Tom Tancredo Hired Illegal Laborers to Renovate His McMansion

[pedroh 21]

a lot of places will take SS card as an ID, even though shouldn't be used as one..

[Sofiyya 1,687]

a lot of places will take SS card as an ID, even though shouldn't be used as one..

He's right.

[pedroh 21]

a lot of places will take SS card as an ID, even though shouldn't be used as one..

He's right.

yea, go to any cell phone place, and hand them the SS#, they'll take it..

[Caladan 19]

The article seems to make a few leaps. How does it endanger homeland security, I wonder? It's an easy thing to throw around, but is the article writer seriously suggesting that anyone accepts an ITIN as identification and that terrorists would have been prevented but for the ITIN?

I don't know of anything that accepts the ITIN as identification. Heck, even the SSN isn't identification on its own, if we're splicing hairs. It's not photo ID. I can't use it on its own for much of anything besides taxes. As we know, advocating for a position isn't the same as that position being actually in the law. You certainly can't get a driver's license without proving you're here legally. So is this a real problem or a made-up shadowy one like a child's bedtime story?

And make up your mind -- is it impossible to get an ITIN without being here legally (therefore proving it's all obtained by fraud), or a ploy intended for people here illegally? You can't have it both ways.

Not true. There are about 9 states that issue driver's licenses to illegals. There was recently a controversy over issuing them to illegals in NY state. And the SSN is used for ID, I know coz I've used it. It's officially against fedral law to use it for anything other than taxes, but it's used for a myriad of things, not only taxes.

I'm not sure who has to make up their mind, but it's clear that nearly anything can be gotten illegally, and the lackadasical attitude of our government is no help to stop that.

You said that you couldn't get an ITIN unless you could prove you were here legally (false, as it turns out) and then followed that up with an article whose premise was, roughly, ITINs are wrong because they help illegals.

If they're already getting driver's licenses, then the ITINs aren't doing anything to add to it. (In all of those states, you need to show valid ID to get a license; the visa status is just irrelevant.) I just don't think that getting rid of ITINs would do anything except end in fewer taxes being paid. And I'd rather see the energy & money spent in modernizing Social Security so that it's realistic for an employer to be able to use it rather than the 'we have 90 days to get back to you' system in place now.

I'm curious. What were the circumstances in which you used your SSN alone as an ID?

I did not say that you had to prove that you are here legally to get an ITIN. Here's what I actually said:

You still have to have some legal basis to get an ITIN. I got one for my husband, so I know you don't just get one. If they are illegal, how do they get tax ID legally?

In all of those states you do not have to show valid ID to get a license. The license is known to be issued to UNDOCUMENTED people, that means they have no valid ID.

The article does not advocate eliminating ITINs, just that it should be used only as intended, and that the IRS needs to bei more responsible about who gets one and how they are used.

I have used SNN as an ID in several instances, none of which comes to mind, but as it is also not used as intended, for tax purposes only, it is also abused.

I looked up Hawaii. Same with Maryland. They have a whole list of documents that count as acceptable ID in order to obtain a driver's license. It's not simply just walk in from the beach, get a license. 'Undocumented' doesn't mean 'can't prove identity' in common use, it means 'can't prove legal presence or work authorization.' Now, maybe they should have higher standards, but it's just not true that they don't require any form of ID to get a license. Like I said, the difference is valid foreign passport vs. valid foreign passport with unexpired I-94. (If the passport is faked or stolen, that's a separate problem, and I'd note that requiring a little piece of paper to be in it doesn't actually prevent that in the states that require proof of legal presence.)

I also looked up the form for the ITIN and the regulations on it. It's a one page form that lists a series of reasons you might need one. None of those reasons say anything about needing a legal basis (or being a legal resident). Alien, non-resident or otherwise, needing to report income who is otherwise ineligible for a SSN. That's it. Include proof of identity, like a passport or USCIS document, etc.

a lot of places will take SS card as an ID, even though shouldn't be used as one..

He's right.

yea, go to any cell phone place, and hand them the SS#, they'll take it..

Mine wanted to see a photo ID and credit card history. I don't think they have my SSN.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The article seems to make a few leaps. How does it endanger homeland security, I wonder? It's an easy thing to throw around, but is the article writer seriously suggesting that anyone accepts an ITIN as identification and that terrorists would have been prevented but for the ITIN?

I don't know of anything that accepts the ITIN as identification. Heck, even the SSN isn't identification on its own, if we're splicing hairs. It's not photo ID. I can't use it on its own for much of anything besides taxes. As we know, advocating for a position isn't the same as that position being actually in the law. You certainly can't get a driver's license without proving you're here legally. So is this a real problem or a made-up shadowy one like a child's bedtime story?

