Questions about having met within two years

[rachbel 2]

Rex,

i want to reiterate again... MAKE SURE you DO NOT let the embassy know you had a formal wedding ceremony, it doesn't matter if it is non-legal or not. I would NOT recommend it but if you are going to then don't let them know

hi evrybody,

i've photos of our engagement, photos with my family and look like a marriage ceremony anyway, is it risky to show that ? how can they know if it's a marriage or engagement ceremony ? thanks for your advices.

Rachbel,

I mentioned two times up there already that it's NOT a good idea to show these photos. The embassy MAY consider it a marriage ceremony and won't care ig it's legal or not. I don't understand why people take this risk of having these things and then after all that showing the photos. There was a thread earlier about a bunch of people who got denied because they showed these photos at the consulate or embassy and got denied because the embassy said they were alread married and neede to apply for a K3/

Hi,

i realized that the photos i sent with the original package as proof of having met in persons includ photos of our engagements, so i wonder what can happen if i have interview next days , does the petitioner needs to make like a sworn and sign and declare that we are not married yet,? is this a possible suggestion ? hope to hear ur advices. thanks much.

[payxibka 10,045]

Hi,

i realized that the photos i sent with the original package as proof of having met in persons includ photos of our engagements, so i wonder what can happen if i have interview next days , does the petitioner needs to make like a sworn and sign and declare that we are not married yet,? is this a possible suggestion ? hope to hear ur advices. thanks much.

You can but it may not make any difference... there is a VJ member who got a sworn statement from a county government official, that was not believed..

Some consulates want an updated "letter of intent" to marry so you can check with your consulate's required documents to determine if it is needed.

[scandal 951]

Rex,

i want to reiterate again... MAKE SURE you DO NOT let the embassy know you had a formal wedding ceremony, it doesn't matter if it is non-legal or not. I would NOT recommend it but if you are going to then don't let them know

hi evrybody,

i've photos of our engagement, photos with my family and look like a marriage ceremony anyway, is it risky to show that ? how can they know if it's a marriage or engagement ceremony ? thanks for your advices.

Rachbel,

I mentioned two times up there already that it's NOT a good idea to show these photos. The embassy MAY consider it a marriage ceremony and won't care ig it's legal or not. I don't understand why people take this risk of having these things and then after all that showing the photos. There was a thread earlier about a bunch of people who got denied because they showed these photos at the consulate or embassy and got denied because the embassy said they were alread married and neede to apply for a K3/

I am a brand-new member on this site, just joined today, haven't even begun a K1 filing yet. However I am very interested in the side-topic that was raised in this thread, namely the significance of a Thai Buddhist ceremony WITHOUT!! Amphur registration for a K1 filing.

In this thread littleasianman is warning NOT to do such a thing for those of us who want a K1 - that we run risk of being deemed married and hence needing a K3.

This is precisely my case - I want to do a K1 not a K3. But I would like to honor her family by having the traditional ceremony. And I don't want to have to hide anything in the visa filing or interviews. Our case should be clean-cut, I want to keep it that way.

I've been digging into this topic a great deal today online and offer the following information:

[1]

From website of US Embassy Bangkok http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/marriage.html :

Marriage in Thailand

A legal marriage in Thailand consists of both parties registering their marriage in person with the local Thai Amphur (Civil Registry Office). The United States does recognize the validity of such a marriage.

While they don't discuss the status of a Buddhist ceremony without amphur registration, they do make it very clear that a legal marriage in Thailand MUST have Amphur registration.

[2]

This is from the website of "K1LAWYER.com - Thailand-based U.S. Immigration and K-1 Visa Lawyers - WHITE & WHITE LTD" The info in this FAQ generally looks authentic and accurate, so I'm hoping their response to my issue is correct as well.

It's from http://www.k1law.com/k1visa_faq.htm (actually I cheated - this website is down so I grabbed it from Google's cached pages).

Here's the Q/A from their FAQ directly relevant to the discussion here:

Q. My Thai wife and I were married in a traditional Buddhist ceremony at her family home upcountry. Does that mean that I can no longer file for her as a fiancé and must file for her as my wife

(Immediate Relative)?

