Are Personals Web Sites considered Marriage Brokers?

[Teachers 12]

In the recent thread on IMBRA,

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31286

there is a definition of a marriage broker:

(4) INTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER

.—

(A) IN GENERAL .—The term ‘‘international marriage broker’’ means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the United States, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between United States citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States as permanent residents and foreign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals.

( EXCEPTIONS

.—Such term does not include—

(i) a traditional matchmaking organization of a cultural or religious nature that operates on a nonprofit

basis and otherwise operates in compliance with the laws of the countries in which it operates, including

the laws of the United States; or

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

---

By this definition, it seems to me that anyone who met on a personals website, including in a chat room, used an International Marriage Broker.

I would welcome other opinions.

Tom

[rebeccajo 14]

It does? IMHO not if you read the exceptions.

I'm only a lay person, but I don't get that meeting in chat constitutes a broker at all. It would seem to me the key phrase is "charges fees".

By meeting in chat I'm referring to Yahoo chat, etc. or any room where you don't pay a fee to belong. Much different than Yahoo Personals.

Edited September 11, 2006 by rebeccajo

[GaryC 7]

Luz and I met through Yahoo! Personals. I answered no to the IMBRA question. We got our NOA2. So not all personals sites are IMB's.

[Caladan 19]

I don't think so, and here is why:

If you look at 4(A)(ii) it indicates that *dating* isn't what makes the site a marriage broker, nor simply paying fees, but *asymmetry* of fees and contact information dependent on the person's country of origin & gender. So a dating site where both couples pay $50 and can meet anyone from any country would not be a marriage broker; one where the woman pays nothing and the American man pays $50 to meet her or others like her and is focused on matching people up with Americans (or Americans with a specific ethnic group) does.

Like all laws, there's a sense in which it doesn't mean anything until it goes through a courtroom and there's judicial precedent, but I would be very surprised if the law decided that World of Warcraft counted as a dating service. (Not a lawyer, for what it's worth.)

Addendum: Except in cases where, of course, there's an overriding cultural reason to use a matchmaker; these ones are exempt, but according to the I-129F, seem to need to meet strict criteria.

An overriding cultural reason isn't, of course, according to 4(A)(i), just 'I think Asian girls are teh hott!!11!', but something like 'I'm from Xwhere and we used the traditional matchmaker in our town to find me someone because in our culture couples don't date before marriage.'

[Mew 0]

It does? IMHO not if you read the exceptions.

I'm only a lay person, but I don't get that meeting in chat constitutes a broker at all. It would seem to me the key phrase is "charges fees".

By meeting in chat I'm referring to Yahoo chat, etc. or any room where you don't pay a fee to belong. Much different than Yahoo Personals.

Also, there's the exception (ii) to be examined if any fees are charged.

[YuAndDan 153]

I met my fiancee on Cherry Blossoms, which is an international dating service based in Hawaii.

I emailed Cherry Blossoms with a question regarding IMBRA.

This is the email I got from them:

While we do not consider our company a marriage agency because we do not charge the women nor do we charge couples that end up marrying that meet on our web site. But our government has written a very broad definition of Marriage Broker so we will leave it up to you what to fill in.

Not sure if it hinders your petition to state that you used a marriage broker or not.

Sorry for the ambiguity but this law is an odd item. If you say you did not use a marriage broker you should let your Fiancée know so that at her interview she does not mention Cherry Blossoms.

Would suggest you call the USCIS and ask for clarification: 800-375-5283, at the voice prompts push, 1, 3, 4, & 9 to get to the correct department.

Over 200 of our clients called the USCIS and spoken to agents (it can be a long hold on the phone – hour or more) and all but two have reported that they were told Cherry Blossoms is not a Marriage Broker. You may want to call to confirm.

Aloha

Duane

CB Staff

So I did list them on the line on I-129F page 3 anyway, and as you can see it did not slow my petition at USCIS VSC

I feel that is best to be honest when filling this document out is best.

[Swamped 0]

What Rebeccajo said above. Pay particular attention to the "exceptions." I used AsiaEuro. They do not consider their site as a marriage broker. A marriage broker is some company or someone who charges you money (quite a lot) to hook you up with a potential spouse. Most dating/personal sites do not do that. Usually you pay a fee, but you are free to choose or write to whomever you wish.

[Teachers 12]

What Rebeccajo said above. Pay particular attention to the "exceptions." I used AsiaEuro. They do not consider their site as a marriage broker. A marriage broker is some company or someone who charges you money (quite a lot) to hook you up with a potential spouse. Most dating/personal sites do not do that. Usually you pay a fee, but you are free to choose or write to whomever you wish.

I really appreciate all the feedback. The precise definition was particularly welcome.

I don't consider a Personals web site, including one where one has the option of not paying, a "Marriage Broker". However, I can imagine someone out on a crusade taking a different view.

Again, thanks to all for the information and informative discussion.