And make up your mind -- is it impossible to get an ITIN without being here legally (therefore proving it's all obtained by fraud), or a ploy intended for people here illegally? You can't have it both ways.

Not true. There are about 9 states that issue driver's licenses to illegals. There was recently a controversy over issuing them to illegals in NY state. And the SSN is used for ID, I know coz I've used it. It's officially against fedral law to use it for anything other than taxes, but it's used for a myriad of things, not only taxes.

I'm not sure who has to make up their mind, but it's clear that nearly anything can be gotten illegally, and the lackadasical attitude of our government is no help to stop that.

You said that you couldn't get an ITIN unless you could prove you were here legally (false, as it turns out) and then followed that up with an article whose premise was, roughly, ITINs are wrong because they help illegals.

If they're already getting driver's licenses, then the ITINs aren't doing anything to add to it. (In all of those states, you need to show valid ID to get a license; the visa status is just irrelevant.) I just don't think that getting rid of ITINs would do anything except end in fewer taxes being paid. And I'd rather see the energy & money spent in modernizing Social Security so that it's realistic for an employer to be able to use it rather than the 'we have 90 days to get back to you' system in place now.

I'm curious. What were the circumstances in which you used your SSN alone as an ID?

I did not say that you had to prove that you are here legally to get an ITIN. Here's what I actually said:

You still have to have some legal basis to get an ITIN. I got one for my husband, so I know you don't just get one. If they are illegal, how do they get tax ID legally?

In all of those states you do not have to show valid ID to get a license. The license is known to be issued to UNDOCUMENTED people, that means they have no valid ID.

The article does not advocate eliminating ITINs, just that it should be used only as intended, and that the IRS needs to bei more responsible about who gets one and how they are used.

I have used SNN as an ID in several instances, none of which comes to mind, but as it is also not used as intended, for tax purposes only, it is also abused.

I looked up Hawaii. Same with Maryland. They have a whole list of documents that count as acceptable ID in order to obtain a driver's license. It's not simply just walk in from the beach, get a license. 'Undocumented' doesn't mean 'can't prove identity' in common use, it means 'can't prove legal presence or work authorization.' Now, maybe they should have higher standards, but it's just not true that they don't require any form of ID to get a license. Like I said, the difference is valid foreign passport vs. valid foreign passport with unexpired I-94. (If the passport is faked or stolen, that's a separate problem, and I'd note that requiring a little piece of paper to be in it doesn't actually prevent that in the states that require proof of legal presence.)

I also looked up the form for the ITIN and the regulations on it. It's a one page form that lists a series of reasons you might need one. None of those reasons say anything about needing a legal basis (or being a legal resident). Alien, non-resident or otherwise, needing to report income who is otherwise ineligible for a SSN. That's it. Include proof of identity, like a passport or USCIS document, etc.

What you're missing is that they are not proving identity or residency, merely showing papers.

The problem with the ITIN is that needing to pay taxes to the US government, which in and of itself implies a valid legal basis for having an ITIN. That the IRS is only interested in the person's money and not their legality when issuing these cards is a problem in and of itself.

[Fandango 1,439]

I have a headache!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The agenda of some posters here is to get us to drink the koolaid. I'm not one of them.

Stealth Amnesty For Illegals Already Underway

By Sam Francis

The good news is that there probably won't be any amnesty for illegal aliens in the near future—at least not one under that name and covering all illegals.

That's more or less the implication of what Secretary of State Colin Powell told the press last week after talks with his Mexican counterpart on the immigration issue. Mexico wants an amnesty for the millions of Mexicans who have invaded this country, but the Administration has enough problems these days without pushing for one.

"I don't expect that in the very near future we will see some omnibus solution to every element of the immigration problem," Mr. Powell said.

This brings us to the bad news.

The bad news is that it doesn't really matter what Mr. Powell says or what the administration does about amnesty for illegals.

It doesn't matter because amnesty is already taking place—not by government fiat or congressional legislation but by osmosis, if you will. This week a detailed report in the Washington Times explained how. [special Report: Changes in the cards, by Mary Shaffrey, The Washington Times, September 7, 2003]

Gradually in several different states immigrants in this country illegally are obtaining documents from state governments or recognized by them that essentially legalize their presence inside the United States.

Once in possession of these documents, the aliens can take part in business and government transactions they are not supposed to be able to conduct.

The documents, in other words, constitute de facto amnesty, or as various commentators have called it, stealth amnesty.

Let us count the ways in which they do this.

Amnesty Document No. 1 is the "matricula consular" card issued by Mexican government to its citizens abroad.

