Proving domicile when not living in the U.S.

[brocku00 1]

Hey Trailmix, thanks for all the help. I just thought about something though, my husband has moved (in the past week) so he has a new address. So, when I send in the package next week, should I have my husband say that he is officially changing his address in his letter? Or is there another process I have to do in order to changes his address? Thanks.

[trailmix 77]

Hey Trailmix, thanks for all the help. I just thought about something though, my husband has moved (in the past week) so he has a new address. So, when I send in the package next week, should I have my husband say that he is officially changing his address in his letter? Or is there another process I have to do in order to changes his address? Thanks.

Since your file is now with Montreal exclusively, you should have no problem if you just have him send his change of address in with the package.

[trailmix 77]

Update to this thread, successful interview for Limbosage, the link below is his post detailing what he provided at the interview to prove reestablishing domicile. His wife (U.S. citizen) has been living in Canada since 2006.

That thread is here

jonesg111 Denied June 18th and again November 24th/2009, those threads are here and here (information from the 4th recent denial can be found in the second thread here, postings by nana1111).

Lenie7 denied in November 2009 - that thread is here

Brocku00 Denied in August 2009 - thread here

Simstar successfully proved reestablishing domicile at her interview in October - thread here

A VJ member who successfully proved reestablishing domicile at their interview - kemijo

kemijo's interview review

Avery had her interview October 13th and was sent away to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile. That thread can be found here.

Other Canadian VJ members that have been asked to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile:

Shiri

Wowswift

kristinelder

jonesg111

ink

Also a couple of other threads in the Canada forum regarding domicile:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208699

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=212678

Edited December 3, 2009 by trailmix

[trailmix 77]

Udate: Two more denials at Montreal for proof of domicile, one approval (after initial denial).

Avery was approved, after her Husband moved back to the U.S. - thread here.

shaloma john Thread is here

neela828 Thread is here

Successful interview for Limbosage, the link below is his post detailing what he provided at the interview to prove reestablishing domicile. His wife (U.S. citizen) has been living in Canada since 2006.

That thread is here

jonesg111 Denied June 18th and again November 24th/2009, those threads are here and here (information from the 4th recent denial can be found in the second thread here, postings by nana1111).

Lenie7 denied in November 2009 - that thread is here

Brocku00 Denied in August 2009 - thread here

Simstar successfully proved reestablishing domicile at her interview in October - thread here

A VJ member who successfully proved reestablishing domicile at their interview - kemijo

kemijo's interview review

Avery had her interview October 13th and was sent away to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile. That thread can be found here.

Other Canadian VJ members that have been asked to produce more evidence of reestablishing domicile:

Shiri

Wowswift

kristinelder

jonesg111

ink

Also a couple of other threads in the Canada forum regarding domicile:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208699

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=212678

Edited December 12, 2009 by trailmix

[mike777 0]

Hi, I've been reading here that proving domicile is a problem. I have a question about my wife and I's scenario. We have the advantage of being a border town couple, we both have NEXUS but I'm "sleeping/resting/living, whatever" at an address in Canada on a visitor record which is good till the end of summer. (as I was organized well, the POE officer granted me a year). Let me stress, but my drivers license, insurance, banking, credit union loan, JOB, tax records, everything I do basically...is in the states.. My permanent address, on file with the govt' is in the states as well (my parents) I go back to visit friends, family, do banking, pick up my mail, haircuts, basically everything in the states, and I go back at least 2 times a week. Now my perm address (registered with my nexus, and whats on ALL my other records) is in the US...I'm curious if anyone thinks my wife could have a problem at her interview if they ask where I live or something related to that?

Now I want to stress that I did mention this to a number of operators (called quite a few times :-)) when filling out our DS230 and 864. One of them said that it didn't matter and that I should just use my US address. I also casually mentioned to others about this as well, and they didn't say anything about it. But I'm asking here, as I don't think in the government, that one hand knows what the other is doing

So the big things here that I feel myself, that it's not an issue is that fact that I'm a USC, working for a US company and that I'm only in CA on a "visitor record." Even if I wasn't working, the fact that I'm here in a visitor record only should make the difference in my opinion.

