The United States of America - my thoughts so far

[Captain Oates 910]

The stereotypical American ?

Of course stereotypes are usually true or they would not exist

That includes stereotypes about Yorkshire people (me)

Having said that, the real core of what Margaret Thatcher said about there being 'no such thing as society' is that each individual and each family is a world away from the next one

I went to Lagrange Georgia, just up the road from Alabama for years with work. One of my workmates there was a really nice guy but when I said I liked tamla motown he said 'Yeah I really like that N..... music too'

It was just the way it was in Georgia and there was no kick behind the word.

Similarly, the church stuff is absolutely stifling but you can get away from it

I went to the state park here and a brass plaque explained that the ginkgo petrified forest was 20 million years old. Some rabid Jesus freak had scratched it out and mutilated the plate and written 'sinful lies'

So the stereotypes exist and are true and there are areas where you can be shot and disappear in a pick up truck or be killed for having an abortion etc etc

The stereotypes are all true but my messages is that you can avoid 90% of them and live like a European if your spouse is enlightened and not in the KKK or a wild eyed religious nut etc

And far as history is concerned forget it. The week before we came to the U.S. I took my wife to the Saxon church at Linton in Yorkshire - built in 850ad

I saw a program that was in awe over a Chicago church built 150 years ago ! Jeez my last house was built in 1725

This country is not my country. It has many advantages for me and I want to stay here but I will always be a foreigner, an alien. I used to enjoy .22 rifle shooting in Ilkley at the club. All professors and phone engineers and aerial erectors. Here it's all fat bearded guys with pickups who shoot .45 autos near the rodeo field. All they want is for some Mexican illegal to trespass in their garden so they can disembowel them. It's a different world, not my world, but I have learned to adapt without changing my attitudes to pick up trucks or racism or free health care or religion.

I joined the motorbike club and instead of genial eccentrics its all rebel flags and I am American born and.... it's not what I am used to or what I like or what I want to become.

Having said all that, the reason why I say that the stereotypes need not be too big a part of your life is that the public radio shows that there are as many, if not more, enlightened, kind, nice, deep thinking people in the US than in the UK even

They are here and you can make that kind of mini world into your world.

If you force yourself to like those parts of American culture which are repulsive to you, it won't work. So be yourself and go with what you feel about and avoid the other stuff.

It's a big country and not one society and there are plenty of people and situations to chose from

They have castration of sex offenders in Louisiana and no guns for us aliens in Washington state, firing squads in Utah and Government kidnap, torture and extraordinary rendition - the woman on the news has dazzling teeth and told me yesterday that 19 criminals were being publicly hung in Tehran. She smiled and tried to look cute while she was saying it and showing the pictures - a person from Europe does not transition immediately if they are a thinking person.... It easy to think this is an insane micky mouse land of bigots and uncaring nazis and narcissists but not all Americans are like that. Plenty are.

If you just want to bake apple pies and go to church and have kids - and are not interested in news or current affairs or politics, you can do very well in the US so long as your spouse has classy health insurance

I know I can never change anything here, and if I become a citizen it will be as one of a minority of 'liberal'persons and many of my fellow Americans will seriously dislike my views - nevertheless I can live in my minority section of American society as so many do.

Finally, the States are like different worlds - I know Georgia and I have lived in Wisconsin and Florida and Washington State. Each one with a hugely different flavour. I couldn't buy a gin and tonic on the public holiday because only the state liquor shop can sell it in case the hinjuns get their hands on firewater. I can't buy a single shot .22 target rifle, my hobby for decades - I am an alien. In Florida I can be legally shot if I knock on a door for water and the resident fears that I might do them harm. etc etc

Even which side of the state matters - in Washington state in the west is Microsoft and Boeing and gays and illegals - here on the East its Republicans and guns and rodeos and church

I am still here ! Been to the UK one week since last November ! I have a super house and a brand new motorbike (Suzuki 1250 bandit actually) 3.5 litre luxury car - I bought the lot for the few pesos that the US dollar has become. The sun shines and my wife has a good job with good health cover for me. I have great credit cards and bank accounts and shares and mutual funds. I passed my car test and motorbike test and I have done all of this after my 60th birthday. I am am a foreigner in a cruel, harsh, vulgar, loud, unfair , 'every man for himself' , neo-con foreign land, but I am doing ok !