The cards are supposed to entitle the Mexicans holding them to gain the help of Mexican consuls, but these days they have other applications.

Citing testimony from the Center for Immigration Studies, the Times article reports that "The matricula card is accepted as a valid form of identification by police departments, banks and 12 states for driver's license applications." Once you have one in these states, for all practical purposes, you have amnesty.

You also are in a position to transfer money back home to Mexico, which Mexican illegals here did to the tune of some $10 billion just last year, "bolstering the Mexican economy at the expense of the U.S. economy," as the Times noted. You also may be in a position to commit crimes and terrorism against Americans more efficiently.

"FBI officials recently told a Senate committee the matricula cards pose a criminal and terrorist threat, and are easy to obtain through fraud and a lack of adequate security measures by the Mexican government. Most U.S. agencies that accept the matricula do not perform criminal background checks on their subjects."

Amnesty Document No. 2 is the Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) card issued by the Internal Revenue Service.

Its purpose is to allow foreign citizens who do business here to pay income taxes, but there are some 6 million ITINs in circulation, and as Rep. Tom Tancredo says, "The IRS, unfortunately, hands these cards out like candy. There are not 6 million foreign businesses here, so what's the purpose of these numbers?"

Marti Dinerstein of the CIS told a congressional subcommittee in June, "It is assumed that individuals who receive an ITIN and do not file taxes are using it as official U.S. government identification to obtain bank accounts, government services and, ominously, driver's licenses." [Read her testimony here, or the whole report here in PDF. Warning: 3.8 Megabytes!] The IRS, after giving away millions of these cards, is now in the process of revising its methods of distribution. Hooray.

Amnesty Document No. 3 is the driver's license, which the ITIN helps you get in some states (six to be exact), but which you can also get with a Social Security card in two states and without one in some others.

The license of course enables you to get lots of other things that without identification you can't get.

Amnesty Document No. 4 is in-state tuition, not exactly a document but still a legal privilege that eight states already grant to illegal aliens but deny to real Americans from other states.

Nine more states are considering granting the same privilege to illegals. Not only does this allow illegals to gain public education at Americans' expense but also helps normalize their presence within the country, which is what amnesty is all about.

This list doesn't even begin to count the other ways in which illegals are being normalized and granted de facto amnesty, let alone the simple art of making or acquiring fraudulent documents.

The point is, neither Mexico nor the Administration has to do to anything to grant amnesty to illegals.

It's already being granted, with neither the consent nor the knowledge nor the desire of the vast majority of Americans.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Fandango 1,439]

Yanno, I might bend a little on my stance and say that if an employer will be willing to file an affidavit of support for an illegal, and that illegal has no access whatsoever to any means tested benefits, a work visa will at least have the illegal paying some form of taxes.

Note: I did NOT say GC...it should be a work visa only, with expiry dates.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Yanno, I might bend a little on my stance and say that if an employer will be willing to file an affidavit of support for an illegal, and that illegal has no access whatsoever to any means tested benefits, a work visa will at least have the illegal paying some form of taxes.

Note: I did NOT say GC...it should be a work visa only, with expiry dates.

The employer would also have to board the illegal at his own house. Maybe that way there won't be so many cars in the front yard.

[Caladan 19]

The article seems to make a few leaps. How does it endanger homeland security, I wonder? It's an easy thing to throw around, but is the article writer seriously suggesting that anyone accepts an ITIN as identification and that terrorists would have been prevented but for the ITIN?

I don't know of anything that accepts the ITIN as identification. Heck, even the SSN isn't identification on its own, if we're splicing hairs. It's not photo ID. I can't use it on its own for much of anything besides taxes. As we know, advocating for a position isn't the same as that position being actually in the law. You certainly can't get a driver's license without proving you're here legally. So is this a real problem or a made-up shadowy one like a child's bedtime story?

And make up your mind -- is it impossible to get an ITIN without being here legally (therefore proving it's all obtained by fraud), or a ploy intended for people here illegally? You can't have it both ways.

Not true. There are about 9 states that issue driver's licenses to illegals. There was recently a controversy over issuing them to illegals in NY state. And the SSN is used for ID, I know coz I've used it. It's officially against fedral law to use it for anything other than taxes, but it's used for a myriad of things, not only taxes.

I'm not sure who has to make up their mind, but it's clear that nearly anything can be gotten illegally, and the lackadasical attitude of our government is no help to stop that.

You said that you couldn't get an ITIN unless you could prove you were here legally (false, as it turns out) and then followed that up with an article whose premise was, roughly, ITINs are wrong because they help illegals.

