Proving domicile when not living in the U.S.

[Dan and Ali 3]

1 should make note that the interview was in VANCOUVER, may be a different story in MOntreal

Oops, I thought I had said that in the post. My bad.

[trailmix 77]

Just bumping this info up

Update: Rod James was approved and his wife successfully proved reestablishing domicile review. The key piece of proof seems to be that Rod and his wife had sold their house in Canada. Rod's detailed original post regarding domicile is here

Udate: Two more denials at Montreal for proof of domicile, one approval (after initial denial).

Avery was approved, after her Husband moved back to the U.S. - thread here.

shaloma john Thread is here

neela828 Thread is here

Successful interview for Limbosage, the link below is his post detailing what he provided at the interview to prove reestablishing domicile. His wife (U.S. citizen) has been living in Canada since 2006.

That thread is here

jonesg111 Denied June 18th and again November 24th/2009, those threads are here and here (information from the 4th recent denial can be found in the second thread here, postings by nana1111).

Update from jonesg111 after contacting Senator's office

Lenie7 denied in November 2009 - that thread is here

Brocku00 Denied in August 2009 - thread here

Simstar successfully proved reestablishing domicile at her interview in October - thread here

A VJ member who successfully proved reestablishing domicile at their interview - kemijo

kemijo's interview review

Avery had her interview October 13th and was sent away to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile. That thread can be found here.

Other Canadian VJ members that have been asked to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile:

Shiri

Wowswift

kristinelder

jonesg111

ink

Also a couple of other threads in the Canada forum regarding domicile:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208699

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=212678

Edited January 29, 2010 by trailmix

[trailmix 77]

Adding a new review from chochamu - his wife successfully proved reestablishing domicile to the consulate in Montreal on February 1st, 2010

The review is here

Key pieces of evidence presented by them (kept by the CO)

Lease agreement with Aunt and Uncle

One way ticket itinerary

Canadian PR Card that expires one day after departure to U.S. (this is a good piece of evidence, but just for anyone reading this, you don't have to give up your PR in Canada)

Letter from Employer stating the the U.S. citizen had resigned and when her last day of work there would be.

Update: Rod James was approved and his wife successfully proved reestablishing domicile review. The key piece of proof seems to be that Rod and his wife had sold their house in Canada. Rod's detailed original post regarding domicile is here

Udate: Two more denials at Montreal for proof of domicile, one approval (after initial denial).

Avery was approved, after her Husband moved back to the U.S. - thread here.

shaloma john Thread is here

neela828 Thread is here

Successful interview for Limbosage, the link below is his post detailing what he provided at the interview to prove reestablishing domicile. His wife (U.S. citizen) has been living in Canada since 2006.

That thread is here

jonesg111 Denied June 18th and again November 24th/2009, those threads are here and here (information from the 4th recent denial can be found in the second thread here, postings by nana1111).

Update from jonesg111 after contacting Senator's office

Lenie7 denied in November 2009 - that thread is here

Brocku00 Denied in August 2009 - thread here

Simstar successfully proved reestablishing domicile at her interview in October - thread here

A VJ member who successfully proved reestablishing domicile at their interview - kemijo

kemijo's interview review

Avery had her interview October 13th and was sent away to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile. That thread can be found here.

Other Canadian VJ members that have been asked to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile:

Shiri

Wowswift

kristinelder

jonesg111

ink

Also a couple of other threads in the Canada forum regarding domicile:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208699

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=212678

Edited February 2, 2010 by trailmix

[mike777 0]

OK I'm bringing alive some old issues I have which I posted on this thread.

Question, my wifes interview is next week. I possess a Canadian Visitor Record as I "was" sleeping there (Canada)...

But I'm now living back at my parents at my US address and I just travel back and forth to visit my wife as it was when we were dating. So I'm sleeping in the US again, and working in the US, (I telecommute).

