Tom Tancredo Hired Illegal Laborers to Renovate His McMansion

[pedroh 21]

Coming from working under several unions, I used to be all for protecting American jobs. I have since surrendered to the reality that we are immersed in a global market that is based on the laissez-faire principles of economics. The so-called 'conservative', laissez-faire philosophy on economics has won out. We passed NAFTA, we have the WTO. If you think that these policies which your ilk fought hard to have implemented were designed to protect American jobs, I've got a rock to sell you. This is what you (anti-unionists) wanted.

What's your solution? Or more importantly, what kind of economic philosophy do you espouse to?

So, what you would tell those 70 men is "Too bad, so sad. Bend over like I have."

What you have posted - roll over, give up - is not a solution, Steven. And you may feel high and mighty speaking of those who supported NAFTA, WTO and were anti-union, as "my ilk", as if you know me, but, FYI, you don't know me. I worked against both NAFTA and the WTO, and more. And I am not anti-union. You, however, become incredibly presumptuous, arrogant, and judgmental when losing an argument.

Apparently being a conservative and being anti-illegal alien gives you the impression that you can associate me with a lot of your own demons, but that's not how it works. Because I was an adult when many of the policies in place now were offered, I had the opportunity to study them and support or oppose them. I didn't just accept them. And because I was paying attention, I have seen the changes and, ironically, the laissez-faire attitude that young liberals have embraced as a means of escaping their responsibilities to their heritage.

I'm not going to fall back on my heels and let the rape proceed, as you have already done. You can drink as much of that kool-aid as you want, but do not presume that you can tell me that because you are a quitter, everyone who isn't has something wrong with them.

I don't need to tell you about my economic positions. You can make them up yourself, as you have done so much about me.

dude, having a different opinion than yours and 'many americans' does not mean they are incorrect.. why do you like to belittle 'wrong opinions'... this debate is interesting IMO, but why do you have to start with your condescending attitudes towards people having other opinions.. besides, I think it's enough of the 'illegal lover' tag.. you're over doing it..

oh, and about those low income americans.. my solution is, they should start being more price competitive over the 'mexicans'...

construction workers won't work for 5 bucks an hour lol.. even illegal workers make good money in construction.. but I think many prior years of economic isolation in America, made prices go way high, and now they can't compete with the rest of the world

[Jasman0717 9]

Burn it down

[Sofiyya 1,687]

dude, having a different opinion than yours and 'many americans' does not mean they are incorrect.. why do you like to belittle 'wrong opinions'... this debate is interesting IMO, but why do you have to start with your condescending attitudes towards people having other opinions.. besides, I think it's enough of the 'illegal lover' tag.. you're over doing it..

oh, and about those low income americans.. my solution is, they should start being more price competitive over the 'mexicans'...

construction workers won't work for 5 bucks an hour lol.. even illegal workers make good money in construction.. but I think many prior years of economic isolation in America, made prices go way high, and now they can't compete with the rest of the world

I'm not a dude.

"Illegal lover" is an apt description for those who make excuses and accomodations for those who do not believe that the law applies to them. And, if it annoys you, that makes it even better.

When people cannot give their opinions substantive and non-contradictory support, any opposition that exposes that flaw will appear to be condescending and harsh. It would be beneficial to those who believe they are right to prepare for challenges by not believing that the world thinks as they do. Get out more.

May I also remind you, pedroh, that you came before loaded with insults. I advised you to listen to yourself. I did not insult you. Any comebacks that I offered were richly deserved.

So, your advice to low-income Americans is to learn to live on less? Construction wages have dropped over the last 20 years. There is no need to compete with the rest of the world re wages in construction since it is not an export. It is the illegal imports - undocumented workers - that are driving wages down in that industry. Quality also suffers.

I asked how liberals explain their support for illegals in the face of the fact that they are driving down wages and taking opportunities away from low income, minority Americans, once a liberal cause.

No answer.

I asked if browns were favored over blacks these days.

No answer.

I asked for personal experiences over a period of time, 1976 - 1984, with illegal immigration and its economic impact (this issue has been a hot button on and off for decades, in fact).

No answer.

I asked how championing the cause of illegal aliens benefits the economically disadvantaged among us. I guess the answer I got was that they should learn to live on less.

I asked how liberal illegal lovers could reconcile their bleeding hearts with the fact that their support of illegal workers provides a boon to corrupt employers who exploit the most vulnerable among them and reap higher profits while providing underpar service and products.

I was told to give up because they have already won.

And those were just a few of the nuggets I dug up from this exchange.

Yes, this has been an educational experience. Thank you very much!

