Proving domicile when not living in the U.S.

[trailmix 77]

In the Montreal timeline to interview thread we are having a discussion about proving domicile when both the sponsor and the intending immigrant are living in Canada. I know i'm not the only one who has done this and I decided to start a new thread so the information would not be lost in the other thread. Here is an excerpt:

ratfinkgrad @ Nov 30 2008, 09:52 AM

Here's our situation: my husband became a PR of Canada recently because we thought we could wait out the US immigration thing together. He plans on attending a university down south and I plan on being there too, obviously. Would application forms and/or acceptance letters to universities be considered good proof of plans on living in the US long term ie. domicile? All this we made clear to the lawyer, but she still told him it's best move back down there. Is it because of how recently he became a PR of Canada?

You are very welcome! No, he didn't have to leave and your immigration lawyer is ..... wrong, but that's not surprising as many people have experienced that. I am sure there are good lawyers out there though.

I was born in Canada, I have dual citizenship through my parents, I have never lived in the United States before now - however I proved domicile. I know this information doesn't help you one iota at this point, however if someone else is reading this for the first time I hope they see it before their Husband or Wife actually leaves the country.

Good luck to you!

to_hope, congrats on getting out of NVC!!

Edited May 16, 2010 by trailmix

[trailmix 77]

Absolutely not, your lawyer is just wrong, she doesn't know what she is talking about.

Yes, the letters/application forms are all great evidence of domicile. It's kind of a moot point now since he will actually be physically living there, so I assume he will have his driver's license, car insurance, maybe a bill or two in his name with his U.S. address etc etc.

Proving domicile when he is actually living there should be a piece of cake really.

I wasn't going to bother posting the whole domicile information thing - since it won't really help you at this point, however, I can see that you are questioning the validity of what your lawyer told you and you will probably find this information useful - so here goes.

If you look at the instructions for the I-864, although they are not easy to interpret, they do outline the basics of proving domicile:

15. Country of Domicile. This question is asking you to indicate the country where you maintain your principal residence and where you plan to reside for the foreseeable future. If your mailing address and/or place of residence is not in the United States, but your country of domicile is the United States, you must attach a written explanation and documentary evidence indicating how you meet the domicile requirement. If you are not currently living in the United States, you may meet the domicile requirement if you can submit evidence to establish that any of the following conditions apply:

A. You are employed by a certain organization. (lists organizations on the I-864)

B. You are living abroad temporarily. If you are not currently living in the United States, you must show that your trip abroad is temporary and that you have maintained your domicile in the United States. You can show this by providing proof of your voting record in the United States, proof of paying U.S. State or local taxes, proof of having property in the United States, proof of maintaining bank or investment accounts in the United States, or proof of having a permanent mailing address in the United States. Other proof could be evidence that you are a student studying abroad or that a foreign government has authorized a temporary stay.

C. You intend in good faith to reestablish your domicile in the United States no later than the date of the intending immigrant's admission or adjustment of status. You must submit proof that you have taken concrete steps to establish you will be domiciled in the United States at a time no later than the date of the intending immigrant's admission or adjustment of status. Concrete steps might include accepting a job in the United States, signing a lease or purchasing a residence in the United States, or registering children in U.S. schools. Please attach proof of the steps you have taken to establish domicile as described above.

So what does all this mean?

When you look at the instructions above it makes it obvious that the sponsor can prove domicile even if they are not physically residing in the United States.

For most people who are temporarily abroad and fall under category B - it's pretty transparent - should not be too hard to prove domicile if you have only been out of the U.S. for a few months for example.

However, what if you and your spouse are living together in another country, like Canada - this is where Item C comes in.

All they are asking under this category is that you intend in good faith to reestablish your domicile in the U.S. - basically, at the same time as, or before the immigrant.

This applies equally to sponsors who have never lived in the U.S. - which is where it can be misleading - how can you 'reestablish' something that you never physically established in the first place?

The bottom line is domicile, for U.S. immigration purposes, does not mean that you have to physically be in the U.S.

So how do you go about proving C?