There is the fact though, that the visitor record has been granted in this past summer and our case was complete last week and realistically, her interview won't be till May or June-ish...that I've had this record for over 6 months, almost a year...

My wife and I want to move into a house in the states once her visa is approved but I'm not going to start seriously talking with real estate agents until probably April-ish... and I'm not going to move out and secure a mortgage on a house when I'm paying rent in Canada with my wife here...But now thinking about it, a mortgage on a house could be another piece of evidence. But after all this has been said, I'd think all I'd "need" to being as domicile proof is job letter. But again, I gave them voting record, and I have alllll that other stuff with my US address on it. But I'm going to bring copies of EVERYTHING even still.

So again, does anyone think this is a problem? Thanks.

[Lenie7 0]

Hi Mike,

Considering the fact that you have the U.S. address, filed with that address AND have a U.S. job, I don't think you'll have much of a problem. Many of the denials have been with couples where both of them live in Canada and want to move over to the states. Even in those cases, usually it is approved if someone has a job offer (plus other evidence) or a job in the states because it shows intent to live there. At the interview, I would suggest that you don't ever say that you "live" in Canada at all (which you probably wouldn't, anyway), but rather that you just visit your wife there. With all the evidence you have, I can't imagine you would be denied.

Hi, I've been reading here that proving domicile is a problem. I have a question about my wife and I's scenario. We have the advantage of being a border town couple, we both have NEXUS but I'm "sleeping/resting/living, whatever" at an address in Canada on a visitor record which is good till the end of summer. (as I was organized well, the POE officer granted me a year). Let me stress, but my drivers license, insurance, banking, credit union loan, JOB, tax records, everything I do basically...is in the states.. My permanent address, on file with the govt' is in the states as well (my parents) I go back to visit friends, family, do banking, pick up my mail, haircuts, basically everything in the states, and I go back at least 2 times a week. Now my perm address (registered with my nexus, and whats on ALL my other records) is in the US...I'm curious if anyone thinks my wife could have a problem at her interview if they ask where I live or something related to that?

Now I want to stress that I did mention this to a number of operators (called quite a few times :-)) when filling out our DS230 and 864. One of them said that it didn't matter and that I should just use my US address. I also casually mentioned to others about this as well, and they didn't say anything about it. But I'm asking here, as I don't think in the government, that one hand knows what the other is doing

So the big things here that I feel myself, that it's not an issue is that fact that I'm a USC, working for a US company and that I'm only in CA on a "visitor record." Even if I wasn't working, the fact that I'm here in a visitor record only should make the difference in my opinion.

There is the fact though, that the visitor record has been granted in this past summer and our case was complete last week and realistically, her interview won't be till May or June-ish...that I've had this record for over 6 months, almost a year...

My wife and I want to move into a house in the states once her visa is approved but I'm not going to start seriously talking with real estate agents until probably April-ish... and I'm not going to move out and secure a mortgage on a house when I'm paying rent in Canada with my wife here...But now thinking about it, a mortgage on a house could be another piece of evidence. But after all this has been said, I'd think all I'd "need" to being as domicile proof is job letter. But again, I gave them voting record, and I have alllll that other stuff with my US address on it. But I'm going to bring copies of EVERYTHING even still.

So again, does anyone think this is a problem? Thanks.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Lenie7

[trailmix 77]

I think you will be fine, for all intents and purposes you are living in the U.S.

Of course you should bring all of those pieces of evidence with you to the interview, however it shouldn't be a problem.

Oh and you would think that visitor status for Canada would show intent to just be a visitor and not a 'resident' - but that's not the case, someone else here had one and they were denied (believe they had been here a couple of years though if I remember correctly). But - different scenario, they never claimed to be resident in the U.S. - because they really weren't.

Edited December 13, 2009 by trailmix

[jonesg111 0]

I think you will be fine, for all intents and purposes you are living in the U.S.

