The M Word

[BIG_O 0]

Ok Sub-Saharan, lets have a fun topic. I'm laughing ahead of time at the responses I'm going to get.

If marriage is an institution, is love a prerequisite?

[BIG_O 0]

No ones bitting?

Ok, I'll give it try... I guess in my point of view, it all boils down to the definition of love. Is it the passionate kind or the platonic kind? I believe that the western culture promotes passionate love over platonic love. It is more exciting, intense and is the subject of a lot of best selling books and blockbuster movies. But I noticed that in a lot of these books and movies, the story often focuses on the early stages of the relationship. The movies usually end in the wedding ceremony, with a promise of a Happily Ever After... So it seems to me that in the Western world, women (and men) are well trained for the stages that lead to the ceremony. This in itself is not a bad thing. Except for the fact that a marriage trully begin the day after the wedding. Thats when things start getting interresting... Perhaps it is because I live in the GREAT state of California, but I am absolutely amazed at the divorce rate in this country. 51%.

Higher in some states, like California... The top reasons usually cited are money and "irreconcilable differences". To me, the latter is a fancy word for saying Real Life Kicked In. Too many times I have had to witness breakups, where someone's feelings had "changed". The individual did not "feel the same way as before", or my favorite "...I am no longer IN LOVE with my husband/wife..." By definition, feelings change. Personally, I don't ever remember feeling the exact same way about anything two days in a row, let alone two months or two years...

In my observation, the kind of love that is forever lasting has passion, but only as an ingredient, among many others. Matter of fact, I believe that this love cannot be the primary reason for a successful marriage. I don't think that the heart was created with a decision making function in mind.

I believe that a wiser decision making process begins with the brain, then the soul. The heart keeps beating, which is what it is meant to do

[Queen Jenn 0]

Well said!!! Passion is one ingredient, but you have to have more than that. Real LOVE involves more than just passion.

I hope this makes sense because it's kind of hard for me to put this into words. But when you really love someone, you have a genuine sense of caring for them. You want what is best for them. You want them to be happy, healthy, and safe. Their well-being becomes your #1 priority.

One of the things that I think is missing in a lot of marriages today is time together. People get so busy with work and school and children (and all of their needs and activities) as well as personal hobbies that they don't spend enough time with their spouse.

IMO, to make a marriage work, you MUST nurture it. You need to spend time together EACH DAY, even if it is only 15 minutes together. I see a lot of people who don't spend time together and then they wonder why, a few years down the road, they have changed and they "don't know each other anymore."

Anyway, I too am appalled at the divorce rate in our country and I am going to work hard to not contribute to it

[Zee Bee 61]

Interesting topic.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: I don't think love is a prerequisite. Like people who have arranged marriages, I can hardly say that there is love there but I'm sure that for the successful marriages, the love comes as time goes on. Besides love I think that you need to have mutual respect and commitment to your partner that you are going to make it work which, I think, are more important in making a relationship work.

[Bassi and Zainab 1]

I agree with you that passion can't be all there is and I agree that you have to spend time together. I think that a marriage works when a friendship develops passion and the two are committed. Friends love and care for each other and weather the storms together. The passion that develops between friends makes such a strong bond that I feel leads to a long marriage no matter what trials the relationship faces. Abass is my best friend. And has been for a long time. In fact, I was originally on a quest to find him a wife cause I thought he was so awesome and I wanted him to be happy. He jokes now about how it was frustrating for him to start feeling strongly for me as more than a friend last year and I kept trying to set him up with the "perfect" woman.

[His Glory 25]

I agree with you that passion can't be all there is and I agree that you have to spend time together. I think that a marriage works when a friendship develops passion and the two are committed. Friends love and care for each other and weather the storms together. The passion that develops between friends makes such a strong bond that I feel leads to a long marriage no matter what trials the relationship faces. Abass is my best friend. And has been for a long time. In fact, I was originally on a quest to find him a wife cause I thought he was so awesome and I wanted him to be happy. He jokes now about how it was frustrating for him to start feeling strongly for me as more than a friend last year and I kept trying to set him up with the "perfect" woman.

Awww that is so sweet Zain Thanks for sharing that.

[Adrians Mom 0]

I agree with you that passion can't be all there is and I agree that you have to spend time together. I think that a marriage works when a friendship develops passion and the two are committed. Friends love and care for each other and weather the storms together. The passion that develops between friends makes such a strong bond that I feel leads to a long marriage no matter what trials the relationship faces. Abass is my best friend. And has been for a long time. In fact, I was originally on a quest to find him a wife cause I thought he was so awesome and I wanted him to be happy. He jokes now about how it was frustrating for him to start feeling strongly for me as more than a friend last year and I kept trying to set him up with the "perfect" woman.

Awww that is so sweet Zain Thanks for sharing that.

