Mosocw Medical Exam Controversy

[mox 298]

Nav, no offense, but you did pose the question in a pretty "in your face" manner Nav. Which is fine, but you should be willing to expect the same back. *shrug* It's all good.

The Russian word for "International" is "Международная," hence the MoM acronym. (Not showing off, my Russian is horrid. I pulled it from a link back when I had this exact same question myself.)

[NavarreMan 10]

Nav, no offense, but you did pose the question in a pretty "in your face" manner Nav. Which is fine, but you should be willing to expect the same back. *shrug* It's all good.

The Russian word for "International" is "МеждународнаÑ," hence the MoM acronym. (Not showing off, my Russian is horrid. I pulled it from a link back when I had this exact same question myself.)

Mox,

I have very carefully re-read my post where I asked my 2 questions. Perhaps I have tunnel vision being the author of the post but I really do not see anything "in your face" about it. When it comes to getting in someone's face, the difference can be seen between my first post and my second.

I'll break it down the way I intended it to read:

1. FACT - US Dept of State says...

2. QUESTION - Is one of these clinics the "MOM" and if so which one?

3. PLEADING - Please answer without going of topic.

4. QUESTION - MOM = Bad, AOM = Good, is this correct?

I can certainly receive what I dish out but I did not feel my post in anyway was rude to the point to elicit the response dealt out by novotul. Understandably novotul has issues with the MOM clinic and the experience offered is absolutely the sort of things we need to hear about so that we may make informed decisions on such matters. But the thread had gone from "Any advice on a good clinic?" to "Russian men suck and so does the USA". I was just looking for a clear-cut answer to the OP's question. I did not even voice my opinion on the issue of who sucks more. To me it doesn't matter. What is important to me is that Tanya is treated with respect and courtesy.

So if I stepped on someone's toes with my first post I assure you it was not my intention.

p.s. Thanks for the explanation of the MOM. If it were explained this way in the first place I would not be typing this now. (except for the thanks part)

Edited December 13, 2007 by NavarreMan

[mox 298]

p.s. Thanks for the explanation of the MOM. If it were explained this way in the first place I would not be typing this now. (except for the thanks part)

No worries, and you're welcome.

When someone pops into a thread--especially if they're coming in late--criticism of how the conversation has been going won't generally be well received. Doesn't matter what the intentions are, that's just sort of how teh interwebs werk. And in this case, even though the conversation took a turn, people were still answering the OP's question as asides, so I think everyone was okay with how it was going. I could be wrong.

In any case, AO Meditsina seems to be the crowd favorite, and it's where we'll be scheduling our medical. But mostly I want to know why you hate America. (j/k!)

Cheers.

[NavarreMan 10]

Cause I live here!!!

I would have moved to Russia if I could crack the job market in Taganrog.

Thanks for the advice. Believe it or not, yours is always well received. Otherwise I would not have used up an hour carefully writing a response (the last one, not this one).

Cheers!

[slim 1,525]

I haven't heard of the ladies being treated with anything other than respect and courtesy at all the clinics recently. (Within the last two years or so.) The "controversy" that was going on at MoM and AO, or anywhere else in Russia for that matter, seems to have been cleared up by now.

I heard it was because of the controversial behavior being posted on so many of the Russian fiancee blogs that it ended up being investigated by the embassy and summarily taken care of. Don't know if that's true or not, just remember hearing something like that early last year. Could've been the year before, I don't know. They're all starting to mesh together now as the "pre-arrival" time and the "post-arrival" time. Or, the "K-1" and "AOS" times. Anyway, (since my wife might check this) it's all so much better since we've been together.

She went through the Vladivostok clinic and said it was normalna. If you're really worried about your woman being mistreated, maybe you can fly her out to Vlad for a day or two to see the sights and get checked out. Medically, of course. Not "checked out" while she's getting checked out. Anyway, you know what I mean.

[mendeleev 68]

Slim may be right.

My wife's "rape by instrumentation" (I used to live in Oklahoma and what she is experienced is criminalized in that state under the rubric "rape by instrumentation") occurred in Sept '05 at MOM when she was going for her K1. Given that this sort of abuse, and others, was being reported widely on other boards then, it is conceivable that the embassy picked it up and made MOM behave. Before today, I hadn't heard anything like what Slim claims, though -- and from what I hear sporadic cases of abuse -- that do not rise to the level of assault that my wife experienced -- may still occur there.