Of course you should bring all of those pieces of evidence with you to the interview, however it shouldn't be a problem.

Oh and you would think that visitor status for Canada would show intent to just be a visitor and not a 'resident' - but that's not the case, someone else here had one and they were denied (believe they had been here a couple of years though if I remember correctly). But - different scenario, they never claimed to be resident in the U.S. - because they really weren't.

My wife is here in Canada on a visitor's visa. We tried to use that to show that she was just here temporarily along with our other proof of reestablishing domicile such as a job offer in the US and a lease agreement. Still no luck with that, they think that if you live here at all then you're here for good.......

[mike777 0]

My wife is here in Canada on a visitor's visa. We tried to use that to show that she was just here temporarily along with our other proof of reestablishing domicile such as a job offer in the US and a lease agreement. Still no luck with that, they think that if you live here at all then you're here for good.......

...and what happened after that?

Well, considering that I'm currently working for a US company...hopefully different situation. Well Maybe I need to start looking for my own house then sooner and secure a mortgage sooner rather than waiting for her Visa to get approved...that should clinch it..."IF" they even ask the living question.

If they ask my wife, where does your husband live, I'm not going to have her lie, that's my worry. But again, from the conversation with NVC operators and my pro active disclosure to them and the records on my Nexus, in good conscience I should be able to look my head up and straight in someones eyes and say, "my (permanent) address is in the US."

But again, there's the ambiguity, if they say, "live", then that's where things get grey. I even worry about it when I'm driving around in the US, say I get pulled over by a cop for a traffic violation, and he says, is this your current address...I could say, yes and hope his computer doesn't tap into the Canadian database and show I have a visitors record. Because, that is the truth, that, yes, the US address is my current address, but I know in the back of my head that no, I'm "somewhat living in Canada"... He might not even know what to do at that point...I've been pulled over once and asked where am I coming from. That could be a problem...then I have to open up about my story.

Hmm or I could just be hopeful and hope my wife gets the visa approved and a month before the interview I just hand in and terminate my visitor record. Interview time comes, they say to my wife, "do you live in with your husband - she can look at them in the eye and say, "no." With no guilt on her mind.

It's tough, in the end, its one of those things, is an omission a lie. For example, you can choose to tell your friends and family say, your pregnant or got married but are you obligated to tell the entire world? Certainly not. Or say you have friends over for a party, do you have to invite everyone? No, you may want a small group only. Do you have the right to pick and choose what you tell people? Yes, but if the intent is manipulative, then your doing an immoral thing. If someone outright asks a specific question then you must answer with the truth. But in my wife and I's case, I don't think we'd be doing anything immoral as I do live in the US - I'm just visiting Canada for a pre-determined length of time. I really don't think it'll be a problem, but I'm a worrier and can't help myself so I'm trying to do my research and cover my ground before her interview.

I also think of for instance when traveling back and forth and declaring goods. Basically both sides just need to hear about brand new items coming in; say I buy a CD in country X and listen to it in my car immediately after opening it. Then I'm coming right back into country Y - well, hey, that CD is now used, therefore shouldn't have to be declared. Knowing you "just" bought it, BUT used it already and are coming back into another country with it - would the moral thing to be to declare it? Some may think that, I don't though, as "technicalities" now say it's used. So therefore, doesn't have to be declared. * Sorry this was off tangent - just thinking of stuff using this hypothetical example.

You know what's stupid too while I'm on this? OK my wife has passed two levels of checks, the first one being the USC I-130 petition, then the 2nd is my packet of forms, being the 864 and the DS-230. Honestly, isn't that enough? How can a person sitting behind a glass say that someone is denied after their own government approved everything up to that point. Now if they feel that this person married a USC just to get in the country, then divorce or leave him, then yes, deny them. But after all these checks and lengthy processes that we all have went through, getting denied because of anything else is rediculous. Those denials should have happened during the early petition phases.

