Patience with your S/O

[AInfante-Saraireh 0]

This really is a good post. I want to comment about Jordan. My first trip to Jordan, I was so upset, I cried. Now I am 5'3, blonde hair, blue eyes and i couldn't go anywhere in the summer in Jordan without people staring at me, both men and women. During the first visit, a man with his saudi wife almost crashed coz he had to lean over to look at who that blonde woman was? It didn't bother my husband. He held on me, proud to have me as his wife. He said, don't worry about the women, they are just jealous coz your skin and hair are so nice and your eyes are blue. Even the bus ride was miserable. I just couldn't walk comfortably anywhere, whistles, honking horns, women looking as if they were talking nasty about me. But I also received many, many warm welcomes. It's a thing, that if you look western, etc., hey, face it, they think they are taking their men, and we are! So I finally got a grip of myself at the end of the trip. What could I do. It was like that my second trip and it was winter there. Even flying out on royal jordan, the stares, but eventually some walked up to me and wished me a safe trip and a good journey in Jordan. I still got the same stares. And one time, I got out of the car, coz myhusband had a hard time parking and needed to go to the ATM. As soon as I stepped out and started walking by myself, oh my God! The taxi's, like 5 of them immediately pulled up and honking like crazy and then other cars, was so wild and actually uncomfortable. Anyway, this time i wouldn't let it bother me, i said so be it!

Now my husband would love it to death! if I wore the hijab. But he doesn't force it. He really likes the Hijab and also it's a cultural and Islamic way of them having authority over you, really it is. I mean, this doesn't show the body, etc. And they like it! My husband is pretty cool, and times he does get pushy but not in a negative way, but I can understand that American woman are more liberal and sometimes, we do need to be put into our place. Really, sometimes it's a respect thing they have. We are two different cultures, regardless if we are American Arab or just plain ole Americans. We are raised in a country that is liberal, freedom of speech and can wear what we want most of the time. Over there, it's not that way. And so that's what they know, and we know what we know and really, I believe the first year of any relationship, whether it be marriage or engagement, the first year is the hardest, this is where you really touch bases. The second year is the blending. Have no clue about the third yet, haven't gotten that far. LOL

Also the distance, it's a nightmare, it even leaves me occasionally insecure and I'm not at all like that. YOu can't worry about the control thing, you have to work with them on what feels comfortable, what makes you feel like you and them feel like themselves. YOu can't be who you are not, it never works. I also was married before and to a very very very controling man. So to me, it's about blending, understanding and blending. Knowing who you are to him and who he is you to you. Letting him know who you are to him, etc. It's making the bed comfortable to lie in.

Have to run now, I could go on. And i probably repeated myself, but so what, that's me.

Have a great day

Andrea

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

You can't go there if you are a citizen of Jordan?

Jordanian females would have a much better chance of crossing than Jordanian males age 15-45 (unless they have specific business, education, or political ties, or pressing family matters.... but even then it's dicey.) In all my travels, I have never seen any Jordanian male in that age group even attempt to cross the Israeli border check (at least since the Intifada.) I've seen plenty of older businessmen make the trip, though, without much trouble.

MK

[pax 0]

...we do need to be put into our place.

And where, pray tell, is that?

[jordanianprincess 0]

...we do need to be put into our place.

And where, pray tell, is that?

Please don't take what Andrea said out of context I think what she meant is that when you travel to a conservative country like Jordan, you can't prance around the same way you do here in the US. We need to realize that we have to be a bit more cautious about what we do. Sometimes I go off on a tangent with my fiance about, I don't need a man to tell me what to do, I can wear what I want, etc. Putting me in my place, is more so making me realize where I am and more so as a form of protection from peoples rudeness

Edited April 21, 2006 by jordanianprincess

[pax 0]

I don't think I'm taking it out of context, really.

I know I'm not one of the ME/NA ladies, but I've been reading this thread with a ton of interest--and I mean that sincerely. I was actually talking about it with Ewen at dinner last night. I think some of the posts here have been fascinating, funny, wise, and great examples of how cultures mix (or don't, in some cases).

But I hate to see women who are obviously intelligent and unique thinking they need to be "put in place." Admitting mistakes or trying to see something from someone else's point of view isn't just something women need to do. Humility, tolerance, and compromise are men's jobs, too.

IMHO.

