Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites

[Scott & Lai 12]

The experiences of your ancestors isn't 'your experience'. What was reality for them is essentially fiction for you (which can actually be said about any reading of history).

and that pretty much sums up the entire slavery arguement in this thread, eh?

Certainly - in the sense that hearing a second-hand story (through whatever medium) doesn't convey the emotional experience of the people involved.

Take the Holocaust, for instance - everyone likes to throw around figures and death tolls, but when you look at it on a page or hear it on TV its nothing more than a bare statistic. Without being able to fully appreciate that those numbers relate to real people its hard to form an emotional connection to it or to the people involved (ever seen people break down at the Auschwitz memorial?) There's something to be said for 'tangible history'.

Similiarly while I can't imagine being tortured, I can go to the London Dungeon or Tower of London, see the torture engines and imagine that being incarcerated there in the middle-ages wouldn't have been a pleasant experience.

yet one difference is we have survivors of the holocaust still alive, whereas we don't have anyone alive who was a former slave.

Or the child, grandchild or great-grandchild of a slave.

[Heracles 417]

Similiarly while I can't imagine being tortured, I can go to the London Dungeon or Tower of London, see the torture engines and imagine that being incarcerated there in the middle-ages wouldn't have been a pleasant experience.

Hey you said it. 'African' American slaves where not the only people who went through hardship. The difference is pretty much everyone else has moved on.

All other BS aside, the fundamental issue I have is that there are people in America who are using slavery and segregation as an excuse to intimidate, commit & justify crimes and even hatred towards others. As seen in my previous post.

What I would like to know is. What is 'your' solution to "Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites".

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The experiences of your ancestors isn't 'your experience'. What was reality for them is essentially fiction for you (which can actually be said about any reading of history).

and that pretty much sums up the entire slavery arguement in this thread, eh?

Certainly - in the sense that hearing a second-hand story (through whatever medium) doesn't convey the emotional experience of the people involved.

Take the Holocaust, for instance - everyone likes to throw around figures and death tolls, but when you look at it on a page or hear it on TV its nothing more than a bare statistic. Without being able to fully appreciate that those numbers relate to real people its hard to form an emotional connection to it or to the people involved (ever seen people break down at the Auschwitz memorial?) There's something to be said for 'tangible history'.

Similiarly while I can't imagine being tortured, I can go to the London Dungeon or Tower of London, see the torture engines and imagine that being incarcerated there in the middle-ages wouldn't have been a pleasant experience.

yet one difference is we have survivors of the holocaust still alive, whereas we don't have anyone alive who was a former slave.

No we don't. But as pointed out earlier - it would be a mistake to suggest that the US (even today) isn't still dealing with the fallout from slavery.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What I would like to know is. What is 'your' solution to "Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites".

I'm not going to say that we shouldn't imprison people who have committed criminal acts, if that's what you're after.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hey you said it. 'African' American slaves where not the only people who went through hardship. The difference is pretty much everyone else has moved on.

To a point. The holocaust is still in living memory, and you need only go back 3 or 4 generations to find people who had living "ex-slave" relatives.

Sure they're not alive today - but to suggest that 3 generations is sufficient time to 'get over' something like that and for society to be 'equal' isn't altogether realistic IMO.

[Heracles 417]

What I would like to know is. What is 'your' solution to "Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites".

I'm not going to say that we shouldn't imprison people who have committed criminal acts, if that's what you're after.

I am asking for a real world workable solutions to the problem. Solutions to decreasing the crime rate amongst black Americans. Reasons to why they are committing crimes.

My solution of working on the cultural attitudes and perception towards crime and poverty in the community was made out to be racist.

[Heracles 417]

Sure they're not alive today - but to suggest that 3 generations is sufficient time to 'get over' something like that and for society to be 'equal' isn't altogether realistic IMO.

Psychology 101. There is only one person who can change that. Dwelling on the past is never ever the solution. Let alone using it to justify ones situation; 50 years later..

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

Hey you said it. 'African' American slaves where not the only people who went through hardship. The difference is pretty much everyone else has moved on.

To a point. The holocaust is still in living memory, and you need only go back 3 or 4 generations to find people who had living "ex-slave" relatives.

Sure they're not alive today - but to suggest that 3 generations is sufficient time to 'get over' something like that and for society to be 'equal' isn't altogether realistic IMO.

so how many more generations get to use such as a crutch while subjecting everyone else to racial quotas and set asides?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What I would like to know is. What is 'your' solution to "Blacks in U.S. imprisoned at 5 times the rate of whites".