A. If you had only a customary ceremony and did not register your marriage at the Amphur (local District Office) you may still file for her as your fiancé. If you registered your marriage at the Amphur, you must file for her as your spouse. Thai marriage customs cause a considerable amount of confusion among foreigners. There are effectively two kinds of “marriage” practiced in Thailand. The first type is a customary or traditional marriage involving a religious ceremony (usually Buddhist) and party for the family and neighbors. While the family and community may recognize the couple as married, such a marriage confers no legal marital status, either for the Thai Government or the U.S. Government. Hence, in the eyes of the law you are not yet legally married and may file for her as your fiancé or, proceed with a registration of the marriage in Thailand after which you must file for her as your spouse.

I think that's pretty cut and dried, and contradicts littleasianman's advice.

[3]

Finally, I used the online-chat facility at one of the Thai legal offices that specializes in K1/K3 filings (http://www.siam-legal.com/). Here's the transcript of the chat I had with them today. He reconfirmed that a non-amphur registered ceremony is OK for K1 filing:

General Info

Chat start time Jul 16, 2008 11:13:32 AM EST

Chat end time Jul 16, 2008 11:22:54 AM EST

Duration (actual chatting time) 00:09:21

Operator Kevin

Chat Transcript

info: Please wait for a site operator to respond.

info: You are now chatting with 'Kevin'

info: Your Issue ID for this chat is LTK14308060368X

Kevin: Welcome to Siam Legal

Kevin: How can I help you?

Ron: hi

Ron: i am an US citizen

Ron: considering doing a K1 finace visa for my thai girlfriend

Ron: i will be going to thailand in sept

Ron: i am also strongly considering a prenuptial agreement

Kevin: Okay

Ron: my question regards the distinction of a ceremonial thai buddhist ceremony vs. registration at "amphur"

Ron: i have been searching on internet about this...

Ron: and see conflicting information

Ron: essentially, if i have a buddhist ceremony ONLY with no amphur registration,

Ron: can i still do a K1 fiance filing,

Ron: or must i do a K3 spousal filing?

Kevin: No, that is not sufficient. you have to register the marriage at the Amphur as well

Ron: ok... so if i dont do the amphur registration, then we can do a K1?

Kevin: Once you have already registered the marriage, I would recommend you to apply for a K3 Marriage Visa

Ron: i dont want to do a K3!

Ron: i want to do a K1

Ron: what i'm trying to ensure is that a buddhist ceremony will not invalidate a K1 filing

Ron: i've been told that at the embassy interview if they ask her about it,and she tells them about hte buddhist ceremony, they can invaldiate the application

Kevin: Ah! okay. Sorry, so, you can apply for a K1 Visa even though you have not registered the marriage at the District office

Ron: and at the embassy interview, and in the initail K1 application, we can freely disclose the buddhist ceremony with no risk?

Kevin: You have to show evidences of relationship ie. emails, photoes, telephone cards, letters of intent to marry

Ron: right, i am aware of that. we can include photos of the buddhist ceremony to reinforce our evidence? with no risk they will interpret it as though we are already married and so must do K3?

Kevin: Yes, you can arrange a ceremonial thai buddhist without any problem

Ron: ok thanks Kevin

Kevin: You're welcome

Ron: that's really what i wanted to confirm

Ron: y

Ron: ty

Well - that's what I've come up with. If anyone else has DIRECT RELEVANT AUTHORITATIVE experience with how the US Embassy in Bangkok considers Buddhist ceremonies with non Amphur on a K1 filing, I would be very happy to hear about it.

[payxibka 10,045]

I suspect that the BKK embassy is fully aware of local traditions and culture. I expect the BKK embassy to be less problematic for you. It is all about perception and disclosure. If you are asked you disclose the truth. I also imagine that if your fiancee says to the officer that we had the traditional engagement ceremony but nothing is registered at amphur they will know what that means.

I also expect the USCIS is NOT full aware of thai culture and traditions. I expect that if you provide "engagement" photos in your initial submission you might give someone "hearburn" because they perceive something based on something they are familiar with against photos of something they are not familiar with.

I also expect that the CBP officer at the POE will be somewhat the same as the USCIS employee.

So my thinking is in the initial submission DO NOT submit photos of the engagement ceremony

At the BKK, provide evidence if asked.