Tom

[garya505 2]

What Rebeccajo said above. Pay particular attention to the "exceptions." I used AsiaEuro. They do not consider their site as a marriage broker. A marriage broker is some company or someone who charges you money (quite a lot) to hook you up with a potential spouse. Most dating/personal sites do not do that. Usually you pay a fee, but you are free to choose or write to whomever you wish.

I really appreciate all the feedback. The precise definition was particularly welcome.

I don't consider a Personals web site, including one where one has the option of not paying, a "Marriage Broker". However, I can imagine someone out on a crusade taking a different view.

Again, thanks to all for the information and informative discussion.

Tom

The best course of action is to say YES if you are not sure, as USCIS can't even decide who and who is not an IMB. If you say NO and they decide it was an IMB, then they could say you lied.

Yes, some of them ARE on a crusade (i.e. Maria Cantwell).

[Mew 0]

What Rebeccajo said above. Pay particular attention to the "exceptions." I used AsiaEuro. They do not consider their site as a marriage broker. A marriage broker is some company or someone who charges you money (quite a lot) to hook you up with a potential spouse. Most dating/personal sites do not do that. Usually you pay a fee, but you are free to choose or write to whomever you wish.

This is not the legal definition of an international marriage broker. See the first post.

[GREEN/TRAN 0]

In the recent thread on IMBRA,

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31286

there is a definition of a marriage broker:

(4) INTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER

.—

(A) IN GENERAL .—The term ‘‘international marriage broker’’ means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the United States, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between United States citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States as permanent residents and foreign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals.

( EXCEPTIONS

.—Such term does not include—

(i) a traditional matchmaking organization of a cultural or religious nature that operates on a nonprofit

basis and otherwise operates in compliance with the laws of the countries in which it operates, including

the laws of the United States; or

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

---

By this definition, it seems to me that anyone who met on a personals website, including in a chat room, used an International Marriage Broker.

I would welcome other opinions.

Tom

I WOULD THINK A CHAT ROOM ISNT A MARRAIGE BROKER IF THATS THE CASE IF YOU GO TO A MALL AND MEET A GIRL THERE IS THAT MALL A MARRIAGE BROKER.I MET MY GIRL ON YAHOO VIETNAM CHAT UNDER THE LAUGAGE CATAGORY ,AS MANY PEOPLE THERE THEY ARE JUST LLOOKING FOR PASS THE TIME AND WE WAS ONLY FRIEND WITH NO INTENTIONS FOR ABOUT 6 MONTHES I TALKED TO MEN AND WOMAN ALIKE WITH NO INTENT .SO I SAY IF I DIDNT SIGN UP AND PAY TO MEET SOME ONE TO MARRY ITS NOT A MARRAGE BROKER

[rebeccajo 14]

What Rebeccajo said above. Pay particular attention to the "exceptions." I used AsiaEuro. They do not consider their site as a marriage broker. A marriage broker is some company or someone who charges you money (quite a lot) to hook you up with a potential spouse. Most dating/personal sites do not do that. Usually you pay a fee, but you are free to choose or write to whomever you wish.

Again this is a lay opinion only but I would consider the payment of any fee, no matter how small, to possibly constitute brokerage.

[Teachers 12]

I WOULD THINK A CHAT ROOM ISNT A MARRAIGE BROKER IF THATS THE CASE IF YOU GO TO A MALL AND MEET A GIRL THERE IS THAT MALL A MARRIAGE BROKER.I MET MY GIRL ON YAHOO VIETNAM CHAT UNDER THE LAUGAGE CATAGORY ,AS MANY PEOPLE THERE THEY ARE JUST LLOOKING FOR PASS THE TIME AND WE WAS ONLY FRIEND WITH NO INTENTIONS FOR ABOUT 6 MONTHES I TALKED TO MEN AND WOMAN ALIKE WITH NO INTENT .SO I SAY IF I DIDNT SIGN UP AND PAY TO MEET SOME ONE TO MARRY ITS NOT A MARRAGE BROKER

I agree - in your case. But there are personals web sites, often paid, where there are several possible purposes, one of which is to meet someone for a relationship. Then the answer is far from clear.

Does anyone know if the fees structure for something like Yahoo Personals is similar (in dollar terms or relative to average income) across different countries?

Tom

[garya505 2]

What we think is a marriage broker is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what IMBRA defines as an IMB, what USCIS thinks is an IMB as defined by IMBRA, and whether USCIS think the law has been complied with in each case.

[aussiewench 9]

What Rebeccajo said above. Pay particular attention to the "exceptions." I used AsiaEuro. They do not consider their site as a marriage broker. A marriage broker is some company or someone who charges you money (quite a lot) to hook you up with a potential spouse. Most dating/personal sites do not do that. Usually you pay a fee, but you are free to choose or write to whomever you wish.

Again this is a lay opinion only but I would consider the payment of any fee, no matter how small, to possibly constitute brokerage.

Not if the fee is payable by anyone regardless of gender of country of nationality and many meeting sites fall into this category.