Anti-immigration hysteria holds 17M Latino voters hostage

[Peikko 1,575]

The only thing I have been arguing in this thread is that there is more than a little bigotry against Hispanics. I have not made one comment that could possibly lead you, or anyone to believe that I am in favour of breaking laws The entire highlighted section seems to be addressing the fact that I have a lax attitude to the law. Very, very odd so go ahead and explain why that should be addressed to me.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.

I think its entirely possible to have a discussion without getting angry or outraged - I don't think that sort of negativity really serves the purposes of a legitimate discussion. So no I don't think its silly or impossible, but I also acknowledge that its more difficult for some than others.

Weren't you saying something a few pages ago along similar lines - about judgmental attitudes?

Edited November 14, 2007 by Number 6

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.

I think its entirely possible to have a discussion without getting angry or outraged - I don't think that sort of negativity really serves the purposes of a legitimate discussion. So no I don't think its silly or impossible, but I also acknowledge that its more difficult for some than others.

Weren't you saying something a few pages ago along similar lines - about judgmental attitudes?

good to hear that. i can look forward to not getting any more attempts at hateful comments left on my profile now like what, 3 months ago?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.

I think its entirely possible to have a discussion without getting angry or outraged - I don't think that sort of negativity really serves the purposes of a legitimate discussion. So no I don't think its silly or impossible, but I also acknowledge that its more difficult for some than others.

Weren't you saying something a few pages ago along similar lines - about judgmental attitudes?

good to hear that. i can look forward to not getting any more attempts at hateful comments left on my profile now like what, 3 months ago?

I never said I was perfect - however as I've said many times in the past if I've ever written anything that's caused offence to anyone then I certainly apologise.

Of course discussions with you in the past have had a tendency to get heated - I can admit that - though that being a given I do wonder why its ok to rub my nose in 3 month old comments and year old posts without some sort of admission of fault for your own conduct. While I don't justify them - I don't think it can be said that they were entirely unprovoked.

[Fandango 1,439]

The way I read it (independent of anything VJ Troll has said elsewhere) he wasn't specifically accusing people of racism but rather pointing out a general phenomenon. I think the thing we have to accept regardless of our own personal views and differences on this issue is that when you're dealing with a social issue that puts a spotlight on a specific cultural/ethnic group you invariably see racism. Its really inevitable. The fact is that the largest proportion of illegal immigrants comes from Mexico and elsewhere in Central and South America - that's not really in doubt, IMO at least. Whereever you have a divide along ethnic or cultural lines you'll always get racism or some other form of bigotry - its the lowest common demoninator of the debate. More than that I think its just as apparent in the US with illegal immigrants as it was in the UK with the Slavic asylum seekers.

You are right to point out that illegal immigration is a real issue that really must be addressed, and that legitimate arguments shouldn't be stifled by baseless accusations of racism. But again I think its important to realise that the racism is there, and it has a tendency to creep into those legitimate arguments when things get heated (and in case anyone asks - that's not specifically directed at members of this site). In that respect I don't think people do themselves any favours by resorting to stereotyping, and I view things like racial profiling along the same lines; necessary perhaps (though I'm really undecided about this) but which will always be problematic.

As far as people being cut out of the decision-making process and being disenfranchised I think that's also valid. There has been decades worth of inaction on the part of government, along with various attempts at amnesty. If we're talking blame here - its not unreasonable to ask why our elected representatives over the years haven't done much of anything about it - though that's a rhetorical question of course. Beyond that I do think we have to look to ourselves for giving those people the power in the first place. If they're not serving the public interest then they have no business in the job. But then politics tends to attract the worst while demanding the best.

Good point!

But I don't think racism creeps into a debate like this. I believe it is dumped by the truckload. I think that when you can no longer defend the legal issue, you throw in the race card and hope nobody notices the switch.

Racism and bigotry are terribly negative to a society and they do exist. But the cases of racism and bigotry pale to the number of illegal immigrants (estimate on my part) and I firmly believe that if you deal with the issue of illegal immigration then the racism and bigotry will dwindle. I will not fool myself into believing that we will ever get rid of it entirely for there will always be someone who feels they are superior for one reason or another, but we can go a long way toward eliminating a large portion of it. But maybe I am a bit optimistic.