I have even found a beer I like

They don't like 'partners' here but 'pardners' are ok - get it pardner ? The flags have gold embroidery and golden eagles on the top. Massed ranks of huge flags almost identical to the nazis rallies apart from the flag itself - Rudolph Hess would have approved. I see Nuremberg and the 'Triumph of the wills' every day but I don't even notice it now...

So my message is - believe the stereotypes - they exist, I have seen them, I have spoken with them. The TV preachers say if you don't give them money then someone in your family will get cancer. The TV stations allow them to say that.

Consumer protection is non existent but most traders play the game. Trial by TV happens every day to arrested persons and people who are mere suspects are named as 'scum' on the telly even before they are charged. Don't believe that the US consists only of these stereotypes - there are scientists and atheists and socialists and quiet gentle thinking feeling people who abhor torture and racism and just all sorts of wonderful people. Be prepared for both.

I am appalled by much of US society and reassured and impressed by the rest of it , and quietly pleased that I have managed to cope so far

I am sure a lot of people will want to shout me down for a lot of what I have said here buts it's an honest summary of how I perceive this country I live in, what I have found, what I have observed.... I watch and keenly observe every day.

I am not sure if I want to be a citizen one day. How can a country evolve it's culture without minority ideas coming in from outside ? If I feel so strongly about the horrible things here, and if I think the kind and thoughtful minority should be supported, then surely it's my duty to become a citizen and to speak out for enlightenment. That would be the only basis on which I would become a citizen but I am still not sure as many of my new countrymen will hate my views for sure and isolating yourself and putting yourself up for social crucifixion takes Jesus type strength

[Jeraly 4]

Thanks for this saywhat - I think it is an insightful and honest account of your experiences and even at this early stage of my journey, can relate to many of the things you mention

I totally agree with the desire to be open-minded and thankfully where I am living appears to fit in with my ideals in that sense - obviously not entirely and I will learn more about it as I am here longer But it is nice to know that there are other people out there who have similar open-minded views as me Even if they are from Yorkshire

(Of course, I am so naive as to not have been aware of this so-called "north-south divide" in the UK. I also find it funny when Americans think Brits are "proper" and staid - I think we are massively open-minded and that even surprised Jeremy when he first came to the UK!!)

[Gemmie 142]

That was a really interesting read.

Me and my fiancee have talked a lot about these stereotypes and often ended up disagreeing, as he claims it's based on misconceptions or generalisation. Of course that is true... but it doesn't change the fact that they do exist.

Luckily, I will be moving to New England where it's closer to my native country than any other area of the US. However, even then I've encountered things that I don't think I'll readily accept with no adjustment; hundreds of kids running around in "Boston Red Sox" T-shirts, men with baseball caps that like to go hunting for fun, Catholics that have such "severe" religious beliefs, commercialisation (is that a word?), American flags waving at me from every house and store... it all makes me feel like an outsider, which is what I am.

There are also a lot of things that I love about New England though, and people seem very nice... which is good enough for me.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Gemmie

[The Red Baron 0]

Insightful

[ginger1981 0]

I guess like you said you have to make your nitch. I lived in Nebraska until I was 24, and I had developed a circle of friends who were free thinking and relatively liberal. Again, in Nebraska you don't have to be too far to the left to be labeled a socialist (though anyone who labeled you that generally had no idea as to what the principles of socialism really are).

Yes, stereotypes can be true to an extent, but you can't apply that to every person you've met. I have had it assumed that I enjoy rodeos, country music and that I'm a republican...which is quite far from the truth (I've never been to a rodeo, only country music I like is Johnny Cash and I'm liberal). Some people will surprise you...but I find them to be the most interesting people.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

To the first poster, I will say (in my opinion) you've lived mostly in backwater states (bracing for flaming) even Washington unless you were in the seattle metro area. I'd say 3/4 of what was mentioned wouldn't apply to the northeast, most of the Midwest (if you keep to the urban areas) and the west coast.