At her K3 interview in Sept 07, AOM did force my wife to take unnecessary vaccinations that did have consequences sufficiently severe that we probably should report them to CDC. I complained to the embassy and, from what I glean in a recent post on this board, AOMedisina is not requiring vaccinations for K1/K3 individuals over the age of 35. If accurate, the AOM is still out on the range, since CDC guidelines nowhere specify 35 years old as a caution limit for any vaccination.

If we had to do it again, we'd use AOM, in spite of their transgression. They were clean, pretty efficient -- just what you might expect for a Swiss-owned hospital.

Edited December 14, 2007 by novotul

[Satellite 1]

My wife's "rape by instrumentation" (I used to live in Oklahoma and what she is experienced is criminalized in that state under the rubric "rape by instrumentation") occurred in Sept '05 at MOM when she was going for her K1.

I went ahead and looked this one up.

http://oklegal.onenet.net/oklegal-cgi/ifet...+852614634632+F

However, I am curious, didn't your wife consent to being at the clinic and going to the medical exam?

Also none of the elements of

§1111:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/Deli...sp?CiteID=69602

seem to be met.

I don't think this statute was intended to be used to accuse every physician performing a pelvic exam of rape. Instead, I gather it was written to catch those acts of rape which occurred without using body parts in the traditional settings, per section 1111.

You might have a better case that a pelvic exam is not necessary for this kind of medical exam, but that typically does not amount to a crime.

Although there have been cases of physicians committing rape during these gynecological exams, it usually involves very blatant acts and requires the multiple victims to prove.

So in conclusion if this occurred in the states, you would still have a very hard case to prove.

[Chris Parker 11]

My wife's "rape by instrumentation" (I used to live in Oklahoma and what she is experienced is criminalized in that state under the rubric "rape by instrumentation") occurred in Sept '05 at MOM when she was going for her K1.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't Moscow considered to be outside the jurisdiction of this law? Also, as someone previously mentioned, isn't the examination considered entirely voluntary and she could leave at any time?

Also, I'm a bit surprised that no one has anything to say about Flatilov?

[visaveteran1 33]

Well, this thread had some interesting twists and turns...but i think I got the info I wanted.

Based on what I've read from your replies, I will send my wife only to AOS. Maybe the MOM is now ok but I'm not going to risk it. The only advantage to MOM as I have heard is it's one day service and with AOS is next morning. Not enough to risk my wife getting harassed or worse.

Concerning my personal views of Russian men...I find them charming, funny and some have helped me out. They also carry a kind of masculinity that is different then I see stateside for the most part and they wear it well. I do think Russia is a male dominated culture so i think men in Russia or more content than the women. I think communism hurt men in Russia....the STATE had the balls, not the men. The state was the provider and protector. If the men have issues, it's not their fault in my judgment. But I still don't have to like their behavior towards women.

[slim 1,525]

Concerning my personal views of Russian men...I find them charming, funny and some have helped me out. They also carry a kind of masculinity that is different then I see stateside for the most part and they wear it well.

Yeah, there's something about wearing a tank top and carrying a purse.... and pulling it off. It takes a special kind of masculinity to do that without looking totally fabulous.

As for the difference in masculinity between men there and men here, I believe that stems from the difference in women there and women here. Women in Russia still play the traditional role (and are happy to do so) and expect their men to be "the man." Most women here in the States don't need a "man." They'd rather have a pretty, hair gel-sporting, accomplice that compliments their look and elevates their status over their girlfriends; more of an accessory, like a fashionable handbag or big sunglasses rather than someone who will hop out of the car and change the tire when they're broken down. The "accessories" will just call AAA.

Most "men" in Russia or the U.S. would change their own tire before they'd make their wife wait in the car for over an hour for another "man" to come change it for them.

(Not knocking AAA or having someone change your tire for you. That's awesome. All I'm saying is there is a direct relation between the amount of gel you wear in your hair and the amount of time you're willing to wait on another man to come do a job for you that you're perfectly capable of doing yourself. In Russia, the number of men willing to change their own tire seems to be higher than the number of men here. And the ratio is widening, not closing.)

[visaveteran1 33]

Concerning my personal views of Russian men...I find them charming, funny and some have helped me out. They also carry a kind of masculinity that is different then I see stateside for the most part and they wear it well.

