Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What about other cultures and groups who where repressed and enslaved in the passed? Why is it they're not violent and terrorizing people? And not conveniently using repression as an excuse. Australia was colonized in 1788. The development of the aborigines was nowhere near that of the English. Violence has always been a way of life within their community yet you continue to falsely link this to repression. Should I bring up the cannibalistic Maori you constantly bring up from New Zealand. It must have been repression as well that brought that on the day the dutch landed there. My ancestor greet people rather then eat them.

All of those groups were subject to repression at one time or another. All of them have significant (dare I say it 'comparable') social problems - including a disproportionate number occupying jail cells. Again - Caladan made the point very concisely with regards to Black Americans, which again you've chose to ignore. Again I wonder why that is, and yes I still think you want to single out Black Americans to the exclusion of similar, formerly repressed groups in other countries. I don't think you want to see or acknowledge the similarities.

Nonetheless, are you basically stating that if you where a violently attacked by a black American you would simply 'let it slide' because they where once 'repressed'?? Should we have two sets of rules one for black Americans and one for everybody else???

Oh Jesus. For the fiftieth time - no, no, no, no, NO! Read my posts instead of endlesslly raking up the rubbish over and over and over again - trying to make a point that was never made. I have never at any point said that criminals should be 'let off' because of the historical/social factors pertaining to their socio-ethnic group. In fact, I've said the exact opposite several times throughout this thread - which you continue to ignore. Clearly I'm not saying the right thing to match your preconceived retorts.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Number 6

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

well duh... australia isn't quite the bastion of forward thinking that some wished it was.

The must be doing something right considering they have the highest living standard and life expectancy in comparison to every other English speaking nation.

Probably not if you are of Aboriginal descent

A lot is being done to help them out. Including the recent half a million dollar stolen generation payout. Lets not even talk about the hundreds of miles of land that has been handed back to them. Many also collect thousands of dollars a month in paychecks from companies mining Aboriginal land. The government provides quite a bit of assistance for them to study. As per the following which does not have to be paid back..

Basic Study Allowances - Aboriginals

n Living Allowance:

Standard

Aged under 16 years tertiary $26.20 pf

Aged under 16 years in State Care and

Foster Care Allowance paid $190.50 pf

Aged 16–17 years in State Care and

Foster Care Allowance paid $190.50 pf

Aged 18–20 years in State Care and

Foster Care Allowance paid $229.10 pf

Aged under 16 years in State Care and no

Foster Care Allowance paid $348.10 pf

Aged 16–20 years in State Care and no

Foster Care Allowance paid $348.10 pf

Aged 16–17 years $190.50 pf

Aged 18–20 years $229.10 pf

Aged 21 years or over* $424.30 pf

Away from home

Aged under 16 years $190.50 pf

Aged 16–20 years $348.10 pf

Aged 21 years or over* $424.30 pf

Independent—single, no children

Aged under 16 years $348.10 pf

Aged 16–20 years $348.10 pf

Aged under 16 years at home $190.50 pf

Aged 16–17 years at home $190.50 pf

Aged 18–20 years at home $229.10 pf

Aged 21 years or over* $424.30 pf

Single, aged 60 years or over*

(includes Pharmaceutical Allowance) $464.70 pf

Independent—partnered, no children

Aged under 16 years $348.10 pf

Aged 16–20 years $348.10 pf

Aged 21 years or over* $382.80 pf

Independent—single with dependent child

Aged under 16 years $456.00 pf

Aged 16–20 years $456.00 pf

Aged 21 years or over* $458.90 pf

Independent—partnered with

dependent child

Aged under 16 years $382.20 pf

Aged 16–20 years $382.20 pf

Aged 21 years or over* $382.80 pf

* These amounts are indexed every March and September

n School Term Allowance $540.80 pa

n School Fees Allowance (at home):