Having lived in Cardiff, I've never met a rougher group of people in my entire life then those from the valleys. Now i've met nice normal people too but wow did I feel like a foreigner there.

Edited August 1, 2008 by lancer1655

[Sherri and Matt 1]

I think your post is very insightful saywhat.

It does sound like most of your experiences are from more rural areas. The only way to find diversity and culture is in big cities here, rural areas are very much as you describe. I live in a very rural area too and it can be stifling. I try to expose my kids to different types of people and ideas as much as I can, but it is hard to do when your kids go to schools where there are only white people from this town.

I am very liberal in my views and my vocalization of these views has raised more than a few eyebrows. There are people who won't let their daughters be friends with mine, because I teach them about birth control, evolution, and above all I try to teach them understanding, tolerance and to be non-judgemental. One of the pediatricians I work for is a homosexual, and there are people who won't bring their children to him, as if his sexual preference has anything at all to do with his skills as a physician. Racism is rampant although people will swear to you they are not racist, and they are not lying. They don't think they are, they think their racist ideas are just right and normal. I lived in a more urban place before I lived where I do now, it's been 5 years and I still have moments when I just stand there and blink in shock at what I just heard come out of someone's mouth. Religion very much controls things here, and I think it is an outrage.

Country music makes my ears bleed, I hate pickup trucks, think hunting for sport is ridiculous, have no guns in my house, would be perfectly happy for my daughter to be gay, marry a black man, or have an abortion, I think organized religion is the bane of modern society and I hate George Bush, he's a tool.

Hang in there, there are people here that actually live in this century, not in the one this country was founded in a short 2 hundred years ago. The funniest thing in my situation, is that I am far more liberal than my SO. What are the odds?

[andrea922 0]

Honestly? I don't find your post insightful, I find it ridiculous.

I am from Georgia, I grew up there, and I don't know anyone that uses the word you referred to in conversation. It most certainly isn't how 'it just is' there.

Before you spout off your observations to people who may take them to be truth please remember that you clearly went into this move to the US with expectations of how it would be. It is a shame that you have seeked out and found examples to back up your stereotyping.

After living in the UK for 3 years I could carry on and on about chavs and council housing, blah blah, but you know what? My thoughts wouldn't be fact. They would be an opinion and would benefit no one by me saying them.

[Mags 112]

Honestly? I don't find your post insightful, I find it ridiculous.

I am from Georgia, I grew up there, and I don't know anyone that uses the word you referred to in conversation. It most certainly isn't how 'it just is' there.

Before you spout off your observations to people who may take them to be truth please remember that you clearly went into this move to the US with expectations of how it would be. It is a shame that you have seeked out and found examples to back up your stereotyping.

After living in the UK for 3 years I could carry on and on about chavs and council housing, blah blah, but you know what? My thoughts wouldn't be fact. They would be an opinion and would benefit no one by me saying them.

And this is saywhat's opinion, he is perfectly entitled to it. He isn't out to offend.

[weedebz 0]

thanks Saywhat. I loved reading your post. I'm from Scotland, now living in Grand Island, NE. All I keep getting is..."please say something in your accent" it was funny at first, now I'm starting to feel like an exhibit at a freak show.

I totally understand the history aspect. There is sthur museum here which the town is very proud of and it is nice and pretty, we got married in the church there. The thing that gets me is that everyone goes on about how old it is. I'm used to going to see ancient Scottish castles, viking sites, bronze age round house sites and the like.

[Jeraly 4]

DEBZ!!!!!!!!!!!! How are you hun? I miss you!!!

There is a Celtic shop on main street in Palm Springs here - I keep wanting to show you!! Here:

http://www.celticcraftcentre.com/

It looks like a work in progress

As for accent - I don't get that too much but I think I have been back so many times that the people Jeremy works with have already been through that stage with me two years ago and in PS no-one seems too bothered - I mean they like my accent and things but it isn't like some major event It's quite nice actually

(You wait - now I have said that, I will get it all the time! )

[Robyn-n-Kris 72]

Well as I've always said.. people are entitled to their opinions. I will say that alot of what I read kind of shocked me. I've lived my whole life in the US... its not perfect and god knows I'm looking forward to the time when Kris and I can move back to the UK but some of what you said I can honestly say I've never seen. I grew up in the country. Rarely did i see guns or people who acted as you've encountered. I will admit that here what we consider 'old' is still very new in relation to overseas. Its a topic Kris and I go over often. Still, its part of history regardless of how long ago something was created or built.