If they're already getting driver's licenses, then the ITINs aren't doing anything to add to it. (In all of those states, you need to show valid ID to get a license; the visa status is just irrelevant.) I just don't think that getting rid of ITINs would do anything except end in fewer taxes being paid. And I'd rather see the energy & money spent in modernizing Social Security so that it's realistic for an employer to be able to use it rather than the 'we have 90 days to get back to you' system in place now.

I'm curious. What were the circumstances in which you used your SSN alone as an ID?

I did not say that you had to prove that you are here legally to get an ITIN. Here's what I actually said:

You still have to have some legal basis to get an ITIN. I got one for my husband, so I know you don't just get one. If they are illegal, how do they get tax ID legally?

In all of those states you do not have to show valid ID to get a license. The license is known to be issued to UNDOCUMENTED people, that means they have no valid ID.

The article does not advocate eliminating ITINs, just that it should be used only as intended, and that the IRS needs to bei more responsible about who gets one and how they are used.

I have used SNN as an ID in several instances, none of which comes to mind, but as it is also not used as intended, for tax purposes only, it is also abused.

I looked up Hawaii. Same with Maryland. They have a whole list of documents that count as acceptable ID in order to obtain a driver's license. It's not simply just walk in from the beach, get a license. 'Undocumented' doesn't mean 'can't prove identity' in common use, it means 'can't prove legal presence or work authorization.' Now, maybe they should have higher standards, but it's just not true that they don't require any form of ID to get a license. Like I said, the difference is valid foreign passport vs. valid foreign passport with unexpired I-94. (If the passport is faked or stolen, that's a separate problem, and I'd note that requiring a little piece of paper to be in it doesn't actually prevent that in the states that require proof of legal presence.)

I also looked up the form for the ITIN and the regulations on it. It's a one page form that lists a series of reasons you might need one. None of those reasons say anything about needing a legal basis (or being a legal resident). Alien, non-resident or otherwise, needing to report income who is otherwise ineligible for a SSN. That's it. Include proof of identity, like a passport or USCIS document, etc.

What you're missing is that they are not proving identity or residency, merely showing papers.

The problem with the ITIN is that needing to pay taxes to the US government, which in and of itself implies a valid legal basis for having an ITIN. That the IRS is only interested in the person's money and not their legality when issuing these cards is a problem in and of itself.

They're proving identity and residency at least as well as we did. Consider: to get a driver's license C. had to show his passport, a piece of mail in his name, and the receipt from filing AOS or a letter saying he had filed. It's really only the first two that establish who he is and where he lives; the other one is a piece of paper with his name on it.

The valid legal basis for the ITIN is simply needing to file income taxes. It says nothing about the source of the income or the person's legal presence. Foreign investor, new dependent spouse, illegal worker. Frankly, I don't want the IRS enforcing immigration. We have a whole other branch dedicated to that, and I like my privacy.

[Caladan 19]

And all of those things you list don't mean a person can't be deported. "Stealth amnesty" makes a nice talking point, but it's not like the alternative is the IRS deporting people.

[Peikko 1,575]

The problem with GEG, and others like her is that they place people into little pigeon holes and expect these people to defend opinions that they don't hold. They then get increasingly beligerant when these people refuse to co operate and this non co operation is seen by them as some kind of victory.

Unless you can engage people on the positions they actually hold, rather than positions that you expect them to hold because you have labelled them with the 'illegal alien lover, bleeding heart liberal' brush it's all quite meaningless.

People on here actually try really hard to make sense of things GEG says, for which I give them a great deal of credit because she never returns the favour.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The problem with GEG, and others like her is that they place people into little pigeon holes and expect these people to defend opinions that they don't hold. They then get increasingly beligerant when these people refuse to co operate and this non co operation is seen by them as some kind of victory.

Unless you can engage people on the positions they actually hold, rather than positions that you expect them to hold because you have labelled them with the 'illegal alien lover, bleeding heart liberal' brush it's all quite meaningless.

People on here actually try really hard to make sense of things GEG says, for which I give them a great deal of credit because she never returns the favour.

Amen to that.

[Peikko 1,575]

Lisa

My point was more that I have no vested interest in the truth than the truth doesn't matter. I can only speculate as to why illegal aliens were engaged on his project. Common sense tells me that their is more chance that this was because he chose to pay less regardless of the legal status of his contractor's employees than that there is a conspiracy going on. Clearly, if it becomes evident that he is the victim of a conspiracy I am wrong in my conclusions.

[Peikko 1,575]

It was a little naughty of you to miss of the latter part off my statement, "I simply find politicians a hapless lot who are more often than not caught with their pants down." Context is everything.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Purple_Hibiscus