35, says he may follow three families in his neighborhood who moved to New Mexico because of the law. He says a friend is finding plenty of work in Dallas.

Diaz says he has too much to lose by staying - he's supporting a wife and infant son back home in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, across the border from El Paso, Texas.

"They depend on me to survive," he says. "I'm not going to wait for police to come and arrest me."

Jose Armenta, a 33-year-old illegal immigrant from Mexico's western coast, is already planning to move to Utah within the next 20 days because of a combination of the economy and the new law.

"A lot of people drive by," he says as he watched nearby cars speeding past, "and they yell, 'Hey, go back to Mexico!'"

Analysts say it's too soon to tell what lasting effects the law will have on the state's underground work force, which also includes baby sitters, maids and cooks.

A study of immigrants in Arizona published in 2008 found that non-citizens, mostly in the country illegally, held an estimated 280,000 full-time jobs. The study by researcher Judith Gans at the University of Arizona examined 2004 data, finding that they contributed about 8 percent of the state's economic output, or $29 billion.

Losing hundreds of thousands of unskilled laborers wouldn't hurt the state's economy in the short term, but it could limit the economy's ability to grow once it recovers, says Marshall Vest, director of the Economic and Business Research Center at the University of Arizona's Eller College of Management.

Legal workers who are willing to take any available job now will become more choosy if the unemployment rate falls back to low levels seen before the recession hit.

"That's really the question, as to whether the existing population is willing to work those (low-level) jobs," Vest says. "I think economics provides the answer. If job openings have no applicants, then businesses need to address that by raising the offered wage."

Some illegal immigrants, however, intended to stick around.

Natalia Garcia, 35, from Mexico City, says she and her husband - a day laborer - will stay so their daughters - both born in the U.S. - can get a good education and learn English. The couple have been living in Arizona illegally for the last 10 years.

"Mexico doesn't have a lot of opportunities," she says. "Here, we work honestly, and we have a better life."

Olga Sanchez, 32, from southern Mexico, lives in Phoenix illegally with her two brothers, who are 21 and 17. While the youngest boy is in high school, all three work and send money back home to their parents.

"This law is very bad for us," says Sanchez, who gets about $250 a week cleaning three houses. "I'm afraid of what's going to happen."

She says the family is going to wait and see if the law takes effect and what the fallout will be before deciding whether to leave. The law is certain to be challenged in court; Phoenix, Tucson and Flagstaff already are considering lawsuits.

"All I ask from God is a miracle for us to stay here and work," she says.

---

Associated Press writer Bob Christie contributed to this report.

Edited April 29, 2010 by SMOKE

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

It's much cheaper to eliminate the problem than to let the problem persist. In the sense of resources/economic concerns, it is quite rational.

Now from a "humane" side of things it may not be, but I'm not one who worries all too much about the "humanitarian" side of things. Sometimes thinning the herd is quite necessary for the overall betterment of the herd itself.

I don't get you. How can you say such awful things with such seriousness? You are saying some very scary things in these threads. You advocate violence, you take a certain group of people and try to strip them of their humanity etc.

"Sometimes thinning the herd is quite necessary for the overall betterment of the herd itself" I mean look at what you are saying, its practically an argument for genocide.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

But how can you use reasonable suspicion with regards to illegal immigration? You can't use the person's race, their clothes, their language etc. The only thing I can think of is if tools for crossing the border are in sight etc.

That's where things get a bit dodgy, because if you don't have reason to stop or detain someone for an actual crime, like an assault or shoplifting etc. "I thought she/he was illegal" probably isn't going to be reason enough to constitute reasonable suspicion.

What you don't want is for the standard of reasonable suspicion to be lowered on a consistent basis for certain people.

Interestingly enough, everyone seems to have glossed over the opinion of the police officer described in the article. If anything, I'd have thought that would be pretty relevant.

[SMOKE 1,426]

I mean look at what you are saying, its practically an argument for genocide.

don't take things on the internet so seriously.

rob, i almost did it again.

Edited April 29, 2010 by SMOKE

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

That's where things get a bit dodgy, because if you don't have reason to stop or detain someone for an actual crime, like an assault or shoplifting etc. "I thought she/he was illegal" probably isn't going to be reason enough to constitute reasonable suspicion.

What you don't want is for the standard of reasonable suspicion to be lowered on a consistent basis for certain people.

Interestingly enough, everyone seems to have glossed over the opinion of the police officer described in the article. If anything, I'd have thought that would be pretty relevant.

This law would have been a lot more useful IMO if it just said the police have a duty to report all suspects arrested for a crime for a full background check that includes immigration and anyone found to be illegal will be handed over to Federal Authorites.

don't take things on the internet so seriously.

rob, i almost did it again.

Unless Paul says he was joking how else should I take it?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's much cheaper to eliminate the problem than to let the problem persist. In the sense of resources/economic concerns, it is quite rational.

No Paul. Your rhetoric isn't rational. First you use emotionally loaded language, and in the next breath you're suggesting that people be threatened with execution.

Clearly, you are emotionally compromised on this issue. You hate illegal immigrants and this hatred is reflected in the opinion you are promoting.

But OK Paul, you are a rational human being. If you want to delude yourself, nothing anyone else says is going to make a difference

Now from a "humane" side of things it may not be, but I'm not one who worries all too much about the "humanitarian" side of things. Sometimes thinning the herd is quite necessary for the overall betterment of the herd itself.

So am I to understand that rather than merely tell people that they will be killed if they return, you mean to suggest that they should actually be killed.

Again, how is this rational?

[The_Dude 1,142]

don't take things on the internet so seriously.

rob, i almost did it again.

Regarding the article, I think it hit the nail on the head.

"That's really the question, as to whether the existing population is willing to work those (low-level) jobs," Vest says. "I think economics provides the answer. If job openings have no applicants, then businesses need to address that by raising the offered wage."

A lot of the jobs held by illegal aliens are low paying unskilled labor. These jobs need to be filled and if the remaining labor pool is unwilling to fill them for the same rate, then wages will need to go up. Consequently, prices of the products and services they provide will also go up.....

[mawilson 2,133]

This law is a perfect example of what happens when you ignore a pressing problem for too long.

States and communities take matters into their own hands and implement draconian measures of dubious constitutionality.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

This law is a perfect example of what happens when you ignore a pressing problem for too long.

States and communities take matters into their own hands and implement draconian measures of dubious constitutionality.

True enough.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I don't get you. How can you say such awful things with such seriousness? You are saying some very scary things in these threads. You advocate violence, you take a certain group of people and try to strip them of their humanity etc.

"Sometimes thinning the herd is quite necessary for the overall betterment of the herd itself" I mean look at what you are saying, its practically an argument for genocide.

Yeah, I advocate certain degrees of genocide. No problem:

Convicted Murderers (where DNA evidence is for sure) - Kill em.

Convicted Sex Offenders - 2 strikes you're dead.

Continuous armed robbers - 4 strikes you're dead.

Entering the nation illegally - 2 strikes you're dead

Entering the nation illegally and then commit another crime - you're dead

We used to have no problems with hanging people, firing squads, chopping heads off, etc. for committing these crimes. We didn't become "sophisticated" because we stopped doing it, we just somewhere along the way got our balls chopped off.