But past that no matter where a person resides or where they choose to live their lives things will never be perfect and it is one person's choice on whether they will look to find the bad or instead live with the things that make it good. I've always chosen the latter of the two. No place will be perfect or ideal... its how one chooses to make that life that determines if it is liveable. But anyway... i'm babbling now.. to the original poster.. I hope you find more good in your surroundings and learn to enjoy that and choose not to dwell on the things you dislike.

[ginger1981 0]

I think your post is very insightful saywhat.

It does sound like most of your experiences are from more rural areas. The only way to find diversity and culture is in big cities here, rural areas are very much as you describe. I live in a very rural area too and it can be stifling. I try to expose my kids to different types of people and ideas as much as I can, but it is hard to do when your kids go to schools where there are only white people from this town.

Rural areas are more alike than not no matter where you go. Aside from a few cultural preferences the rural Scottish Borders are no different from the rural area I grew up...farmers hanging out at bars, everyone knows everyone else's business, the love of all things fried or from a potato. Maybe the only difference was the huge grain elevators that dot the small towns of the plains didn't up in the Northeast, but otherwise I found Crete NE to be remarkably similar to Berwick upon Tweed UK.

thanks Saywhat. I loved reading your post. I'm from Scotland, now living in Grand Island, NE. All I keep getting is..."please say something in your accent" it was funny at first, now I'm starting to feel like an exhibit at a freak show.

I totally understand the history aspect. There is sthur museum here which the town is very proud of and it is nice and pretty, we got married in the church there. The thing that gets me is that everyone goes on about how old it is. I'm used to going to see ancient Scottish castles, viking sites, bronze age round house sites and the like.

Just whatever you do...do not go to Carhenge. It will make you weep for all that is good and natural in the world. But do visit Harold Warp's Pioneer Village...it is the biggest collection of random ####### you will ever come across.

But hey, the Stuhr has the house Henry Fonda was born. My parents took my dear grandmother on a special trip there just to see that wee house!

I will admit that here what we consider 'old' is still very new in relation to overseas. Its a topic Kris and I go over often. Still, its part of history regardless of how long ago something was created or built.

It depends on how you define our history. Are you defining it only in Eurocentric terms? If so yes we have a relatively young country. But the Natives have been here for many thousand years...we may not have as many great structures (though some like the cliff dwellings in Colorado, adobes in Taos and the mounds along the Mississippi come to mind) as Europe, but we definitly have some amazing history that is worth looking into.

[Robyn-n-Kris 72]

I think your post is very insightful saywhat.

It does sound like most of your experiences are from more rural areas. The only way to find diversity and culture is in big cities here, rural areas are very much as you describe. I live in a very rural area too and it can be stifling. I try to expose my kids to different types of people and ideas as much as I can, but it is hard to do when your kids go to schools where there are only white people from this town.

Rural areas are more alike than not no matter where you go. Aside from a few cultural preferences the rural Scottish Borders are no different from the rural area I grew up...farmers hanging out at bars, everyone knows everyone else's business, the love of all things fried or from a potato. Maybe the only difference was the huge grain elevators that dot the small towns of the plains didn't up in the Northeast, but otherwise I found Crete NE to be remarkably similar to Berwick upon Tweed UK.

thanks Saywhat. I loved reading your post. I'm from Scotland, now living in Grand Island, NE. All I keep getting is..."please say something in your accent" it was funny at first, now I'm starting to feel like an exhibit at a freak show.

I totally understand the history aspect. There is sthur museum here which the town is very proud of and it is nice and pretty, we got married in the church there. The thing that gets me is that everyone goes on about how old it is. I'm used to going to see ancient Scottish castles, viking sites, bronze age round house sites and the like.