I called up one the bridges were I got my visitor record and I asked about voluntarily relinquishing my visitor record, they said just to come in and turn it in when I want. In essence, I no longer need it as I'm living here in the US again. And I'm afraid it could hurt us at interview time. So I want to ditch it. Then at the interview I'll be honest when they ask where I live, I get to say xxx, US. And she can say her place in Canada. Fine, no problems.

But on peoples opinions here, is it wise for me to ditch the visitor record? I know I can just tell them I'm visiting my wife again and I should have no problem. I have things such to prove my US domicile (voter record, current US drivers lic, phone records, pay stubs from employer and my employer recently typed out a letter for me, I also have a copy of a check put into escrow as an earnest check for a house we're waiting for bank approval for, and the contract for that house) But I don't want to, and I don't "plan" on whipping those documents out unless I specifically need to.

Having the visitor record is a gray area and I want to squash that gray area and make it completely black and white at interview time. So my question is, ..."get rid of it?" or no. I like having it as it gives me a little extra padding as far as ease of coming and going into Canada. And I'd rather not want to ditch it if I didn't have to... and even if I do ditch it, a.) at interview time, when they do their checks, does it reveal I have that status in Canada, or I wonder if their checks only are checking for PR's. b.) From what I see here, for most people, only the security guards at the door see the passports, they don't care what visas I have I'm sure, ..on that note, I don't "plan" on showing my passport during interview, unless specifically asked. c.) If I do relinquish my visitor status here, who knows how many days it takes to actually update in all the databases that they use.

So in summary, when it comes down to it, I'm planning on NOT having to even bother prove or reestablish domicile as I don't need to, as I'm living in the states.

Interviewer: where do you live? ME: US. Ok thanks, ask wife questions...heres your welcome to USA letter. Goodbye.

Interviewer: If they start "fishing", THEN I'd say something like, I live in the us...if you have a problem, I have documentation to show you...then I'd bring that stuff out. INTERVIEWER: great, thanks. welcome to usa, goodbye.

Is that going to work?

Opinions...thanks!

Edited February 23, 2010 by mike777

[trailmix 77]

I don't know what a visitor's record is.

That aside, your summary sounds just fine - it sounds fine because it is the truth and that is all you need to tell. Certainly if he asks for 'proof' that you are domiciled in the U.S., your info looks good, especially your employment evidence.

I personally don't see a problem.

As I mentioned, I don't know what a visitor's record is, but I can't see why you would have to relinquish it.

[mike777 0]

Hey TM.

A visitor record is a government issued visa basically for Canada. It gets stapled in one of my visa pages. It basically says. my name, birth date, it says, when this document was issued, and when it expires. It expires on July 30th this year, but I got it last July. It was granted to me for a year.

And it also specifically states on there that I cannot attend educational institution in Ca, and I cannot work for Can employer and I must leave Canada by July 30th.

And it says notes, "married to Canadian Citizen, sponsoring for permanent residency to USA".

Basically I needed it to move all my personal belongings into Canada when I came over with the Uhaul truck.

I doubt they would have let me over without it.

It also just makes it so I can "legally" be spending the night there.

I know I could stay without it for up to 6 months but this just makes it more, "official" I guess. And again, I think I really needed it to come across with my stuff. So right now, most of my belongings are in Canada, but I'm physically sleeping, spending my work day and therefore, most of my time in the US at my house.

I guess you can consider it like Visitor Visa, but it's not, the border guards specifically said its not a visa but a visitor record.

------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I'm wondering what if the interviewer happens to want to see my passport and they see the visitor record and they ask..."what's this?"

Then I say, well it was so I could legally be with my wife in Canada while the immigration process went through...then what are they going to say? That's what I'm worried about. As I was there for months.

I'm not worried that I can't produce evidence to show I'm in the US, but I just don't the opportunity for that discussion to have to happen, as I don't want the interviewer to even begin to think hes got a chance of denying us...

As I said though, I'm in the US now. So all in all, I don't think I'm going to even have to worry about domicile issues because I am telling the truth to them as I will say, I live in the US. But again, from reading all this stuff on here, I just get a little worried.