I'll shut up now.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

MK, does the US allow (born outside US) passport applicants to suppress the birthplace from the bio-info?

To my knowledge, no. However, a person may sometimes be permitted to substitute the name of the city for the country. For instance, many dual Israeli-Americans born in Jersualem have U.S. passports stating "Jerusalem" as their place of birth, which is more ambiguous than stating "Israel." I believe Canada does the same thing, but in that case I think it's due to the undetermined political status of Jerusalem. (Someone with knowledge of Canadian procedure please correct me if I am wrong here.)

-MK

Actually, Canada allows complete suppression of birthplace (you forgot my being a dual Canuck-Yank maybe?).

[UmmSqueakster 54]

This really is a good post. I want to comment about Jordan. My first trip to Jordan, I was so upset, I cried. Now I am 5'3, blonde hair, blue eyes and i couldn't go anywhere in the summer in Jordan without people staring at me, both men and women.

When my family went to Egypt to meet my fiance's family, they didn't have any experiences like that. Maybe egyptians in Cairo are more used to tourists than Jordanians? Actually, the one who had it worst was my brother. He was 16 at the time and is very tall, 6 foot, and light blonde. When we were in my husband's hometown, he had a gaggle of giggling girls follow him around for an hour. My sister did buy a scarf to cover her hair there, but the only attention she got was a few stares, nothing rude that I saw.

I never had to deal with any of that, since with hijab, I look Egyptian, or so my husband is fond of telling me Plus, I enjoyed "going native" so to speak, and sported abayas.

Now my husband would love it to death! if I wore the hijab. But he doesn't force it. He really likes the Hijab and also it's a cultural and Islamic way of them having authority over you, really it is. I mean, this doesn't show the body, etc. And they like it!

I hate to get in hijab wars, and normally try to avoid them like the plague, but let me just make one small comment. Hijab is what you make of it. If you let your husband use it against you, then it's that. But, for myself and for many other muslims both here in the US and around the world (like many of the women I had the pleasure of meeting in Egypt), it has completely different connotations. We embrace the hijab as an integral part of our faith and a sign of obediance to God. I wore hijab before I ever met my husband.

I enjoyed this article from the Christian Science Monitor last week, as it highlights the growing trend of american muslims to take on hijab.

Edited April 21, 2006 by rahma

[jordanianprincess 0]

I don't think I'm taking it out of context, really.

I know I'm not one of the ME/NA ladies, but I've been reading this thread with a ton of interest--and I mean that sincerely. I was actually talking about it with Ewen at dinner last night. I think some of the posts here have been fascinating, funny, wise, and great examples of how cultures mix (or don't, in some cases).

But I hate to see women who are obviously intelligent and unique thinking they need to be "put in place." Admitting mistakes or trying to see something from someone else's point of view isn't just something women need to do. Humility, tolerance, and compromise are men's jobs, too.

IMHO.

I'll shut up now.

Agreed, but I don't think thats what she meant by it

[Together4ever 1]

This really is a good post. I want to comment about Jordan. My first trip to Jordan, I was so upset, I cried. Now I am 5'3, blonde hair, blue eyes and i couldn't go anywhere in the summer in Jordan without people staring at me, both men and women. During the first visit, a man with his saudi wife almost crashed coz he had to lean over to look at who that blonde woman was? It didn't bother my husband. He held on me, proud to have me as his wife. He said, don't worry about the women, they are just jealous coz your skin and hair are so nice and your eyes are blue. Even the bus ride was miserable. I just couldn't walk comfortably anywhere, whistles, honking horns, women looking as if they were talking nasty about me. But I also received many, many warm welcomes. It's a thing, that if you look western, etc., hey, face it, they think they are taking their men, and we are! So I finally got a grip of myself at the end of the trip. What could I do. It was like that my second trip and it was winter there. Even flying out on royal jordan, the stares, but eventually some walked up to me and wished me a safe trip and a good journey in Jordan. I still got the same stares. And one time, I got out of the car, coz myhusband had a hard time parking and needed to go to the ATM. As soon as I stepped out and started walking by myself, oh my God! The taxi's, like 5 of them immediately pulled up and honking like crazy and then other cars, was so wild and actually uncomfortable. Anyway, this time i wouldn't let it bother me, i said so be it!