For the POE, place ALL photos of your engagement party (if any) in your checked luggage.

[pushbrk 12,602]

I suspect that the BKK embassy is fully aware of local traditions and culture. I expect the BKK embassy to be less problematic for you. It is all about perception and disclosure. If you are asked you disclose the truth. I also imagine that if your fiancee says to the officer that we had the traditional engagement ceremony but nothing is registered at amphur they will know what that means.

I also expect the USCIS is NOT full aware of thai culture and traditions. I expect that if you provide "engagement" photos in your initial submission you might give someone "hearburn" because they perceive something based on something they are familiar with against photos of something they are not familiar with.

I also expect that the CBP officer at the POE will be somewhat the same as the USCIS employee.

So my thinking is in the initial submission DO NOT submit photos of the engagement ceremony

At the BKK, provide evidence if asked.

For the POE, place ALL photos of your engagement party (if any) in your checked luggage.

If it were me, I'd be more comfortable holding the ceremony after the K1 visa is in hand. If you need a ceremony sooner for some family reason, I recommend registering it and filing for a spouse visa. Your chat conversation doesn't contain straight answers to direct questions and you don't know who "Kevin" is or what he knows or doesn't know about what you asked. He clearly misunderstood you from the begining.

[Carlawarla 1]

Another member from your fiance's home country, had the visa in hand...he went over to her country for the interview, then they had their "non-legal" traditional ceremony for her family, THEN flew back to the US, and then fulfilled their requirements of the K-1 by having a small legal ceremony here within the 90 days. That way you have the best of both worlds, without having to explain to anyone about legal vs non-legal ceremonies.

All the best!

[KimandRuss 0]

I agree with Carla and the others. No matter what the Consulate says.. it is at the discretion of the person interviewing your fiance to decide. It is also at the discretion of the POE officer. If anyone even suspects you are married (no matter what you say or what documents you have) you will be subject to more scrutiny.

Many of us have been here long enough to have seen it happen more than once.

How lucky do you feel?

[scandal 951]

I agree with Carla and the others. No matter what the Consulate says.. it is at the discretion of the person interviewing your fiance to decide. It is also at the discretion of the POE officer. If anyone even suspects you are married (no matter what you say or what documents you have) you will be subject to more scrutiny.

Many of us have been here long enough to have seen it happen more than once.

How lucky do you feel?

Thanks for all responses so far - KimandRuss, Carla, pushbrk, fwaguy ... very helpful food for thought.

Still haven't made any decisions yet, mulling it all over.

KimRuss: Love the Dirty Harry reference.... I guess maybe I feel pretty lucky, punk that I am

Regarding the 'risk' we are running should we choose this route - I guess I am curious:

If we were to begin a K1 process and it got denied, I am thinking that the worst case scenario is we would have to start over with K3 right? Namely, I'd have to return to Thailand to register at Amphur so that the marriage is now legally complete, and then resubmit. There is a possible loss of time and money but no actual risk of her not getting an eventually valid entry visa. Time: we've had to be patient for 1.5 years already while my divorce was pending. We still have ~6mos-1year now for the visa stuff, so we know how to wait and can wait a bit more if that becomes necessary. Money: well, $ for a return trip to Thailand to see my honey - bonus! As to $ for refiling an application - well that can be absorbed if necessary.

My greatest fear would be not a denial during initial processing by USCIS or at the Embassy interview. She is still in Thailand during those stages. Rather - my fear is what might be the significance of POE denial? I have visions of her at JFK, with me on the other side of the gate not able to talk to her or explain anything to the agent, and the agent unceremoniously putting her on a plane back to Thailand or into some detention center on Rikers island or something. Yikes! What power do POE agents have? What appeals are possible then/there at airport, or later? Do I get to personally intervene on her behalf, or is she entirely on her own at that point?

Have I assessed correctly the 'worst case' risk? Is it even riskier than that in some way I haven't considered? I.e. some kind of draconian permanent denial, no visa for life situation? Go Directly to Jail, Do not pass Go, do not collect $200?

[KimandRuss 0]

At least you have a sense of humor... you'll need it!

By the time you reach interview stage for the K1 you are not going to want to wait any longer. We've waited almost a decade, for many of the same reasons you have, and it doesn't get any easier.