Just want to make sure everything is lined up as I don't want to have to send in further evidence and wait longer :-)

[trailmix 77]

Yes, I completely understand your concern.

As for the visitor document - my aren't we friendly!

You really seem to have thought this through and examined the different ways it can play out - but as I said, I understand your concern.

If you do get questioned about how much time you have spent in Canada and about the visitor's record - I see that you have 2 strong points to make:

- The visitor visa specifically states that you are a VISITOR - not a resident, you have no resident privileges, you can't work etc etc etc

- It states "Married to Canadian Citizen, sponsoring for permanent residency to USA".

So the second point is you got that visitor visa a year ago and the reason you got it was for easy visitation of your wife in Canada while applying for U.S. permanent residency. I think that speaks volumes about your intent.

But, the bottom line is you DO live in the U.S. and you work there and your principal residence is there.

[Sunny4567 0]

I am glad to see your posts throughout discussions of Domicile.

They are very helpful to say the least. However I must point out that

I would have the opposite advice to give. I seriously wish my lawyer

had told me to go back to the US and stay for a few months in the apartment I had rented there

before our interview at the Montreal Consulate. She was oblivious to the seriousness of proving Domicile

and even though I had no less than 4 bank accounts in the US and had only been out of the country for

18 months were were refused my husband's Visa. We have sent in the lease etc. now. But I wish my

lawyer had over reacted and told me to stay in the US for the interview and sent my husband to Montreal

on his own.

Also being a Permanent Resident of Canada can count against you in the issue of Domicile as

it proves that you were possibly intending to be out of the US for an extended period of time,

therefore making it harder to prove domicile.

Our interview guy said, "Think of it this way, you have two chairs. One it the Canada chair, and one

is the US chair. You have to prove that you are in the US chair." (brilliant, huh?) But permanent

residency in Canada shows that you are more in the Canada chair.

Of course, it also depends who interviews you.

If I was in the US at the time of my husbands interview, in our apartment there I would be in the "US chair".

The whole thing is a pain in the neck!!!

My first husband was British and we went through the interview in London in 1993.

We were in our 20's and we were not asked one question about proving my US Domicile.

Boy, how things have changed.

The other thing I think is so bizarre is if you are a US born Citizen why should you have to prove Domicile?

How silly! If you were born in the US and spent your life there, obviously you have ties.

I could understand if I had no money, lived out of the US for 5 years or more and was a naturalized US Citizen

born in Ireland or somewhere. But this Domicile thing is so crazy for US born Citizens. Makes you feel like

an alien!

Thanks for listening!

No, I personally don't think it's a valid concern, the new PR issue. I don't really see why it would be? Your Husband applying for you to immigrate to the U.S. should have nothing to do with him being a PR of Canada - new or not.

I can't pretend to know what your lawyer was thinking or why she advised him to move back to the U.S. - at a guess I would say she is just not really familiar with domicile. The 'you must be physically present in the U.S. to prove domicile' thing is a mistake people make when skimming over the instructions for the

I-864 - not a mistake a well informed lawyer should have made - in my opinion.

At the VERY least, a good lawyer would have explained all your options, as in - well he can move back to the U.S. before you and proving domicile will be simple - however if he wishes to stay with you in Canada while your application is being processed - here is what you need to do.

If you and your Husband decide that he will move back to Canada to wait, please let us know, there are no doubt items he can bring and things he can do while he is still in the U.S. to ensure his domicile is not an issue.