Edited December 2, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I asked you how supporting illegals benefits minorities and low-income Americans. Can you tell me?

It doesn't. It hurts them. Everyone knows that. Elitist types just don't seem to care much about the American poor and lawfully resident minorities but rather cater to those aliens that openly pizz on our laws and the profiteers of this ever growing illegal crowd.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Mr. Big Dog

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

A productive and civil discussion as always, I see.

Nothing productive to add as always, I see.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Mr. Big Dog

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I asked you how supporting illegals benefits minorities and low-income Americans. Can you tell me?

It doesn't. It hurts them. Everyone knows that. Elitist types just don't seem to care much about the American poor and lawfully resident minorities but rather cater to those aliens that openly pizz on our laws and the profiteers of this ever growing illegal crowd.

Who among us is an elitist? I think pragmatist is the word you're searching for. I'm with you on wanting a sustainable economy - one that creates jobs, where we don't have to worry that some guy in a third world country is going to replace you because he can do the same job for a fraction of the cost. I just happen to think illegal immigration is only one small fraction of the whole equation. Gone are the production, blue collar, middle class jobs and in replacement we have the highest job growth in the service industry (minimum wage) jobs...and it wasn't the influx of illegals into this country that sparked that shift. In fact, they came in because there was this huge swell of low paying jobs. In the meantime, blue coller Americans are quickly disappearing. Unions have been weakened by large corporations and their lobbying power. The WTO and NAFTA were engineered specifically by corporations with their benefit in mind, not the American worker...and yet we're all up in arms over the negative impact illegals have on American jobs.

The reality is that this country has fully embraced a global free market. We export more raw materials to China than any other country, meanwhile China is our biggest importer of manufactured goods. So far, the beneficiaries of this free market have been the top feeders...the corporations. So, we're not going to solve our immigration problems until we solve the larger issues - our trade policies, our energy policy, our foreign policy. My argument has consistently been that illegal immigration is a consequence of a bigger problem facing this country...and until you call that spade a spade, and focus your outrage where it should be appropriately directed, our illegal immigration problem will never be solved.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[Heracles 417]

They aslo have no concept of the fact that people don't just come here to work, they come here to live, and by living here, change the fabric of this nation.

Of course the complexion of a nation changes, it changes with every birth and death. So what? You think by stopping illegal immigration you're going to hang on to some 'idyll' of what you believe America should be? Good luck with that one. Personally, I rather like multicultural diversity.

Definition of Diversity:

1. the state or fact of being diverse; difference; unlikeness.

2. variety; multiformity.

3 a point of difference.

Definition of Multicultural:

1. of, pertaining to, or representing several different cultures or cultural elements: a multicultural society.

Maybe my interpretation of the above is different but I would think Multicultural and diversity refers to various cultures, races, ethnicities etc. Rather than 12,000,000+ coming from one single country; Entering at their leisure might I add. I mean seriously. The thought of allowing illegal aliens to enter a country as they see fit is laughable, by any standards. Can you tell me which of the best nations to live in we saw, in a recent post, have a anything-goes style policy towards illegal aliens. Quite the contrary actually....

PS The other thing that some need to accept from the same study is:

"Rich free-market countries dominate the top places, with Iceland, Norway, Australia, Canada and Ireland the first five"

Edited December 2, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Fandango 1,440]

Illegal workers were employed in the construction/conversion of Mr. Tancredo's mansion.

The question is how did that happen?

Did he know that they were illegal but didn't care?

Did he not know, but also didn't care?

Did he not know, having taken every reasonable precaution to avoid it happening?

I have no particular interest in the real truth to be honest, I simply find politicians a hapless lot who are more often than not caught with their pants down.

However, some people have a vested interest in his having lilly white hands on this issue. The fact that is if he was either foolish (knowing that there is a big problem with illegal immigrants in the construction industry) or he was decieptful.

The other scenario is that he was duped by some unscrupulous contractor who was 'out to get him' because of his stand on immigration. Quite honestly, this latter scenario is very hard to swallow.

Is it, really? I'm not saying that's what it was, but I do think that's just as viable a choice as any other...

Then again...

I have no particular interest in the real truth to be honest

So your bias is showing!

It's not my position to make illegals legal. May I remind you that that is YOUR position, so you explain it to me. You think you know so much better, as you have informed me before. Inform me of this.

What is your solution?

You must be kidding. You know it all, but ask me for a solution? You posted the article to take a cheap shot. You criticise. Now, put your money where your mouth is - and show more than feelings.

I have pointed out that low-income minority workers, a former liberal favorite, have been displaced by illegals. No comment about the diversion of feelings and compassion for the American underclass to the illegal underclass? I'm so curious as to how this happened.