Yeah, there's something about wearing a tank top and carrying a purse.... and pulling it off. It takes a special kind of masculinity to do that without looking totally fabulous.

As for the difference in masculinity between men there and men here, I believe that stems from the difference in women there and women here. Women in Russia still play the traditional role (and are happy to do so) and expect their men to be "the man." Most women here in the States don't need a "man." They'd rather have a pretty, hair gel-sporting, accomplice that compliments their look and elevates their status over their girlfriends; more of an accessory, like a fashionable handbag or big sunglasses rather than someone who will hop out of the car and change the tire when they're broken down. The "accessories" will just call AAA.

Most "men" in Russia or the U.S. would change their own tire before they'd make their wife wait in the car for over an hour for another "man" to come change it for them.

(Not knocking AAA or having someone change your tire for you. That's awesome. All I'm saying is there is a direct relation between the amount of gel you wear in your hair and the amount of time you're willing to wait on another man to come do a job for you that you're perfectly capable of doing yourself. In Russia, the number of men willing to change their own tire seems to be higher than the number of men here. And the ratio is widening, not closing.)

Women in the USA are the "engine" driving the Russian or Foreign Bride phenomena. If you look at dating sites in the US, the women over 40 want younger men, not older. They want to feel younger so they hang out with younger guys to create an illusion of their own youth. And they want a man with an "athletic" body and be a CEO. In Russia, many women want an older man. And the personal appearance of the men is a secondary issue, not a primary one. There are not many places in the world where women respect the older man and what he can bring to a relationship...wisdom, experience, stability, and perhaps a bit of economic comfort.

As to the accessory male, I think some call this guys "soft males" or "nice boys." Women date them but secretly desire the bad boy or the guy who can actually protect them if things go bad in the dark alley. American women have created a paradox for themselves...and the American culture is changing.

[mox 298]

I agree that the abandonment of the traditional female role is to a significant extent driving some men towards foreign brides, but it's still a pretty niche activity, mostly due to the social stigma. I think that statistically it can't really be called a trend. Nor do I think it will ever gain the momentum to be a trend. In Russia, women are becoming more and more like Western women, and care less and less about the traditional roles their mothers filled. I suspect the next generation of Russian women will be much closer to American women in terms of the role they expect to take in a marriage. So...get em now while you can, I guess.

[visaveteran1 33]

I agree that the abandonment of the traditional female role is to a significant extent driving some men towards foreign brides, but it's still a pretty niche activity, mostly due to the social stigma. I think that statistically it can't really be called a trend. Nor do I think it will ever gain the momentum to be a trend. In Russia, women are becoming more and more like Western women, and care less and less about the traditional roles their mothers filled. I suspect the next generation of Russian women will be much closer to American women in terms of the role they expect to take in a marriage. So...get em now while you can, I guess.

Your point about yonger Russian women changing is true in my judgment. The "New Russia" women. And i think looking beyond the comfort of Moscow and St. Pete to more remote or smaller cities will increase the chances to find an old-school " Russian village girl" ...the ones who still hold traditional values and are willing to work hard and make the extra effort to make her man happy. The ones who have known hardships and struggle, and will appreciate what the western world might offer them.

[mox 298]

The ones who have known hardships and struggle, and will appreciate what the western world might offer them.

I dunno about that. I'm all for the traditional woman; it's one of my SO's most endearing qualities to me. But I'm certainly not looking for a woman who is looking to escape her life, hardships or otherwise. I don't need or want that baggage. I've seen how "rescue syndrome" relationships end, and it's not pretty.

My SO has made it pretty clear that she's not abandoning Russia. She fully expects that we'll be heading back from time to time, and I fully expect to deliver on that promise. She is giving up a lot to come to me, and not because of what a western world might offer her, but because she wants to be with me. I have no doubt in my mind that she'd go back to Russia if I gave her cause, even if she had permanent residency by then. I'm perfectly fine with that, because it means she's starting a new life to be with me, not because of what she can gain from being in the West.

[Buck and Natalia 0]

Here is a link visited by hundreds of Russian women that have already been through the medical exam process. I think they talk about this issue quite extensively. It might be worth checking out by your fiancees........

http://www.russian-fiancee.com/rus/forum/

Actually, I rather pity any medical clinic or medical examiners that try to do something unsavory to Natalia or treat her disrespectfully. The Battle of Stalingrad would look like an afternoon tea party after she was finished with them.

Buck