That's fair - and no I don't think we're seeing it specifically in this thread, but I have read comments in others about illegal immigration that well... raised my eyebrows anyway. I think we do ourselves something of a disservice by framing the debate in emotional terms, and all the anger (justified or otherwise) that gets expressed tends to lend itself toward the lower end of the scale.

I agree with so much of the above. The 'R' label IS thrown around by the truckload.

And 6, I dunno what G's intent was, but whether he means what I inferred or not, it doesn't change what I was talking about. There is a tendency to go to the emotional in a discussion like this...and I agree with you that we all do ourselves a disservice by framing it in emotional terms. But I also think to say 'This angers me, and this is why' isn't necessarily coming from a place solely of emotion.

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.

I think its entirely possible to have a discussion without getting angry or outraged - I don't think that sort of negativity really serves the purposes of a legitimate discussion. So no I don't think its silly or impossible, but I also acknowledge that its more difficult for some than others.

Weren't you saying something a few pages ago along similar lines - about judgmental attitudes?

good to hear that. i can look forward to not getting any more attempts at hateful comments left on my profile now like what, 3 months ago?

I never said I was perfect - however as I've said many times in the past if I've ever written anything that's caused offence to anyone then I certainly apologise.

Of course discussions with you in the past have had a tendency to get heated - I can admit that - though that being a given I do wonder why its ok to rub my nose in 3 month old comments and year old posts without some sort of admission of fault for your own conduct. While I don't justify them - I don't think it can be said that they were entirely unprovoked.

don't make excuses for yourself nor should you leave out pertinent facts. like you leave out the important fact that you pm'ed me first, which resulted in your being put on pm ban, so you resorted to attempts to leave comments on my profile.......

don't worry, although they are unpublished, they are in my photobucket account.......

[Peikko 1,575]

I must resist the urge to t a p m y F i n g e r s :P

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.

I think its entirely possible to have a discussion without getting angry or outraged - I don't think that sort of negativity really serves the purposes of a legitimate discussion. So no I don't think its silly or impossible, but I also acknowledge that its more difficult for some than others.

Weren't you saying something a few pages ago along similar lines - about judgmental attitudes?

good to hear that. i can look forward to not getting any more attempts at hateful comments left on my profile now like what, 3 months ago?

I never said I was perfect - however as I've said many times in the past if I've ever written anything that's caused offence to anyone then I certainly apologise.

Of course discussions with you in the past have had a tendency to get heated - I can admit that - though that being a given I do wonder why its ok to rub my nose in 3 month old comments and year old posts without some sort of admission of fault for your own conduct. While I don't justify them - I don't think it can be said that they were entirely unprovoked.

don't make excuses for yourself nor should you leave out pertinent facts. like you leave out the important fact that you pm'ed me first, which resulted in your being put on pm ban, so you resorted to attempts to leave comments on my profile.......

don't worry, although they are unpublished, they are in my photobucket account.......

As I recall in the thread that prompted that - you did pretty much call me a liar. Might be a personal thing - but (to me) that's one of the worst character slurs out there.

But fair enough - that's no excuse, and again I apologise.

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.

I think its entirely possible to have a discussion without getting angry or outraged - I don't think that sort of negativity really serves the purposes of a legitimate discussion. So no I don't think its silly or impossible, but I also acknowledge that its more difficult for some than others.

Weren't you saying something a few pages ago along similar lines - about judgmental attitudes?

good to hear that. i can look forward to not getting any more attempts at hateful comments left on my profile now like what, 3 months ago?

I never said I was perfect - however as I've said many times in the past if I've ever written anything that's caused offence to anyone then I certainly apologise.