Zainab you're right about the friends thing...that's most important to me I believe. And happiness. If you can see yourself being your happiest with this person, then marriage has a better chance of surviving. Alot of our people marry first, and then love later. But are they really happy is the question. I never believed in that theory. When you marry without love it seems so much like just a convenience or more of a business deal or something. But I'm an old-fashioned type of chic....

[Bassi and Zainab 1]

What I find confusing is people who live together. Truthfully.....

I mean, there was a woman on my job who lived with this guy for 14 years without getting married. They dealt with lots of things in 14 years obviously and stayed together. Then got married and were divorced in 18 months. What happened? I don't understand that at all. To be together for 14 years making a life together shows the ability to commit. Why does getting married change anything in the relationship?

[Zee Bee 61]

What I find confusing is people who live together. Truthfully.....

I mean, there was a woman on my job who lived with this guy for 14 years without getting married. They dealt with lots of things in 14 years obviously and stayed together. Then got married and were divorced in 18 months. What happened? I don't understand that at all. To be together for 14 years making a life together shows the ability to commit. Why does getting married change anything in the relationship?

I think it is the "commitment" part that gets to people. I guess when you are not bound legally then there is still that freedom to get out when you want to and not having to worry about anything else. Once you are married that freedom to leave is gone.

I guess when people live together they use it as a period to see if they can live together before they make the plunge into marriage.

[Perseverance 1]

What I find confusing is people who live together. Truthfully.....

I mean, there was a woman on my job who lived with this guy for 14 years without getting married. They dealt with lots of things in 14 years obviously and stayed together. Then got married and were divorced in 18 months. What happened? I don't understand that at all. To be together for 14 years making a life together shows the ability to commit. Why does getting married change anything in the relationship?

[/quote

Unfortunately there are people who change after getting married. I can say that I lived through it, my ex husband (first marriage) was fine until we got married, and then he changed he was very controling and abusive. There was not a hint of that before I said "I do" We were married in June the first time he hit me was August. We lived together before we were married, there was no sign that he would filp the way he did. The years that followed I desperately tried to make things work I tried very hard to make him happy, but he still continued to abuse me and our children, I became deeply depressed, I eventually tried to commit sucide I was so messed up in my head from him I did not realize I was leaving behind in his care my 3 beautiful children. As I swallowed the pills that night I spoke to GOD, I said that if I was meant to leave this unbearable pain and tourture behind so be it. My ex came home to find me slowly slipping deeper and deeper away, he took me to the ER to save me, the doctors and ER staff kept asking me if I was abused did I do this because of him, I defended him. Anyway after a big ordeal and heroics from the ER staff, I lived. I again spoke to GOD and said that there must be a reason that I am still here, the children. I stayed with my ex for 6 more months, you would think that almost losing me would make him realise, but no it continued, finally one day I woke up and realised that if I did not leave, it would happen again. So while he was at work I packed all of my childrens belongings and I fled. After alot of heart ache and feeling like a failure, I realised it was not me. He also came to realise that it was not me. Today we get along just fine. I have forgiven him. For all that he had done to me. Once our divorce was final he was back to the man he was before I married him. But I would never go back to him, I have no assurance that he would not change again. We have agreed to be friends, we did after all share alot together, as I said I forgave him, I do not hate him. He even more than once loaned me money to make trips to see Justice.

Sorry that I rambled on, but people do change with thse words "I DO"

[BIG_O 0]

What an experience, Heather... I am glad to hear that in the end it all worked out.

I don't believe in the "testing the waters before jumping the broom" theory. If someone has been living with a partner for 14 years, getting married is pointless, and can in fact have a very negative impact on the relationship. I have heard of many cases just like the one Zainab mentions.

I also don't believe that a marriage should simply survive. In my observation, people get into the situation with an option to exit from the get go. It's a "I'm gonna give it a shot..." scenario. The marriage support system is quite often weak, or non-existant... The expectations are unrealistic, and often misguided. How can a marriage make it if ones career ambitions out-rank it?

[Bassi and Zainab 1]

Unfortunately there are people who change after getting married. I can say that I lived through it, my ex husband (first marriage) was fine until we got married, and then he changed he was very controling and abusive. There was not a hint of that before I said "I do" We were married in June the first time he hit me was August. We lived together before we were married, there was no sign that he would filp the way he did. The years that followed I desperately tried to make things work I tried very hard to make him happy, but he still continued to abuse me and our children, I became deeply depressed, I eventually tried to commit sucide I was so messed up in my head from him I did not realize I was leaving behind in his care my 3 beautiful children. As I swallowed the pills that night I spoke to GOD, I said that if I was meant to leave this unbearable pain and tourture behind so be it. My ex came home to find me slowly slipping deeper and deeper away, he took me to the ER to save me, the doctors and ER staff kept asking me if I was abused did I do this because of him, I defended him. Anyway after a big ordeal and heroics from the ER staff, I lived. I again spoke to GOD and said that there must be a reason that I am still here, the children. I stayed with my ex for 6 more months, you would think that almost losing me would make him realise, but no it continued, finally one day I woke up and realised that if I did not leave, it would happen again. So while he was at work I packed all of my childrens belongings and I fled. After alot of heart ache and feeling like a failure, I realised it was not me. He also came to realise that it was not me. Today we get along just fine. I have forgiven him. For all that he had done to me. Once our divorce was final he was back to the man he was before I married him. But I would never go back to him, I have no assurance that he would not change again. We have agreed to be friends, we did after all share alot together, as I said I forgave him, I do not hate him. He even more than once loaned me money to make trips to see Justice.