Turning 16 before 1 July in

school year $78.00 pa

Aged under 16 years at 30 June in

school year $156.00 pa

n School Fees Allowance (boarding):

Maximum rate (subject to income test) $7536.00 pa

Income test-free $6396.00 pa

n Incidentals Allowance:

Less than 12 week course $66.90 pa

12 to 16 week course $117.10 pa

17 to 23 week (one semester) course $233.10 pa

24 week to one year course $473.50 pa

n Additional Incidentals Allowance

Essential course costs in excess of

less than 12 week course $115.00 pa

12 to 16 week course $227.80 pa

17 to 23 week (one semester) course $455.50 pa

24 week to one year course $912.40 pa

Maximum in a year $2080.00 pa

n Lawful Custody Allowance essential course costs

n Aged under 16 years Boarding

Supplement $2054.40 per semester

n Residential Costs Option $41.60 pf plus actual costs

n Masters and Doctorate allowances:

Masters and Doctorate student $19 616.00 pa

living allowance $752.40 pf

Relocation Allowance $1520.00 maximum

($530.00 adult; $260.00 child)

Thesis Allowance—one-off payment

– Masters actual costs, maximum payment $420.00

– PhD actual costs, maximum payment $840.00

Compulsory course fees or Student Contribution

Amounts (previously known as HECS) actual costs

n Fares Allowance (Students only) actual costs

n Away from base assistance actual costs

Maximum payment for Masters/PhD is

$2080.00 per year.

n Remote Area Allowance is payable.

n Pharmaceutical Allowance may be paid.

And yet the problems remain. disproportionately high percentage in jail, low general standard of education and a greater likelihood of being unemployed. Still don't see the similarities?

[Heracles 417]

What about other cultures and groups who where repressed and enslaved in the passed? Why is it they're not violent and terrorizing people? And not conveniently using repression as an excuse. Australia was colonized in 1788. The development of the aborigines was nowhere near that of the English. Violence has always been a way of life within their community yet you continue to falsely link this to repression. Should I bring up the cannibalistic Maori you constantly bring up from New Zealand. It must have been repression as well that brought that on the day the dutch landed there. My ancestor greet people rather then eat them.

All of those groups were subject to repression at one time or another. All of them have significant (dare I say it 'comparable') social problems - including a disproportionate number occupying jail cells. Again - Caladan made the point very concisely with regards to Black Americans, which again you've chose to ignore. Again I wonder why that is, and yes I still think you want to single out Black Americans to the exclusion of similar, formerly repressed groups in other countries. I don't think you want to see or acknowledge the similarities.

What about the 'Indentured servants' who where basically white slaves in America? Should they also be entitled to commit crimes because of the past. Or because they are not black we should let it slide hey.

Many cultures have been a victim or oppression, injustice and slavery. Maybe they should all use violence and crime as a means to express their anger? Or does your theory have a statue of limitation on the number of years it can apply. The Jews where oppressed and even slaughtered. Why is it I do not see them playing the victim and using it as a means to exhort violence? Ahhh yes they are not black and only black people have suffered. Maybe we should just throw out the history books out and replace them them Number_6's "The Black man's suffering throughout history. White man does not count..".

On one hand you sit here and say that you are against violence committed by anyone. Yet on the other you state that crime and violence within certain communities is understandable due to previous oppression and poverty.

[Heracles 417]

And yet the problems remain. disproportionately high percentage in jail, low general standard of education and a greater likelihood of being unemployed. Still don't see the similarities?

In America you claim it is the poverty. In AUS they are doing everything under the sun to help them yet you still blame the white man. All of the African nations Europeans occupied have been handed back and left for them to manage. That has failed as well so it must be the white man to blame again.

So what would you like us to do? Become their slaves. It is the only thing left.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And yet the problems remain. disproportionately high percentage in jail, low general standard of education and a greater likelihood of being unemployed. Still don't see the similarities?