The risk of being denied at the POE is low but it's still there. Say she is wearing a ring or mentions that 'her hubby' is waiting. Simple as that. You can take every precaution not to 'let it slip' but things happen. If you are denied at the Consulate level because they believe you are married then yes, most likely there will be some issue trying to resolve it. Eventually it comes back to the uscis and is scrutinized again.... etc...etc... You wait to be sure that petition is void and then on to spousal visa... right now, taking even longer than the K1.

There are tons of posts here about people being denied at the interview stage because they had some sort of 'ceremony' before hand. We're not just blowing smoke here. Here's one just from today...

She would only receive a ban if fraud was committed... an overstay, lying..etc. Or if she admits to drug abuse..things like that.

There are certainly folks who have these ceremonies but after being on VJ for so long and hearing the horror stories... I would advise against it or.... as mentioned previously... wait until that visa is in the passport (you have 6 months to use it) and then make no mention of your little gathering upon entry to the US.

[Thai family 0]

Why don't you email the embassy and have them answer the question? visasbkk@state.gov Some people have more success with visas2bkk@state.gov. "IV Inquiry" needs to be in the subject line along with your surname. They want a case number, but obviously you don't have one yet. Another helpful source is the visa information office here in the states:

Phone: 202-663-1225 Fax: 202-663-3899. You can actually talk to a person there after waiting on hold.

You are right. A marriage is not legal in Thailand until registered at the Amphur, and I believe the consulate sees it that way, but it's understandable that you don't want to take chances.

My kids K-3 interview will be right at 8 months after filing. YMMV

Thai Mom

[KimandRuss 0]

Even if you get that answer from one official (or whomever answers the phone or emails you back) at the Consulate it does not mean another person there is going to interpret it the same way. It's not suppose to be legal in India either but yet another couple has just been given the 221g.

I know in some cultures it's extremely important to have a ceremony with family and it's certainly too bad it's just not easier to do but it is what it is.... a risk.

[wifetobe 2]

Rex,

i want to reiterate again... MAKE SURE you DO NOT let the embassy know you had a formal wedding ceremony, it doesn't matter if it is non-legal or not. I would NOT recommend it but if you are going to then don't let them know

hi evrybody,

i've photos of our engagement, photos with my family and look like a marriage ceremony anyway, is it risky to show that ? how can they know if it's a marriage or engagement ceremony ? thanks for your advices.

4 out of 5 consulates would most likely deny a K1 visa because your engagement ceremony 'looked like a marriage ceremony.' The 5th consulate was home sick..

I would suggest bringing in any other evidence apart from those pictures.. you do not need to prove that u got engaged but more importantly that you have a bonafide relationship and that the petitioner can financially support you etc. The very best of luck if you decide to take the pics with you.

[scandal 951]

Another member from your fiance's home country, had the visa in hand...he went over to her country for the interview, then they had their "non-legal" traditional ceremony for her family, THEN flew back to the US, and then fulfilled their requirements of the K-1 by having a small legal ceremony here within the 90 days. That way you have the best of both worlds, without having to explain to anyone about legal vs non-legal ceremonies.

All the best!

similarly, KimandRuss wrote: ... I would advise against it or.... as mentioned previously... wait until that visa is in the passport (you have 6 months to use it) and then make no mention of your little gathering upon entry to the US.

In thinking about all this some more, I don't really understand this advice.

As I understand it, the logic being offered is to get the K1 entirely above board - no wedding/betrothal/engagement etc. ceremonies until after passing the interview stage and getting the visa in her passport. Then return to her country for the ceremony. And then board flight back to the states (one nice thing about that I suppose is we can fly back together, and enter POE together). However that still would mean needing to duck the ceremony issue at POE and run the risk of rejection there. That's still no different than if we did the ceremony even before beginning the I-129F filing.

It seems to me that it eliminates - at best - 2/3 of risk (USCIS rejection of I-129F, Consulate rejection at interview) but not final 1/3 of risk (POE rejection).

The only entirely risk free approaches seem to be: (1) K1 with NO ceremony. PERIOD. Nada. Nyet. Then, with K1 in hand, have her come to US, and marry civilly. Then at some future point (probably after Green card) return to Thailand for Buddhist ceremonial wedding. (2) Go for K3. Just bite the bullet, do the ceremony with Amphur registration, and remove any and all ambiguity about what our status is while we are filing and awaiting visa.