Now my husband would love it to death! if I wore the hijab. But he doesn't force it. He really likes the Hijab and also it's a cultural and Islamic way of them having authority over you, really it is. I mean, this doesn't show the body, etc. And they like it! My husband is pretty cool, and times he does get pushy but not in a negative way, but I can understand that American woman are more liberal and sometimes, we do need to be put into our place. Really, sometimes it's a respect thing they have. We are two different cultures, regardless if we are American Arab or just plain ole Americans. We are raised in a country that is liberal, freedom of speech and can wear what we want most of the time. Over there, it's not that way. And so that's what they know, and we know what we know and really, I believe the first year of any relationship, whether it be marriage or engagement, the first year is the hardest, this is where you really touch bases. The second year is the blending. Have no clue about the third yet, haven't gotten that far. LOL

Also the distance, it's a nightmare, it even leaves me occasionally insecure and I'm not at all like that. YOu can't worry about the control thing, you have to work with them on what feels comfortable, what makes you feel like you and them feel like themselves. YOu can't be who you are not, it never works. I also was married before and to a very very very controling man. So to me, it's about blending, understanding and blending. Knowing who you are to him and who he is you to you. Letting him know who you are to him, etc. It's making the bed comfortable to lie in.

Have to run now, I could go on. And i probably repeated myself, but so what, that's me.

Have a great day

Andrea

Andrea,

I personally think this was beautifully put. Communication and trust seem to play a really big role in "making that bed comfy". Our lovely husbands/fiances are accustomed to things being much different then most of us are. If the couple can talk openly about expectations and feelings (god, I sound like Dr. Phil) trust builds. Where there is trust, relaxation settles in and insecurities start to dissolve away. Yep, it takes time, but love always finds a way.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

MK, does the US allow (born outside US) passport applicants to suppress the birthplace from the bio-info?

To my knowledge, no. However, a person may sometimes be permitted to substitute the name of the city for the country. For instance, many dual Israeli-Americans born in Jersualem have U.S. passports stating "Jerusalem" as their place of birth, which is more ambiguous than stating "Israel." I believe Canada does the same thing, but in that case I think it's due to the undetermined political status of Jerusalem. (Someone with knowledge of Canadian procedure please correct me if I am wrong here.)

-MK

Actually, Canada allows complete suppression of birthplace (you forgot my being a dual Canuck-Yank maybe?).

I am sorry, I wasn't clear. I remember reading that in the case of Canada, many Jerusalem-born dual Israeli-Canadians apparently WANTED their passports to indicate "Israel" as place of birth, but the Canadian government wouldn't allow it, as it does not officially recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel. (Canada still considers the status as "undetermined.") I will try to find the article again.

Heehee I didn't forget that you hold a Canadian passport...

-MK

Edited April 21, 2006 by wife_of_mahmoud

[Veiled Princess 1]

Now my husband would love it to death! if I wore the hijab. But he doesn't force it. He really likes the Hijab and also it's a cultural and Islamic way of them having authority over you, really it is.

NO it's not! It has nothing to do with men at all. It is a religious act nothing more nothing less. And a darn good one too in my opinion. Just look at the differences of how women here are treated there... those of us who wear it there don't get nearly the amount of problems as those of you who choose not to. I was there and everyone I met was perfectly respectful and nice to me. Granted, they thought I was Arab but even after my husband explained that I did not understand Arabic fluently and told them I was American they were still VERY nice to me. Men did not even talk to me alhamdulilah! If they needed something from me they would address my husband. One man out of the whole time I was there tried to shake my hand but Yousuf was quick to smack it away LOL. And NO it was not because he was trying to control me, it was because he knew that I would not shake hands with a man and he was protecting me. No one stared at me in bad ways. No one dared look at me in a lustful manner (1. because my husband is a a very big strong man, I'm sure) but also because I felt as if they respected me. Western women at the pyramids who were dressed like they didn't know where they were, were treated badly but not me.. not once. I'm not saying it's excusable for them to treat anyone that way, I'm just making the point that covering is not a bad thing. Even in the western countries... those women who dress more modestly are taken more seriously than those who expose 90% of their bodies.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Now my husband would love it to death! if I wore the hijab. But he doesn't force it. He really likes the Hijab and also it's a cultural and Islamic way of them having authority over you, really it is.