BRAVO GEG!

Edited December 2, 2007 by LisaD

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I have never claimed that the "mere presence" of illegals in this country affects Americans negatively. I have always addressed the issue from the vantage points of illegal activity, what you have to do to enter, stay and work, and economically, that they take jobs from legals. Do not put words in my mouth.

You try to follow me. I asked you how supporting illegals benefits minorities and low-income Americans. Can you tell me?

Given your posts on this subject, here and in other threads - that really does take the cake.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Number 6

[Fandango 1,440]

There should be a smiley damnit!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There should be a smiley damnit!

There should.

[Fandango 1,440]

There should be a smiley damnit!

There should.

Oi, you edited. Now it looks like my comment is outta the blue!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't think its unreasonable to question whether what he paid for the work he was the equivalent market rate for that kind of job. Of course I have no idea whether he did or not - but is it really an invalid question?

[Fandango 1,440]

I don't think its unreasonable to question whether what he paid for the work he was the equivalent market rate for that kind of job. Of course I have no idea whether he did or not - but is it really an invalid question?

Are you directing this to me?

I think it's relevant...but not solely relevant. I think there are also other factors to consider...whether the contractor was personally known to him (did Tancredo think it was a personal favor? Was he getting a break by 'hey I'll do it for cheaper so that you refer me to your friends') and what financial state Tancredo thought the guy was in...like was he hurting for business and just was undercutting everyone else to get the job?

I am just as interested in finding out the truth as most. I'm not looking to protect anyone from scorn, if it's deserved. I hold steadfast to my anti-illegal beliefs, and would be quite disappointed in T if it's proven he had a reasonable understanding of the situation as it really was. However, whether or not he is outed as a hypocrite does not change my stance in the slightest. I understand it'll be chum for the libs for a while, but at the end of the day....he's one man, and while his vocal beliefs align with mine on this subject, he does not speak for me and many others if he's been caught diddlin on the side. If anything, it illustrates how illegals have the ability to not only destroy the free mkt, but they have dire economy consequences by being able to be super competitive in price ONLY BY removing the tax cost to any job. So the only people who get screwed are Uncle Sam, the manual US, or GC laborer, oh and the US population too.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't think its unreasonable to question whether what he paid for the work he was the equivalent market rate for that kind of job. Of course I have no idea whether he did or not - but is it really an invalid question?

Are you directing this to me?

I think it's relevant...but not solely relevant. I think there are also other factors to consider...whether the contractor was personally known to him (did Tancredo think it was a personal favor? Was he getting a break by 'hey I'll do it for cheaper so that you refer me to your friends') and what financial state Tancredo thought the guy was in...like was he hurting for business and just was undercutting everyone else to get the job?

I am just as interested in finding out the truth as most. I'm not looking to protect anyone from scorn, if it's deserved. I hold steadfast to my anti-illegal beliefs, and would be quite disappointed in T if it's proven he had a reasonable understanding of the situation as it really was. However, whether or not he is outed as a hypocrite does not change my stance in the slightest. I understand it'll be chum for the libs for a while, but at the end of the day....he's one man, and while his vocal beliefs align with mine on this subject, he does not speak for me and many others if he's been caught diddlin on the side. If anything, it illustrates how illegals have the ability to not only destroy the free mkt, but they have dire economy consequences by being able to be super competitive in price ONLY BY removing the tax cost to any job. So the only people who get screwed are Uncle Sam, the manual US, or GC laborer, oh and the US population too.

To be honest - beyond that one question I don't think that there is all that much meat on this story. The writer pulls no punches as to how he feels about Tancredo - describing him as an Anti-immigration zealot, and a draft dodger who's obsessed with war movies to the point that he renovated his house for apparently masturbatory purposes (kind of like Goldfinger obsessing over the quality of his "map-room"). Its a hit piece, to be sure - but this topic tends to be loaded with them. In the general scheme of things of course - I don't think it adds much to the general immigration debate. However, as a presidential candidate - he, like all the rest are held to a (perhaps unreasonably) high standard. If its ok to pick up on things that a person was quoted as saying 25 years ago - is this really all that different? Its all part of the game. A dirty game... but pretty much the same rules that are applied to everyone else... Best he can do is be totally open and honest about it - address the issue rather than side-step it, or try to sweep it under the carpet.

However - I think we should all be honest with ourselves here. I have read elsewhere on VJ that supporting environmentalism and global warming equates to "Support for Al Gore", just as it seems to be assumed that just because someone criticises a Republican or Democrat candidate that they must therefore support the other side.

There's no middle ground these days, and that's rather sad.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Number 6