All I can tell you is what we did (and neither one of us had lived in the U.S. prior to immigrating). Really you just have to think through what would prove that you are intending to move to the U.S. with the new immigrant. This will mean different documentation for different situations, but basically this is what we sent in (in total - initially we did not send enough proof of reestablishing domicile and received an RFE from NVC for more):

- A letter from my Sister in Nebraska, stating that we would be living in the U.S. with them after my Husband received his visa and that we had come to an agreement regarding money for accommodation. She also stated that they should feel free to call her if they had any questions.

- I opened a U.S. bank account with my Sister in Nebraska and deposited a small sum of money there. I sent along a bank statement from them.

- We opened a U.S. dollar account with a Canadian bank and moved most of our funds there.

- We applied in March of 2007. We sold our rental property in January of 2007 - we sent letters from our lawyer stating we had sold that house.

- An online quote from Upack for shipping our goods from Calgary to Nebraska.

- A copy of the letter of acknowlegement from the SS office, stating I had applied for my SSN in March 2007 and the card should arrive in 2 weeks.

That's about all I can think of. There may have been a couple of other documents.

So you can see how this all goes back to putting yourself in the mindset to figure out what might prove domicle in your situation - a voting record, applications to schools etc. I believe it would be much easier to prove if the sponsor had actually lived there before and already had established bank accounts etc.

It's all about saying...hey, we are moving! - then documenting everything required for that move, as well as providing documentation of ties to the U.S.

Edited November 30, 2008 by trailmix

[wowswift 3]

trailmix is right. The CO said I can register to school to send that in to prove my domicile. I'm still getting everything together, but on Monday or Tuesday, I'm sending a rental agreement with my mother, school registration, bank statements, voter packet (i don't have a registration card for voting, but I have all the forms they sent), car title (might send car insurance too). Might get more, but that's what I have so far. I did have my bank statements and voter info at the interview, but she wasn't interested and just said to fax or mail it in.

[MrsCat 6]

just curious - is this a pinnable topic? sounds like something that comes up time to time yet obscure enough that not everyone is knowledgeable about it to answer if someone posts.

[wowswift 3]

i got my list ready. i don't have an offical school thing though yet, but this is what i have

1. signed rental agreement with my mother

2. student data sheet for daughter in california

3. proof of california car insurance

4. voter information packet from placer county that has name, addy, and voting place

5. my class schedule for school

6. most recent bank statement so far. i dunno how many i should include but i have them all. haven't decided on that one yet lol

[ratfinkgrad 1]

YES pin this please!!!! I want my husband to read this too.

All those points are really really good. I wish I had brought them up with the lawyer we talked with. I think that my husband applying for schools in the US is good enough freaking proof that we intend on living there. However, my husband did only very recently become a PR of Canada. Would this fact make them think twice about granting me PR status for America? As in, "well why did he become a PR of Canada if you intend on settling in the US, hmmmmmm?" Do you think this is a valid concern and do you think this could be why the lawyer advised us to send him back down to the US to establish his domicile?

Is this lawyer completely dumb or actually very smart and perceptive and trying to save us the hassle of getting my visa denied because of "domicile"?

Thanks again! I'm glad there's a thread for this now. My husband can come back up to Canada anytime he wants. I know he's pretty unhappy right now which is really breaking my heart. As soon as I can feel confident in my knowledge of this topic, maybe get a second opinion from another lawyer, I'm going to try and have him return to me.

[trailmix 77]

No, I personally don't think it's a valid concern, the new PR issue. I don't really see why it would be? Your Husband applying for you to immigrate to the U.S. should have nothing to do with him being a PR of Canada - new or not.

I can't pretend to know what your lawyer was thinking or why she advised him to move back to the U.S. - at a guess I would say she is just not really familiar with domicile. The 'you must be physically present in the U.S. to prove domicile' thing is a mistake people make when skimming over the instructions for the

I-864 - not a mistake a well informed lawyer should have made - in my opinion.

At the VERY least, a good lawyer would have explained all your options, as in - well he can move back to the U.S. before you and proving domicile will be simple - however if he wishes to stay with you in Canada while your application is being processed - here is what you need to do.

If you and your Husband decide that he will move back to Canada to wait, please let us know, there are no doubt items he can bring and things he can do while he is still in the U.S. to ensure his domicile is not an issue.

Adjudicator's Field Manual - Redacted Public Version \ Chapter 20 Immigrants in General \ Enforceable Affidavits of Support.[Revised as of 06/27/2006].