In America you claim it is the poverty. In AUS they are doing everything under the sun to help them yet you still blame the white man. All of the African nations Europeans occupied have been handed back and left for them to manage. That has failed as well so it must be the white man to blame again.

So what would you like us to do? Become their slaves. It is the only thing left.

It is the poverty. All of those groups I mentioned are more likely to be living at or below the poverty line, and enjoy a much lower than usual standard of living. Poverty causes crime - as to what causes poverty - again we're back at social inequalities.

And no - I'm not 'blaming' the white man (why does it always have to be about 'blame'?) - just trying to point out that society is unequal, in this case by virtue of past repressions. We're talking about a 'historical legacy' (again referencing Caladan's point on the other page).

[Jason-Sasha 1]

There are certain truths that most liberal Americans choose to ignore or shun. blacks and whites are and should always be equal in every way. But there's no denying that blacks, unfortunately, make up most of the crime in this country, hence the number of criminals behind bars is higher for their communities. Black Americans don't make up 25% of the total population in the States, yet they outnumber whites in prison 4 to 1. #######? Lack of education has everything to do with it. That and the fact that so many blacks are fatherless. Its a real shame. Please dont go getting angry with me for saying these things. They are the truth and its time for a change. Have you watched MTV lately? The media isnt helping.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What about the 'Indentured servants' who where basically white slaves in America? Should they also be entitled to commit crimes because of the past. Or because they are not black we should let it slide hey.

51st time - in case you missed it: NO!

Many cultures have been a victim or oppression, injustice and slavery. Maybe they should all use violence and crime as a means to express their anger? Or does your theory have a statue of limitation on the number of years it can apply. The Jews where oppressed and even slaughtered. Why is it I do not see them playing the victim and using it as a means to exhort violence? Ahhh yes they are not black and only black people have suffered. Maybe we should just throw out the history books out and replace them them Number_6's "The Black man's suffering throughout history. White man does not count..".

On one hand you sit here and say that you are against violence committed by anyone. Yet on the other you state that crime and violence within certain communities is understandable due to previous oppression and poverty.

There are two issues here - the punishment of people who commit criminal acts (yes - they should be punished). Secondly, there are also general social trends which highlight existing inequalities in our society and which go some way to explaining the general situation of certain groups. You're confusing 'explanation' with 'justification'.

Again - the parallels between the situation of Aborigines, Native Americans, Black Americans, Maoris are pretty clear IMO. What I object to is your singling out of the Black Americans based solely on a sub-culture that you don't like - while ignoring the more than passing similarities in other countries.

[Heracles 417]

It is the poverty. All of those groups I mentioned are more likely to be living at or below the poverty line, and enjoy a much lower than usual standard of living. Poverty causes crime - as to what causes poverty - again we're back at social inequalities.

And no - I'm not 'blaming' the white man (why does it always have to be about 'blame'?) - just trying to point out that society is unequal, in this case by virtue of past repressions. We're talking about a 'historical legacy' (again referencing Caladan's point on the other page).

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying but what else can we do. It is now up to them. Nowadays, they have every opportunity to get somewhere like anyone else does. If not more considering measures such as 'Affirmative Action' or EBT to cover necessities.

They have a range of options such as :

• Free Education
  
• Various financial aid schemes for college
  
• Trade Schools
  
• Employment in industries such as farming etc - which requires moving and hard work
  

It is clear that many do not want to do any of the above. So now what..

There are certain truths that most liberal Americans choose to ignore or shun. blacks and whites are and should always be equal in every way. But there's no denying that blacks, unfortunately, make up most of the crime in this country, hence the number of criminals behind bars is higher for their communities. Black Americans don't make up 25% of the total population in the States, yet they outnumber whites in prison 4 to 1. #######? Lack of education has everything to do with it. That and the fact that so many blacks are fatherless. Its a real shame. Please dont go getting angry with me for saying these things. They are the truth and its time for a change. Have you watched MTV lately? The media isnt helping.