NO it's not! It has nothing to do with men at all. It is a religious act nothing more nothing less. And a darn good one too in my opinion. Just look at the differences of how women here are treated there... those of us who wear it there don't get nearly the amount of problems as those of you who choose not to. I was there and everyone I met was perfectly respectful and nice to me. Granted, they thought I was Arab but even after my husband explained that I did not understand Arabic fluently and told them I was American they were still VERY nice to me. Men did not even talk to me alhamdulilah! If they needed something from me they would address my husband. One man out of the whole time I was there tried to shake my hand but Yousuf was quick to smack it away LOL. And NO it was not because he was trying to control me, it was because he knew that I would not shake hands with a man and he was protecting me. No one stared at me in bad ways. No one dared look at me in a lustful manner (1. because my husband is a a very big strong man, I'm sure) but also because I felt as if they respected me. Western women at the pyramids who were dressed like they didn't know where they were, were treated badly but not me.. not once. I'm not saying it's excusable for them to treat anyone that way, I'm just making the point that covering is not a bad thing. Even in the western countries... those women who dress more modestly are taken more seriously than those who expose 90% of their bodies.

I think there's an element of truth in this, no matter what culture you're in. People do make judgements about women according to their dress, even in America -- this is just a fact. And of course the Middle East is very conservative, and people there will judge according to their own standards, which are much more strict than in the U.S.

But I have to say that I've travelled all over the West Bank and parts of Jordan but never wore hijab, only covering my hair for special occasions. (It's long, so I usually tie it back to be less distracting to those unused to seeing loose hair.) My normal style of dress is conservative, but recognizably Western. I have done quite of bit of travelling alone, and never experienced any incidents with men making untoward or rude comments or advances; in fact, all addressed me with the utmost respect and courtesy, with the most gentlemanly of manners. I got some curious stares once in a while, especially out in the villages, but nothing rude or intimidating -- just innocent curiosity about who was this ajnabiyya they hadn't seen before. People were quite accepting of me, so kind and so welcoming. And the women were just as nice to me as the men.

I was also often asked if I am Arab -- by Israeli soldiers, and by Palestinians -- children in the bus, people on the street. (I have blue eyes and medium brown hair, but somewhat of an olive complexion, and in the past I've been asked if I'm all sorts of ethnicities, from Eastern European to Lebanese.) Of course all Arabs aren't black-haired and brown-eyed with darker skin, and the West Bank has a considerable number of Palestinian Christians who don't wear hijab, so the question was not unreasonable.

LOL @ the shaking hands thing. My husband's father is very religious -- he is sheikh in his village -- and would never touch any unrelated female. The first time we met, he would not shake my hand, but offered his covered arm instead. But after our marriage, he not only felt comfortable to shake my hand, but also gave me a big hug !

-MK

[jordanianprincess 0]

Now my husband would love it to death! if I wore the hijab. But he doesn't force it. He really likes the Hijab and also it's a cultural and Islamic way of them having authority over you, really it is.

NO it's not! It has nothing to do with men at all. It is a religious act nothing more nothing less. And a darn good one too in my opinion. Just look at the differences of how women here are treated there... those of us who wear it there don't get nearly the amount of problems as those of you who choose not to. I was there and everyone I met was perfectly respectful and nice to me. Granted, they thought I was Arab but even after my husband explained that I did not understand Arabic fluently and told them I was American they were still VERY nice to me. Men did not even talk to me alhamdulilah! If they needed something from me they would address my husband. One man out of the whole time I was there tried to shake my hand but Yousuf was quick to smack it away LOL. And NO it was not because he was trying to control me, it was because he knew that I would not shake hands with a man and he was protecting me. No one stared at me in bad ways. No one dared look at me in a lustful manner (1. because my husband is a a very big strong man, I'm sure) but also because I felt as if they respected me. Western women at the pyramids who were dressed like they didn't know where they were, were treated badly but not me.. not once. I'm not saying it's excusable for them to treat anyone that way, I'm just making the point that covering is not a bad thing. Even in the western countries... those women who dress more modestly are taken more seriously than those who expose 90% of their bodies.

Sorry but I need to object here Leila, that is because peaple can be ignorant. I agree that it's worn for religious reasons, but that does not mean that people should be treated badly becuase they don't share those beliefs. I know you are not saying it's a bad thing, but there are not very many women that I know that expose 90% of their bodies. Personally I don' think there is enough tolerance in the ME on this subject and I think people there need to be more open-minded.