<a href="http://www.uscis.gov/propub/template.htm?view=document&doc_action=sethitdoc&doc_hit=1&doc_searchcontext=jump&s_context=jump&s_action=newSearch&s_method=applyFilter&s_fieldSearch=nxthomecollectionid|AFM&s_fieldSearch=foliodestination|chapter%2020.5&s_type=all&hash=0-0-0-524" target="_blank"><!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro-->Adjudicator's Field Manual - Redacted Public Version \ Chapter 20 Immigrants in General \ Enforceable Affidavits of Support.[Revised as of 06/27/2006]. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></a>

If the sponsor is not domiciled in the United States, the sponsor can still sign and submit a Form I-864 so long as the sponsor satisfies the Department of State officer, immigration officer, or immigration judge, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the sponsor will establish a domicile in the United States on or before the date of the principal intending immigrant’s admission or adjustment of status. The intending immigrant will be inadmissible under section 212(a)(4) of the Act, and the intending immigrant’s application for admission or adjustment of status must be denied, if the sponsor has not, in fact, established a domicile in the United States on or before the date of the decision on the principal application for admission at a U.S. port of entry on an immigrant visa or adjustment of status.

In the case of a sponsor who comes to the United States intending to establish his or her principal residence in the United States at the same time as the principal intending immigrant’s arrival and application for admission at a port-of-entry, the sponsor shall be deemed to have established a domicile in the United States for purposes of this paragraph.

[Sunny4567 0]

How did your interview go?

We had ours in Montreal and were denied because of

lack of Domicile. We were totally oblivious as our lawyer

did not prepare us for this AT ALL!

Would like to hear how your interview went.

Best to you.

Oh boy, after reading the problems so many seem to be having I don't think we have a chance.

I'm a USC and a PR of Canada since 2004. We were married in 99' and I've been living with my husband in Canada since 2001. We started this process in 2007 but we were so dang confused and reluctant to be apart during the process we didn't finish it until now. Now we have a son and its just that much more important we stay together.

To prove I intend to reestablish domicile we have:

A US checking and savings account I opened when we visited my family for Christmas last month.

A US funds account with our Canadian bank.

We have our 7 month old son's certificate of birth abroad, his US passport. We applied for his SSN and it should arrive in a couple of weeks.

I have already sent a letter from my parents confirming they are opening their home to us.

I've already sent a U-haul rental quote.

I'm sure this isn't going to be enough. I'm convinced we will be denied.

Is our only option left for me and our son to move down now before the interview?

[Jeremy&Kathy 4]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post after reading tons of great information and stories from all of you on VJ. It has all been EXTREMELY helpful so thank you all so much for sharing! I am now facing uncertainty about providing proof of domicile, at the time that I mail my AOS to the NVC. But first, a quick history:

I'm a US citizen but I've lived in Canada for 26 years (since I was 8). I'm a dual citizen of US/Canada in fact. My father is dual and my mother is Canadian. I am married now, living in Vancouver with my wife and 2 year old son. Last summer on a vacation to the US, we fell in love with Boulder, CO and decided we want to live there. It didn't take long to find employment there and I received a job offer in August 2009, but it required me to start within 2 months. At the time I was totally naive, having no clue about the time it takes for family immigration!

We discovered that the visa journey would take at least 8 months. I declined the job offer to stay with my family in Canada and wait out the process. We filed I-130's for both of them in September. All has gone smoothly and our case was transferred from USCIS to the NVC.

I recently received the next email from the NVC requesting me to send them the I-864, Affidavit of Support. I have done lots of reading and VJ has been particularly helpful in understanding the domicile requirement, which is now my main concern. Like many of you I fall under the category of needing to prove that I'm "re-establishing domicile".

Now for the problem. The NVC has instructed me to mail them my AOS now, with supporting proof and documents. To give the strongest proof I can (for re-establishing domicile), I want to provide a job offer accepted, and a rental lease agreement signed. However, they have not sent our case to the Montreal consulate yet and we don't know our visa interview date. The same employer still wants to hire me but is reluctant to provide a job offer with a start date more than 6 weeks away. Also, it is difficult to find an apartment to rent that is available more that 2 months in the future!

Based on the information I found in the VJ timeline, it looks like a few weeks after sending my AOS before our case moves to the Montreal consulate, a few more before we get our visa interview date, and the visa interview date is often 1-2 months out from the date that it was assigned. So my estimate is that our visa interview date will probably be in June. Have I estimated correctly?