Which is apparently due to slavery and oppression.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It is the poverty. All of those groups I mentioned are more likely to be living at or below the poverty line, and enjoy a much lower than usual standard of living. Poverty causes crime - as to what causes poverty - again we're back at social inequalities.

And no - I'm not 'blaming' the white man (why does it always have to be about 'blame'?) - just trying to point out that society is unequal, in this case by virtue of past repressions. We're talking about a 'historical legacy' (again referencing Caladan's point on the other page).

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying but what else can we do. It is now up to them. Nowadays, they have every opportunity to get somewhere like anyone else does. If not more considering measures such as 'Affirmative Action' or EBT to cover necessities.

They have a range of options such as :

• Free Education
  
• Various financial aid schemes for college
  
• Trade Schools
  
• Employment in industries such as farming etc - which requires moving and hard work
  

It is clear that many do not want to do any of the above. So now what..

Do you apply that same reasoning to the aboriginal Australians?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Which is apparently due to slavery and oppression.

Rather its due to the historical legacy arising from past repression. You agree with me in one post, but scoff at the same opinion in another. Can you get any more inconsistent?

Social inequalities lead to poverty. Poverty leads to crime. We're not talking brain surgery here - and there's only so many times that I can state the obvious, only for you to agree one minute and disagree the next.

[Heracles 417]

Do you apply that same reasoning to the aboriginal Australians?

I knew a family who lived near a huge aboriginal area and they would always say how the 'Government' would build them 'free' houses, which would be destroy, as well as give them 'free' cars which would have the doors ripped out and then also be destroyed.

So we give them:

• Allowances.
  
• Twice the welfare of everyone else.
  
• Half their land back for them to control
  
• Free houses and cars
  
• Absolutely free education with Free living expenses.
  
• Affirmative action for them to get jobs. Even if someone else is better qualified. They just need to apply.
  
• $525,000 in damages for the stolen generation
  

What else would you like us to do?

[Heracles 417]

Social inequalities lead to poverty. Poverty leads to crime. We're not talking brain surgery here - and there's only so many times that I can state the obvious, only for you to agree one minute and disagree the next.

And I have stated over and over again that there are many other races and cultures who where also treated unfairly, oppressed and where slaves, yet have not resorted to crime. Your only response to that seems to be that they are basically not black. As such with the Aborigines, Maoris etc..

[thetreble 19]

usually, minorities in msot states are locked up more than whites..per capita...indians in so. dakota etc...

Actually in some states, certain ethnic populations ARE NOT minorities. Here in NJ, my husband comes from a town called Hillside (next to elizabeth and newark) where African-Americans include something like 87% of the residents there. In many towns in NJ, this is the case.

Also, the natives in Canada are also a tropic of conversation on many occasions. They are free of tax, have access to free education, many forms of government aid etc. however, still cannot, as a people, rid themselves from being the most concentrated population of sexual abusers/drug abusers/poverty, etc. There is not much more our government can do. They have done so much. Sometimes, a community needs to look inward and decide for themselves if they are going to try to solve some of their problems considering they do have resources.

Edited August 5, 2007 by thetreble

[Jenn! 918]

If we can't look to a long history of social inequality to explain (note explain, not excuse) the disparity in crime rates among ethnic groups, than what is the explanation? Genetic predisposition?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Interesting that you mention the stolen generation - as I recall you refused to acknowledge that the Australian Government should apologise for that, despite the fact that it happened in living memory, and that there are people still alive who were directly affected by it. That's not exactly 'doing all you can' is it - especially considering that those initiatives you mentioned aren't in anyways string-free (and I believe the Howard Government has been criticised by the UNHCR for its handling of that issue). Moreover, if the Australian government can't accept responsibility for the legacy of its past - it doesn't bode well for the future. Nor does a bottomless pit of welfare.

Lets not pretend that Australia is the unified paradise you'd like people to believe.