If you choose to cover-up, you have my utmost respect. If you are forced (which many are) that is wrong. I don't cover up, but I'm not hangin out of my clothes either and I hve never gotten anything but respect. In the Middle East, it depends on the country you go to, some are more liberal than others but all should be treated with respect.

When my family went to Egypt to meet my fiance's family, they didn't have any experiences like that. Maybe egyptians in Cairo are more used to tourists than Jordanians?

If you are in Jordan and are visiting the tourist spots, this is not an issue. Aqaba, parts of Amman, Dead Sea, etc. Andrea's husband and my fiance both live in Zarka which is a small town in Jordan, there is nothing but locals there and when most of us visit we spend most of our time around the locals. There is alot more tolerence in the areas where the tourists are.

I was in Jordan during Ramadan, we could not go anywhere to eat during the day. Everything was closed. The only places that were open were in the tourist areas. I went to Jarash during Ramadan and we ate a meal there during the day. You can't do that in Amman. I disagree with this, but thats a completly differnt topic.

[honeyblonde 0]

Northern Morocco, Taza specifically, is a very modern city. Most of the young girls there don't wear hijab, they dress like girls here. I don't wear hijab, but I do dress pretty modestly, because I am conscious of my weight. The only people who stared at me were little girls, about 8 to 12, who would shyly ask me if I was French. Abdel said I looked more French than American so he just made a game of it. When they asked me what my name was in French, which I don't speak, he would answer for me in French, like he was me, and they would giggle. Some even asked us to take their pictures so we did.

I never went out without Abdel so I didn't really notice if men looked at me - my eyes were only on Abdel.

When I'm engaged or married, really the only man I notice is my man. If I do happen to glance at another man I'll usually compare him to Abdel and think something like, "oh, he has shoulders like Abdel. I can't wait to get home to Abdel" I know that sounds corny, but I've dated enough men to really appreciate the great guy I have.

Since Abdel is only 136 pounds (which I happen to find incredibly sexy), I certainly would not want to put him in a situation where he thought he had to defend me (he may be small but he's not a coward and would protect me in a heartbeat!) I think a lot of how a man reacts to a woman depends on that woman. If you just ignore them, avoid eye contact, and carry yourself with an air of confidence, they will eventually get the hint.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Now my husband would love it to death! if I wore the hijab. But he doesn't force it. He really likes the Hijab and also it's a cultural and Islamic way of them having authority over you, really it is.

NO it's not! It has nothing to do with men at all. It is a religious act nothing more nothing less. And a darn good one too in my opinion. Just look at the differences of how women here are treated there... those of us who wear it there don't get nearly the amount of problems as those of you who choose not to. I was there and everyone I met was perfectly respectful and nice to me. Granted, they thought I was Arab but even after my husband explained that I did not understand Arabic fluently and told them I was American they were still VERY nice to me. Men did not even talk to me alhamdulilah! If they needed something from me they would address my husband. One man out of the whole time I was there tried to shake my hand but Yousuf was quick to smack it away LOL. And NO it was not because he was trying to control me, it was because he knew that I would not shake hands with a man and he was protecting me. No one stared at me in bad ways. No one dared look at me in a lustful manner (1. because my husband is a a very big strong man, I'm sure) but also because I felt as if they respected me. Western women at the pyramids who were dressed like they didn't know where they were, were treated badly but not me.. not once. I'm not saying it's excusable for them to treat anyone that way, I'm just making the point that covering is not a bad thing. Even in the western countries... those women who dress more modestly are taken more seriously than those who expose 90% of their bodies.

Sorry but I need to object here Leila, that is because peaple can be ignorant. I agree that it's worn for religious reasons, but that does not mean that people should be treated badly becuase they don't share those beliefs. I know you are not saying it's a bad thing, but there are not very many women that I know that expose 90% of their bodies. Personally I don' think there is enough tolerance in the ME on this subject and I think people there need to be more open-minded.

If you choose to cover-up, you have my utmost respect. If you are forced (which many are) that is wrong. I don't cover up, but I'm not hangin out of my clothes either and I hve never gotten anything but respect. In the Middle East, it depends on the country you go to, some are more liberal than others but all should be treated with respect.

Object to what JP? This is not a court of law

Had you read my post to the end you would have noticed that I said it's NOT excusable