[trailmix 77]

Jonesg has been denied twice now

In your first post you mention that you go to the U.S. at least once every two weeks, does that mean you are telecommuting for work, so in fact working while you are in Canada? (I only ask this from a - where do you spend your time point of view)

Here is the official word:

b. However, in a situation in which the petitioner has maintained both a U.S. residence and a residence abroad, you must determine which is the principal abode. Some petitioners have remained abroad for extended periods but still maintain a principal residence in the United States (i.e., students, contract workers, and non-governmental organization (NGO)volunteers). To establish that one is also maintaining a domicile in the United States, the petitioner must satisfy you that he or she:

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 9 - Visas

9 FAM 40.41 Notes Page 26 of 35

(1) Departed the United States for a limited, and not indefinite, period of time;

(2) Intended to maintain a U.S. domicile at the time of departure; and,

(3) Can present convincing evidence of continued ties to the United States.

Edited December 14, 2009 by trailmix

[mike777 0]

Jonesg has been denied twice now

In your first post you mention that you go to the U.S. at least once every two weeks, does that mean you are telecommuting for work, so in fact working while you are in Canada? (I only ask this from a - where do you spend your time point of view)

Here is the official word:

b. However, in a situation in which the petitioner has maintained both a U.S. residence and a residence abroad, you must determine which is the principal abode. Some petitioners have remained abroad for extended periods but still maintain a principal residence in the United States (i.e., students, contract workers, and non-governmental organization (NGO)volunteers). To establish that one is also maintaining a domicile in the United States, the petitioner must satisfy you that he or she:

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 9 - Visas

9 FAM 40.41 Notes Page 26 of 35

(1) Departed the United States for a limited, and not indefinite, period of time;

(2) Intended to maintain a U.S. domicile at the time of departure; and,

(3) Can present convincing evidence of continued ties to the United States.

I forgot to mention that even though I"m a USC working for a US company, I do telecommute. So I sleep in Canada with my wife, I wake up and work on my computer here. She comes home, dinner, etc. ..repeat.

I do come home at least twice a week for personal reasons and sometimes for meetings. Is this going to be a problem?

[trailmix 77]

Now that I know that you are truly 'living' in Canada, I don't really think you fall under the 'temporary' umbrella. I should also mention that Jonesg's wife has lived in Canada for a year and a half on a visitor's visa and they stated at their interview that she was only here temporarily.

Here is the thing to be very very careful with. You need to decide, before she goes for her interview, exactly what you are trying to prove - no room for waffling with this at all. I kind of thought, even though you said you were going back to the U.S. every few weeks, that you physically worked there, at least some of the time. That is not the case obviously.

It's kind of a grey area, do you go with attempting to prove you are only in Canada temporarily or do you go with attempting to prove reestablishing domicile.

For U.S. immigration purposes there are 2 types of domicile and then there is intent to reestablish domicile.

1. Actual domicile - you actually live in the U.S.

2. Temporary absence. While you live in another country, you are only there temporarily - think 'visiting' - things like applying for PR status in that country would make it almost impossible for you to prove this.

3. Reestablishing domicile. This is where you must prove that you 'intend to reestablish domicile in the U.S. no later than the intending immigrant'. So basically they are saying that, we know you don't live there - however prove to us that you are planning to move back before or with the immigrant.

You state you use you parent's address. Where do they live? You mention you are in a border town, are they in that border town? Honestly, if it were me, I would stop living in Canada if I were you, if you want less of a hassle when she interviews. If in fact your parents are living in that border town, that is where you need to be right now.

Honestly, your evidence right now points to you living in Canada and visiting the U.S. - not the other way around - but that's just my opinion.

Therefore, short of physically moving back to the States right now, your only other alternative is to prove reestablishing domicile. Regardless of which one you decide, as I mentioned - go with just one.

[mike777 0]

Now that I know that you are truly 'living' in Canada, I don't really think you fall under the 'temporary' umbrella. I should also mention that Jonesg's wife has lived in Canada for a year and a half on a visitor's visa and they stated at their interview that she was only here temporarily.