Just whatever you do...do not go to Carhenge. It will make you weep for all that is good and natural in the world. But do visit Harold Warp's Pioneer Village...it is the biggest collection of random ####### you will ever come across.

But hey, the Stuhr has the house Henry Fonda was born. My parents took my dear grandmother on a special trip there just to see that wee house!

I will admit that here what we consider 'old' is still very new in relation to overseas. Its a topic Kris and I go over often. Still, its part of history regardless of how long ago something was created or built.

It depends on how you define our history. Are you defining it only in Eurocentric terms? If so yes we have a relatively young country. But the Natives have been here for many thousand years...we may not have as many great structures (though some like the cliff dwellings in Colorado, adobes in Taos and the mounds along the Mississippi come to mind) as Europe, but we definitly have some amazing history that is worth looking into.

Ginger.. I'm more or less referring to age and what had been pointed out by the original poster as something here being say 100 years old compared to overseas. I'm from the US... born here and lived here all my life. The country as it stands is still young.. meaning as it pertains to those of us whose ancestors came over here. As a country itself it is still old and the natural places such as you find in Colorado etc are older. I was only meaning to say that History means something different to everyone and is all a matter of perception.

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

[ginger1981 0]

I think your post is very insightful saywhat.

It does sound like most of your experiences are from more rural areas. The only way to find diversity and culture is in big cities here, rural areas are very much as you describe. I live in a very rural area too and it can be stifling. I try to expose my kids to different types of people and ideas as much as I can, but it is hard to do when your kids go to schools where there are only white people from this town.

Rural areas are more alike than not no matter where you go. Aside from a few cultural preferences the rural Scottish Borders are no different from the rural area I grew up...farmers hanging out at bars, everyone knows everyone else's business, the love of all things fried or from a potato. Maybe the only difference was the huge grain elevators that dot the small towns of the plains didn't up in the Northeast, but otherwise I found Crete NE to be remarkably similar to Berwick upon Tweed UK.

thanks Saywhat. I loved reading your post. I'm from Scotland, now living in Grand Island, NE. All I keep getting is..."please say something in your accent" it was funny at first, now I'm starting to feel like an exhibit at a freak show.

I totally understand the history aspect. There is sthur museum here which the town is very proud of and it is nice and pretty, we got married in the church there. The thing that gets me is that everyone goes on about how old it is. I'm used to going to see ancient Scottish castles, viking sites, bronze age round house sites and the like.

Just whatever you do...do not go to Carhenge. It will make you weep for all that is good and natural in the world. But do visit Harold Warp's Pioneer Village...it is the biggest collection of random ####### you will ever come across.

But hey, the Stuhr has the house Henry Fonda was born. My parents took my dear grandmother on a special trip there just to see that wee house!

I will admit that here what we consider 'old' is still very new in relation to overseas. Its a topic Kris and I go over often. Still, its part of history regardless of how long ago something was created or built.

It depends on how you define our history. Are you defining it only in Eurocentric terms? If so yes we have a relatively young country. But the Natives have been here for many thousand years...we may not have as many great structures (though some like the cliff dwellings in Colorado, adobes in Taos and the mounds along the Mississippi come to mind) as Europe, but we definitly have some amazing history that is worth looking into.

Ginger.. I'm more or less referring to age and what had been pointed out by the original poster as something here being say 100 years old compared to overseas. I'm from the US... born here and lived here all my life. The country as it stands is still young.. meaning as it pertains to those of us whose ancestors came over here. As a country itself it is still old and the natural places such as you find in Colorado etc are older. I was only meaning to say that History means something different to everyone and is all a matter of perception.

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

Actually I should have been more clear...I wasn't lecturing you and I apologize if it came out that way I have had this convo with Brits and I like to point out that our history is just as old...it is only that our recorded history started more recently.

But yes you are right the perceptions are different. Of course to Europeans they are coming from the Eurocentric point of view. Even many Americans are that way.

I was a history major...historic perceptions have always been a fascination of mine. It is really amazing how history can be manipulated. One of my favorite quotes was by Churchill, who said "History will be kind to me since I will be the one who wrote it." (that quote is likely not verbatim but that is the jist of the comment)