If the sponsor is not domiciled in the United States, the sponsor can still sign and submit a Form I-864 so long as the sponsor satisfies the Department of State officer, immigration officer, or immigration judge, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the sponsor will establish a domicile in the United States on or before the date of the principal intending immigrant’s admission or adjustment of status. The intending immigrant will be inadmissible under section 212(a)(4) of the Act, and the intending immigrant’s application for admission or adjustment of status must be denied, if the sponsor has not, in fact, established a domicile in the United States on or before the date of the decision on the principal application for admission at a U.S. port of entry on an immigrant visa or adjustment of status.

In the case of a sponsor who comes to the United States intending to establish his or her principal residence in the United States at the same time as the principal intending immigrant’s arrival and application for admission at a port-of-entry, the sponsor shall be deemed to have established a domicile in the United States for purposes of this paragraph.

Edited December 2, 2008 by trailmix

[ratfinkgrad 1]

In the case of a sponsor who comes to the United States intending to establish his or her principal residence in the United States at the same time as the principal intending immigrant’s arrival and application for admission at a port-of-entry, the sponsor shall be deemed to have established a domicile in the United States for purposes of this paragraph.

Oh my god this looks to me like all he needs to do is move with me when I get my visa! This is really driving me insane. I almost wanna go see this lawyer again with all this new information but I don't have a spare 300 bucks to spend

[trailmix 77]

In the case of a sponsor who comes to the United States intending to establish his or her principal residence in the United States at the same time as the principal intending immigrant’s arrival and application for admission at a port-of-entry, the sponsor shall be deemed to have established a domicile in the United States for purposes of this paragraph.

Oh my god this looks to me like all he needs to do is move with me when I get my visa! This is really driving me insane. I almost wanna go see this lawyer again with all this new information but I don't have a spare 300 bucks to spend

You are reading this correctly ratfin - that is the intent of what they are saying and it goes back to the things I wrote about proving you are moving back.

[trailmix 77]

bump

I just realized I left an i out of the word domicile in the topic title.

Edited December 17, 2008 by trailmix

[MacDude 0]

Hello everyone... Thanks for all the great information on this forum... wish i would have discovered it before visiting my @#$% lawyer... dont want to make a long story short, so here goes:

My wife is an American citizen and has been living in Canada for many years. We met here (i.e. Canada), got married and are now both living here while I finish my MBA. We want to move to the US, and so I have already filled my paperwork and even had my interview with a consulate agent, but they sent me home citing that I did not provide evidence that my wife is domiciled or has taken concrete steps to prove she will be domiciled in the US on or before the date I intend to enter.

I have made a list of the documents that intend to submit to the consulate to prove her intentions. I plan to send the following:

1. Offer of employment as of May 1, 2009, as well as her acceptance of this offer
2. Her 2007 tax returns (although there is not much income; but my father in law is a co-sponsor... his tax returns have already been submitted)
3. A letter from the bank (or a bank statement) showing that she has an account in the US with some money
4. A letter from her parents stating that we will be living with them for the time being and that there is ample room for us

Is this sufficient evidence to support our claim that she is setting up domicile in the US?

Any suggestions/advice is more than welcome!

Thank you in advance!!

AN

[trailmix 77]

Hello everyone... Thanks for all the great information on this forum... wish i would have discovered it before visiting my @#$% lawyer... dont want to make a long story short, so here goes:

My wife is an American citizen and has been living in Canada for many years. We met here (i.e. Canada), got married and are now both living here while I finish my MBA. We want to move to the US, and so I have already filled my paperwork and even had my interview with a consulate agent, but they sent me home citing that I did not provide evidence that my wife is domiciled or has taken concrete steps to prove she will be domiciled in the US on or before the date I intend to enter.

I have made a list of the documents that intend to submit to the consulate to prove her intentions. I plan to send the following:

1. Offer of employment as of May 1, 2009, as well as her acceptance of this offer
2. Her 2007 tax returns (although there is not much income; but my father in law is a co-sponsor... his tax returns have already been submitted)
3. A letter from the bank (or a bank statement) showing that she has an account in the US with some money
4. A letter from her parents stating that we will be living with them for the time being and that there is ample room for us

Is this sufficient evidence to support our claim that she is setting up domicile in the US?

Any suggestions/advice is more than welcome!

Thank you in advance!!