I'm not going to say that we shouldn't imprison people who have committed criminal acts, if that's what you're after.

I am asking for a real world workable solutions to the problem. Solutions to decreasing the crime rate amongst black Americans. Reasons to why they are committing crimes.

As I recall you didn't have answer for that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hey you said it. 'African' American slaves where not the only people who went through hardship. The difference is pretty much everyone else has moved on.

To a point. The holocaust is still in living memory, and you need only go back 3 or 4 generations to find people who had living "ex-slave" relatives.

Sure they're not alive today - but to suggest that 3 generations is sufficient time to 'get over' something like that and for society to be 'equal' isn't altogether realistic IMO.

so how many more generations get to use such as a crutch while subjecting everyone else to racial quotas and set asides?

Well doesn't this assume that its only used as an excuse and that there aren't real-world disparities (economic and otherwise) resulting from that period of history? What about Native Americans - are they fully integrated and enfranchised into the canvass of America? Still has, I believe, the highest tendency towards alcholism and suicide of any ethnic group...

Perhaps a good example would be South Africa. Apartheid was abolished in the 90's - but large numbers of South African blacks still live in poverty (in shanty towns). How many generations will it take to improve their condition?

[Heracles 417]

Hey you said it. 'African' American slaves where not the only people who went through hardship. The difference is pretty much everyone else has moved on.

To a point. The holocaust is still in living memory, and you need only go back 3 or 4 generations to find people who had living "ex-slave" relatives.

Sure they're not alive today - but to suggest that 3 generations is sufficient time to 'get over' something like that and for society to be 'equal' isn't altogether realistic IMO.

so how many more generations get to use such as a crutch while subjecting everyone else to racial quotas and set asides?

Indefinitely as some people today clearly have the green light to kill or be violent; due to someone's ancestors being a slave in the 1800's, or being segregated prior to the 60's or is living in poverty. Funnily enough the article states that the crime imprisonment rates are the highest in the blue states. States which had the lowest rate of slavery; if any.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Heracles 417]

Perhaps a good example would be South Africa. Apartheid was abolished in the 90's - but large numbers of South African blacks still live in poverty (in shanty towns). How many generations will it take to improve their condition?

There is a huge difference between 13 years to 50+ years.

Minorities have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else in the US. They have access to the same FREE education as well as federal aid for college.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Going back to you 'real world solutions' query. I'm not sure there is a 'quick and easy' solution to this - and certainly not if you fundamentally misunderstand the problem.

You mentioned 'cultural factors' rather than poverty as the reason that US blacks are more likely to commit crime and swell jail populations. US blacks living in predominantly urban, inner city areas, which have (and I won't deny this), lower general standards of education, higher unemployment, generally lower wages and a lower life average expectancy.

Now look at South Africa, which you brought into the argument (albeit as a subtext). South Africa being a country with a predominantly black population - most of whom still live in shanty town-like settlements amid crushing poverty.

There is a high crime rate in both of these situations, yet South Africa doesn't have the same 'culture' that inner city blacks in the US have. So clearly 'culture' alone is not the cause of the problem. The only other correlating factor would be poverty...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Perhaps a good example would be South Africa. Apartheid was abolished in the 90's - but large numbers of South African blacks still live in poverty (in shanty towns). How many generations will it take to improve their condition?

There is a huge difference between 13 years to 50+ years.

Minorities have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else in the US. They have access to the same FREE education as well as federal aid for college.

Ask the Native Americans.

More to the point - ask the Australian Aborigines.

[Heracles 417]

Unfortunately poverty is not by choice for many South Africans.. How is it that so many other people from various parts of the world come to America with very little, if anything, yet are able to become good honest hard working residents or citizens and build something for themselves and their family.

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The following MSNBC report on the progress of New Orleans gives a good insight into the differences in attitude and culture amongst other communities.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19292199/

Perhaps a good example would be South Africa. Apartheid was abolished in the 90's - but large numbers of South African blacks still live in poverty (in shanty towns). How many generations will it take to improve their condition?

There is a huge difference between 13 years to 50+ years.

Minorities have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else in the US. They have access to the same FREE education as well as federal aid for college.

Ask the Native Americans.

More to the point - ask the Australian Aborigines.

That is by choice. Do you know how much aid and welfare they get compared to every other poor Australian? at least twice as much.