There is just no way that I can get a job offer today with a start date that far in the future. Ditto for an apartment lease. I am worried that if I mail them my AOS and don't provide these items of proof, they will give me an RFE and request these items before transferring our case to the Montreal consulate. Do people ever get RFE on these items at this stage?

I was thinking about writing a cover letter that explains my situation, including the old (unaccepted) job offer from last year, and state my intention to have a new job offer and lease agreement with me by the time of our visa interview.

Will this suffice? Any other recommendations for how I can deal with this point in the process?

Much thanks,

Jeremy

[Sunny4567 0]

Hi Jeremy-

I just saw this and wanted to write a quick response.

I am a US Citizen who has only been out of the US for 18 months living in Canada with my

Canadian husband. We just had our interview in Montreal last Wednesday which we failed due to Domicile.

My best advice is to move down to the US ahead of your wife as soon as possible and secure an apartment and a job.

While you will read a lot of threads on here that say it is not necessary to move to the US to secure Domicile (and it shouldn't be).

If makes the whole process go so much smoother and easier. It certainly will be difficult to be away from

your family, however if you go to your interview with proof of a job and a place to live in the US you should have no

complications. You will see time and time again on here that people fail to get a Visa due to prof of Domicile.

If I had known that all I had to do to secure Domicile was head down to the US a few months ahead of the interview in

Montreal and live in the apartment I had already rented there for us, ( I have adequate financial assets, so the job isn't

as important) I would have easily done it. We our now held up for who knows how long, and my Canadian husband actually

has a job offer in the US, so this is very frustrating.

I also have a lawyer who thought my finances in the US would be enough to establish domicile.

She was SO wrong. They wanted to see a lease, and wouldn't take anything else.

Best of luck,

Sunny

[Sunny4567 0]

One more thing. Usually the AOS is just about proving the finances. The proof of

Domicile came up at the actual interview in Montreal. The only info I provided in the AOS was

a US address and all my bank statements/finacnces. I didn't send in any supporting documents for domicile

at that point. (Mostly because I didn't know any better and my lawyer was sure that my

healthy financial situation would be enough). My AOS was approved with no problem even

though there was no real Domicile documents included. So in that case, proving you

have a job in the US would be the first step in your AOS, unless you have very substantial

savings account. When you go to the interview they will want to see proof of the job

and proof of your residence in the US. (lease, driver's license, voter registration etc.)

So I would guess it would be essential for you to take the job in the US ahead of time.

As you need to prove that you can support your family when they move to the US.

It would be so much easier to prove domicile if you have established a residence there with

utilities, driver's license etc.

If that isn't possible, you would have to work on documents that show your separation

from Canada. Proof of giving up home, job, medical. At the very least a lease to

a place to live in the US would be essential if you haven't yet started the job.

I can't say how much I wish I had read VJ posts about domicile before my interview in Montreal.

I had all the necessary documentation, just no idea that I needed to take it. And you can

bet I was furious with my lawyer!

Hope this helps!

Edited March 24, 2010 by Sunny4567

[Lenie7 0]

Yes, Montreal is a stickler for domicile and they are especially harsh on Americans who have permanent residence in Canada. I had my Canadian PR for a year, and told them that I had tried living there for my husband's job (which is important to him), but wanted to move back near my family. He said he believed that I wanted to move back to the U.S., but still refused to issue the visa to my husband.

I have always maintained that no one would go through the difficulties of applying for U.S. immigration if they had no intention of living there. I mean, who would put themselves through the torture? Though we were denied in November, we have just submitted proof of domicile (I moved back in January). Much like others, I wish I knew the things I do now about the domicile issue. I would have moved back sooner and let my husband go to the interview by himself.

[trailmix 77]

Adding an update on Jonesg111. He was denied his visa in June of 2009 for lack of proof of domicile, the original post can be found in a link below. His visa has now been sent, the update post on that can be found here.

Mike777 successfully proved domicile, interview March 3rd (note: he actually does live in the U.S. but spends a lot of time in Canada). His review is found at the bottom of the page here.