Of course discussions with you in the past have had a tendency to get heated - I can admit that - though that being a given I do wonder why its ok to rub my nose in 3 month old comments and year old posts without some sort of admission of fault for your own conduct. While I don't justify them - I don't think it can be said that they were entirely unprovoked.

don't make excuses for yourself nor should you leave out pertinent facts. like you leave out the important fact that you pm'ed me first, which resulted in your being put on pm ban, so you resorted to attempts to leave comments on my profile.......

don't worry, although they are unpublished, they are in my photobucket account.......

As I recall in the thread that prompted that - you did pretty much call me a liar. Might be a personal thing - but (to me) that's one of the worst character slurs out there.

But fair enough - that's no excuse, and again I apologise.

would you have prefered "morally and ethically bankrupt" instead?

[Peikko 1,575]

Don't you think an apology for past wrong doings is enough to draw a line and move on?

Yes, I know this is a personal dispute between you and N6, but really, it's like watching teeth being pulled, enough already, please.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.

I think its entirely possible to have a discussion without getting angry or outraged - I don't think that sort of negativity really serves the purposes of a legitimate discussion. So no I don't think its silly or impossible, but I also acknowledge that its more difficult for some than others.

Weren't you saying something a few pages ago along similar lines - about judgmental attitudes?

good to hear that. i can look forward to not getting any more attempts at hateful comments left on my profile now like what, 3 months ago?

I never said I was perfect - however as I've said many times in the past if I've ever written anything that's caused offence to anyone then I certainly apologise.

Of course discussions with you in the past have had a tendency to get heated - I can admit that - though that being a given I do wonder why its ok to rub my nose in 3 month old comments and year old posts without some sort of admission of fault for your own conduct. While I don't justify them - I don't think it can be said that they were entirely unprovoked.

don't make excuses for yourself nor should you leave out pertinent facts. like you leave out the important fact that you pm'ed me first, which resulted in your being put on pm ban, so you resorted to attempts to leave comments on my profile.......

don't worry, although they are unpublished, they are in my photobucket account.......

As I recall in the thread that prompted that - you did pretty much call me a liar. Might be a personal thing - but (to me) that's one of the worst character slurs out there.

But fair enough - that's no excuse, and again I apologise.

would you have prefered "morally and ethically bankrupt" instead?

Well as I indicated previously that comment was made over a year ago - in a thread that was pretty heated all around (yourself included) and I've apologised for it numerous times as being over the line of acceptability. So I have to wonder what you're getting out of pulling it out of the bag again and again, rather than putting it aside and moviong on.

So what I'm reading here is that the apologies made here and in the past count for nothing and presumably you really do think I am a liar. Either way, I think that at the least its pretty poor form. IMO there's really only so many times you can keep playing that card before speaks to a distinct lack of humility. I apologise, you don't. I think that says quite a bit. But again - thats just me.

Now that you bring it up however - I never mentioned the comment made by you in that thread where you questioned my manhood. I could have, but I didn't. And here I am apologising yet again, while receiving little more than backhanded comments in return.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Don't you think an apology for past wrong doings is enough to draw a line and move on?

It should be. Its not like there's much more that can be done.

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

Don't you think an apology for past wrong doings is enough to draw a line and move on?

Yes, I know this is a personal dispute between you and N6, but really, it's like watching teeth being pulled, enough already, please.

there's always the auto-ignore feature of alt-f4

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

Don't you think an apology for past wrong doings is enough to draw a line and move on?

It should be. Its not like there's much more that can be done.

let's just say talking the high road and taking the low road is at time "ironic"

[no name 1]

Don't you think an apology for past wrong doings is enough to draw a line and move on?

It should be. Its not like there's much more that can be done.

let's just say talking the high road and taking the low road is at time "ironic"

oh good, I thought only I thought that.....

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.

I think its entirely possible to have a discussion without getting angry or outraged - I don't think that sort of negativity really serves the purposes of a legitimate discussion. So no I don't think its silly or impossible, but I also acknowledge that its more difficult for some than others.

Weren't you saying something a few pages ago along similar lines - about judgmental attitudes?

Re-read my post please. This subject is very near & dear to our hearts - it's why we are HERE. Anyone who claims they can discuss it without emotion is lying.

Edited November 14, 2007 by devilette