Here is the thing to be very very careful with. You need to decide, before she goes for her interview, exactly what you are trying to prove - no room for waffling with this at all. I kind of thought, even though you said you were going back to the U.S. every few weeks, that you physically worked there, at least some of the time. That is not the case obviously.

It's kind of a grey area, do you go with attempting to prove you are only in Canada temporarily or do you go with attempting to prove reestablishing domicile.

For U.S. immigration purposes there are 2 types of domicile and then there is intent to reestablish domicile.

1. Actual domicile - you actually live in the U.S.

2. Temporary absence. While you live in another country, you are only there temporarily - think 'visiting' - things like applying for PR status in that country would make it almost impossible for you to prove this.

3. Reestablishing domicile. This is where you must prove that you 'intend to reestablish domicile in the U.S. no later than the intending immigrant'. So basically they are saying that, we know you don't live there - however prove to us that you are planning to move back before or with the immigrant.

You state you use you parent's address. Where do they live? You mention you are in a border town, are they in that border town? Honestly, if it were me, I would stop living in Canada if I were you, if you want less of a hassle when she interviews. If in fact your parents are living in that border town, that is where you need to be right now.

Honestly, your evidence right now points to you living in Canada and visiting the U.S. - not the other way around - but that's just my opinion.

Therefore, short of physically moving back to the States right now, your only other alternative is to prove reestablishing domicile. Regardless of which one you decide, as I mentioned - go with just one.

Hm, No offense to you, I'd rather not reveal where I'm living but I'll just say that between my US address and where I am physically in Canada, that it's only 40 minutes away. I'm 15 minutes from the border. What if I just telecommute back at my US address (parents address) everyday from business hours then come back to Canada every night?

If not, in all seriousness, what about a couple months before my wifes "anticipated" interview, I buy a house back in the states?

Our original plan was as soon as we found out when our interview date was, we'd move quickly to sell her car as we want only one car right now, and we buy a house. Then I can throw my mortgage papers at them if they raise a problem? And if that doesn't work. I'll just have a mortgage on the house in the states and just come to be with her here in Canada every night? I think that would work, but it would result in me paying rent on this current place in Canada, and paying a monthly mortgage for at least a couple months.

[trailmix 77]

No offense taken, I didn't mean that literally as in, tell me where your parents live - I just meant - hey if that is where your parents live (border town you have mentioned) then, short of renting a place or buying a house, that should now be your principal place of abode.

Again, it all goes back to what you decide to prove. One person here - and I can't remember who it was right now, off the top of my head, recently tried to prove that they were only living in Canada temporarily - that their domicile is in the U.S. - that person actually spent around 50% of their time here and 50% in the U.S. - they owned a house there, had a driver's license, etc etc, all the things you would expect from a person living there - but they were denied.

Now, if I am also remembering correctly, that person may have had Canadian permanent residency - so that might have been a factor (I can't remember).

The only advice I can give is that whatever you decide to go with, proving temporary absence from the U.S. or reestablishing domicile - choose just one, so there is no confusion.

Edited December 14, 2009 by trailmix

[mike777 0]

Oh ya, I don't have a PR card, don't want one..if I thought a interviewer was not going to ask my wife if she lives with me now then I wouldn't worry, but they could...

Do you know or does anyone know CR1 Canadian immigration questions? I seen the guides on this site but those are K's. I actually know a couple that did what my wife and I are doing and they had no problem, but the Canadian wife told us she was about to burst (pregnant) at the time of the interview and isn't sure if that had anything to do with her approval and quickness of it. But her American husband commuted to his job (US company) everyday BUT he already owned his own house... so I'm thinking that the big kicker is going to be owning a home or not.

What I'm thinking now is, shortly before interview, get rid of visitor record, and I may have to buy a house earlier than I wanted by a month or two...and possibly spend that short time just commuting back and forth to see my wife.

Hm who knows, it's tough, everyone, even on the govt level will tell you different things. But you seem to have been around and have some authority to the information you are giving. I'd even go into the Nexus office and talk to both the Canadians and US officers and ask their opinions, but I honestly don't think they are going to help.