Sorry that I rambled on, but people do change with thse words "I DO"

Wow! I'm sorry that you suffered through so much. What do you think made him change? I mean why would he be one way when you were living together but not married and become abusive when you were married? Was it something in his past or was he drinking or something? How does the actual marraige trigger that? I wonder because you said that once you were divorced he snapped back to normal. So, what happened? How scary!

[Bassi and Zainab 1]

I also don't believe that a marriage should simply survive. In my observation, people get into the situation with an option to exit from the get go. It's a "I'm gonna give it a shot..." scenario. The marriage support system is quite often weak, or non-existant... The expectations are unrealistic, and often misguided.

I'm curious about how many of us have had some type of marriage counseling before this step or plan to have something. What's your marriage support, I mean?

For us, it's interesting because for one, we had to go before the chief and speak with him personally. Usually this is done by a parent, but we had to speak with him ourselves as well. I don't think this is usual. Also, Bassi told me that all the men in the mosque have met with him to talk with him about what marriage is and what his responsibilities will be and essentially to counsel him. The women did the same with me and talked to me also about trusting and committing to this marriage after a previous failed marriage. I ended up crying really because my previous failed marriage was very painful for me....til death do us part and all that jazz, ya know? Anyway, we are going to be part of a couples group here, when he gets here and we're married, to provide ongoing relationship support. Also, his cousin in Missouri is supposed to be our family mediator. (I gave him that title. lol. but it seems that the Bandago tribe feels that problems in the marriage are supposed to be "mediated" by a Bandago to ensure a strong marraige and fair treatment to both the wife and the husband. They didn't use the term mediation, but being that I work in HR and it sounds just like the mediation we do at work, I've given it a name I can understand.) In my first marriage, I had nothing like this(not that he would have participated anyway). I feel almost like our families are supporting us immensely to see a successful marriage. It's like building on a rock instead of sand.

[Perseverance 1]

Unfortunately there are people who change after getting married. I can say that I lived through it, my ex husband (first marriage) was fine until we got married, and then he changed he was very controling and abusive. There was not a hint of that before I said "I do" We were married in June the first time he hit me was August. We lived together before we were married, there was no sign that he would filp the way he did. The years that followed I desperately tried to make things work I tried very hard to make him happy, but he still continued to abuse me and our children, I became deeply depressed, I eventually tried to commit sucide I was so messed up in my head from him I did not realize I was leaving behind in his care my 3 beautiful children. As I swallowed the pills that night I spoke to GOD, I said that if I was meant to leave this unbearable pain and tourture behind so be it. My ex came home to find me slowly slipping deeper and deeper away, he took me to the ER to save me, the doctors and ER staff kept asking me if I was abused did I do this because of him, I defended him. Anyway after a big ordeal and heroics from the ER staff, I lived. I again spoke to GOD and said that there must be a reason that I am still here, the children. I stayed with my ex for 6 more months, you would think that almost losing me would make him realise, but no it continued, finally one day I woke up and realised that if I did not leave, it would happen again. So while he was at work I packed all of my childrens belongings and I fled. After alot of heart ache and feeling like a failure, I realised it was not me. He also came to realise that it was not me. Today we get along just fine. I have forgiven him. For all that he had done to me. Once our divorce was final he was back to the man he was before I married him. But I would never go back to him, I have no assurance that he would not change again. We have agreed to be friends, we did after all share alot together, as I said I forgave him, I do not hate him. He even more than once loaned me money to make trips to see Justice.

Sorry that I rambled on, but people do change with thse words "I DO"

Wow! I'm sorry that you suffered through so much. What do you think made him change? I mean why would he be one way when you were living together but not married and become abusive when you were married? Was it something in his past or was he drinking or something? How does the actual marraige trigger that? I wonder because you said that once you were divorced he snapped back to normal. So, what happened? How scary!

I dont really dont have an answer for that I have asked him and we have discussed it many times, he does not know either, but admits that something inside him changed after we were married. I gave up on trying to figure it out. I am a stronger person from the experience and I know now that I will never let a human treat me or my children that way ever again. I dont believe that he is a bad man, but I dont think that he should ever marry again, He is a different person.

I dont think that, it is the same with everyone, not at all. I just wanted to let you know that it does happen.