I think anything other than these two approaches has some degree of the 'risk' we are discussing. And if so it's all a question of risk management, contingency planning, etc. Once the risk is quantified and the contingencies planned, well now it's just time to execute the gameplan. As you can probably tell by now I'm a Project Manager by profession

[tenderheartusa79 14]

Rex,

i want to reiterate again... MAKE SURE you DO NOT let the embassy know you had a formal wedding ceremony, it doesn't matter if it is non-legal or not. I would NOT recommend it but if you are going to then don't let them know

hi evrybody,

i've photos of our engagement, photos with my family and look like a marriage ceremony anyway, is it risky to show that ? how can they know if it's a marriage or engagement ceremony ? thanks for your advices.

Rachbel,

I mentioned two times up there already that it's NOT a good idea to show these photos. The embassy MAY consider it a marriage ceremony and won't care ig it's legal or not. I don't understand why people take this risk of having these things and then after all that showing the photos. There was a thread earlier about a bunch of people who got denied because they showed these photos at the consulate or embassy and got denied because the embassy said they were alread married and neede to apply for a K3/

Hi,

i realized that the photos i sent with the original package as proof of having met in persons includ photos of our engagements, so i wonder what can happen if i have interview next days , does the petitioner needs to make like a sworn and sign and declare that we are not married yet,? is this a possible suggestion ? hope to hear ur advices. thanks much.

well i think its different between a consulate and another .

maybe its risky at one consulate and its not at another.

there are so many members from Egypt from example and they sent their engagement pictures and they didn't get any issue .and believe it or not they asked some of them if they are married Orfi (Islamic way) and they said yes and the CO at the embassy said its ok i just want to know if you are honest or not .and the CO said it will not effect your K1 visa at all . and those people got their visa .

Good luck

[KimandRuss 0]

I can see why you wouldnt understand the advice when there is still a risk ...but if the ceremony is that important to you and to her and her family then that is the option with the least amount of risk involved and the option others have taken. You are not normally scrutinized at the POE as you might be at the Embassy. You have visa in hand and all they want to do is make sure your documents are in order and that you are not a risk.

Your options are correct. Good luck with whichever route you choose.

Another member from your fiance's home country, had the visa in hand...he went over to her country for the interview, then they had their "non-legal" traditional ceremony for her family, THEN flew back to the US, and then fulfilled their requirements of the K-1 by having a small legal ceremony here within the 90 days. That way you have the best of both worlds, without having to explain to anyone about legal vs non-legal ceremonies.

All the best!

similarly, KimandRuss wrote: ... I would advise against it or.... as mentioned previously... wait until that visa is in the passport (you have 6 months to use it) and then make no mention of your little gathering upon entry to the US.

In thinking about all this some more, I don't really understand this advice.

As I understand it, the logic being offered is to get the K1 entirely above board - no wedding/betrothal/engagement etc. ceremonies until after passing the interview stage and getting the visa in her passport. Then return to her country for the ceremony. And then board flight back to the states (one nice thing about that I suppose is we can fly back together, and enter POE together). However that still would mean needing to duck the ceremony issue at POE and run the risk of rejection there. That's still no different than if we did the ceremony even before beginning the I-129F filing.

It seems to me that it eliminates - at best - 2/3 of risk (USCIS rejection of I-129F, Consulate rejection at interview) but not final 1/3 of risk (POE rejection).

The only entirely risk free approaches seem to be: (1) K1 with NO ceremony. PERIOD. Nada. Nyet. Then, with K1 in hand, have her come to US, and marry civilly. Then at some future point (probably after Green card) return to Thailand for Buddhist ceremonial wedding. (2) Go for K3. Just bite the bullet, do the ceremony with Amphur registration, and remove any and all ambiguity about what our status is while we are filing and awaiting visa.

I think anything other than these two approaches has some degree of the 'risk' we are discussing. And if so it's all a question of risk management, contingency planning, etc. Once the risk is quantified and the contingencies planned, well now it's just time to execute the gameplan. As you can probably tell by now I'm a Project Manager by profession