Interview from chochamu - his wife successfully proved reestablishing domicile to the consulate in Montreal on February 1st, 2010

The review is here

Key pieces of evidence presented by them (kept by the CO)

Lease agreement with Aunt and Uncle

One way ticket itinerary

Canadian PR Card that expires one day after departure to U.S. (this is a good piece of evidence, but just for anyone reading this, you don't have to give up your PR in Canada)

Letter from Employer stating the the U.S. citizen had resigned and when her last day of work there would be.

Update: Rod James was approved and his wife successfully proved reestablishing domicile review. The key piece of proof seems to be that Rod and his wife had sold their house in Canada. Rod's detailed original post regarding domicile is here

Udate: Two more denials at Montreal for proof of domicile, one approval (after initial denial).

Avery was approved, after her Husband moved back to the U.S. - thread here.

shaloma john Thread is here

neela828 Thread is here

Successful interview for Limbosage, the link below is his post detailing what he provided at the interview to prove reestablishing domicile. His wife (U.S. citizen) has been living in Canada since 2006.

That thread is here

jonesg111 Denied June 18th and again November 24th/2009, those threads are here and here (information from the 4th recent denial can be found in the second thread here, postings by nana1111).

Update from jonesg111 after contacting Senator's office

Lenie7 denied in November 2009 - that thread is here

Brocku00 Denied in August 2009 - thread here

Simstar successfully proved reestablishing domicile at her interview in October - thread here

A VJ member who successfully proved reestablishing domicile at their interview - kemijo

kemijo's interview review

Avery had her interview October 13th and was sent away to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile. That thread can be found here.

Other Canadian VJ members that have been asked to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile:

Shiri

Wowswift

kristinelder

jonesg111

ink

Also a couple of other threads in the Canada forum regarding domicile:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208699

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=212678

Edited March 24, 2010 by trailmix

[trailmix 77]

There is just no way that I can get a job offer today with a start date that far in the future. Ditto for an apartment lease. I am worried that if I mail them my AOS and don't provide these items of proof, they will give me an RFE and request these items before transferring our case to the Montreal consulate. Do people ever get RFE on these items at this stage?

Hi Jeremy,

To answer your first question, yes, I got an RFE for more proof of domicile from NVC. At that point I was just taking a stab in the dark. I had read the I-864 instructions and knew that domicile was a key item - I just had no idea what they would want. As you have probably read from my first blurb in this thread, I gathered what I hoped would be enough evidence and sent it. Couple of weeks later I had an RFE, not enough proof of domicile. I can only say that whomever reviewed our I-864 at NVC was experienced, because they also requested my Canadian tax returns for the last 3 years - to ensure my U.S. tax returns matched up. (that's pretty unusual btw, just don't want you to think you need to send your Canadian returns).

So, the old job offer and a letter of explanation - MIGHT get you through NVC, no one can say. My opinion is that it is not worth holding up your file for it. I personally think you need to send more than that. You have read this thread so you have an idea of other things you can do and really you should. Think about sending at least 5 pieces of evidence.

You don't often hear of people getting RFEs for proof of domicile at the NVC stage - but it might be a good thing if it did happen.

The reason why? You are kind of assuming that you will get to the interview and a very calm and obliging CO will look over your file and discuss it with you. That you will then have the opportunity to present your documents and explain your plans. That is probably not going to be the case. COs are busy and in general 98% of the time it is 1 guy in Montreal that does CR1/IR1 interviews that involve domicile. You need to front load that AOS with as much information as you can get. You should also send a cover page that stands out (to NVC) so that the CO in Montreal can clearly see what you have sent, so that he will have time to review it BEFORE you show up for your interview. And the number one thing to do is to clearly state that you are reestablishing domicile - never just use the word - 'domicile'.

I won't go in to all the recommendations of things to gather again, they are in this thread and you have probably already seen them. But if you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask!

Edited March 24, 2010 by trailmix