AN

Hi there,

That looks pretty darn good. If you want to include 1 more thing that is free to obtain, why not include a moving estimate? Just go to http://www.upack.com/ - fill in your details and they will email you one, which you can then print off - and they won't even send you any junk mail

Edited March 21, 2009 by trailmix

[MacDude 0]

Hello everyone... Thanks for all the great information on this forum... wish i would have discovered it before visiting my @#$% lawyer... dont want to make a long story short, so here goes:

My wife is an American citizen and has been living in Canada for many years. We met here (i.e. Canada), got married and are now both living here while I finish my MBA. We want to move to the US, and so I have already filled my paperwork and even had my interview with a consulate agent, but they sent me home citing that I did not provide evidence that my wife is domiciled or has taken concrete steps to prove she will be domiciled in the US on or before the date I intend to enter.

I have made a list of the documents that intend to submit to the consulate to prove her intentions. I plan to send the following:

1. Offer of employment as of May 1, 2009, as well as her acceptance of this offer
2. Her 2007 tax returns (although there is not much income; but my father in law is a co-sponsor... his tax returns have already been submitted)
3. A letter from the bank (or a bank statement) showing that she has an account in the US with some money
4. A letter from her parents stating that we will be living with them for the time being and that there is ample room for us

Is this sufficient evidence to support our claim that she is setting up domicile in the US?

Any suggestions/advice is more than welcome!

Thank you in advance!!

AN

Hi there,

That looks pretty darn good. If you want to include 1 more thing that is free to obtain, why not include a moving estimate? Just go to http://www.upack.com/ - fill in your details and they will email you one, which you can then print off - and they won't even send you any junk mail

Hi trailmix,

Thanks for the quick reply... I will have a look at upack.com and get a moving quote... as you said, it couldn't hurt and does not cost anything.

So you think we have a good shot at it... let's hope you're right!

Thanks again!

AN

[trailmix 77]

Hi,

I hope it's enough too!

Basically with ours, I did get a request for information at the National Visa Center stage - requesting more proof of reestablishing domicile. You have probably read wowswift's post above - they got their request for more information just as you did - at the consulate interview.

I have a few questions for you that I hope you won't mind answering as it might help someone else reading this thread. I noticed when reviewing your post again, you mention that you are submitting her 2007 U.S. tax return - did you not submit this with your wife's I-864 (affidavit of support) originally?

I'm assuming you direct consular filed, rather than going through NVC?

What documentation did you submit originally to prove reestablishing domicile?

[MacDude 0]

Hi,

I hope it's enough too!

Basically with ours, I did get a request for information at the National Visa Center stage - requesting more proof of reestablishing domicile. You have probably read wowswift's post above - they got their request for more information just as you did - at the consulate interview.

I have a few questions for you that I hope you won't mind answering as it might help someone else reading this thread. I noticed when reviewing your post again, you mention that you are submitting her 2007 U.S. tax return - did you not submit this with your wife's I-864 (affidavit of support) originally?

I'm assuming you direct consular filed, rather than going through NVC?

What documentation did you submit originally to prove reestablishing domicile?

No problem... glad to answer!

I did not go through the National Visa Center (NVC) but rather through the local Consulate Office in Montreal; so yes I did a direct consular file.

The problem is (frankly I am a little bit ashamed of this) that I didn't read he I-864 form from A to Z (mostly because I was doing my diligence with the other forms and things were going so smoothly, that I lowered my guard a little and simply skimmed the document over. and so, I missed the part about my wife not being eligible as a petitioner unless she either currently domiciles in the US OR is able to show enough proof that she will be domiciled there on or before the date that I intend to enter the US.

Having said that, I also had a few questions for the consulate (which I submitted as an email well before the interview date) and got no response (except for the automatic FAQ; so i know it was received). I made a decision and it turned out to be the wrong one... I understood the I-864 form was only required for my father-in-law which was the sponsor since he was the only person in the US at the time that could prove he was able to support me financially above the poverty line. So I prepared for the interview with only one I-864 form (from my father-in-law) and submitted only his tax returns.

So to answer your final question, I didn't submit any documents originally and was completely unprepared for the interview! yikes... it brings back some awful memories of that day LOL

Hope that clears it up a little more... let me know if you have any more questions or suggestions!

Thanks!

AN