Anti-immigration hysteria holds 17M Latino voters hostage

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

well i've learned another thing today in vj. to speak about illegals, one must have as a credential personal knowledge of at least several illegals

but are you FRIENDS with them? Would you say this venom to their face???

i don't have any illegal friends.......

but i've taken note of a certain comment in this thread, next time someone wants to lecture me about guns, the military, or war i'll throw that at her

[Fandango 1,439]

Bravo Lisa, bravo.

It's crazy how much we're agreeing these days.

####### happened?

[JenT 0]

The devil is now wearing his woolies.

[no name 1]

Bravo Lisa, bravo.

It's crazy how much we're agreeing these days.

####### happened?

well it is all illegal immigrant stuff. Let's not get into guns or war or Republicans.

[JenT 0]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=95779&hl=

[Peikko 1,575]

Wrong, hence my chasing rainbow global solution. I honestly believe that if one could improve the situation of those in poverty stricken countries then there would simply be less incentive for anyone to immigrate illegally and yes, those who didn't even get the opportunity to leave get an improved situation as well.

I suppose it comes down to the fact that if dollars are going to be spent, I'd rather they were spent on a solution than a sticking plaster. However, I do understand that even this expensive sticking plaster is probably a drop in the ocean if you compare it to the costs of improving the quality of life globally.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think one of the reasons this issue resonates with people so much is because they see it. What they see is a sudden and widespread change in the nature of their communities and like all change, this change is frightening. They may dress it up in noble terms (like 'they broke the law') but IMHO it's really about their communities changing in a manner they do not want - and did not ask for. It's racism, but it's more. It's about being cut out of the decision making process by the elites. They decided our communities would be the way our communities are turning out to be, we didn't get to decide that. So while the racism element does exist (they are a 'visible' minority), the larger issue really is of control. Who controls our communities, and by extension our destinies? Do we? Or do the powers that be?

This issue has the potential to be a real populist firestorm.

I think the only reason why it has such potential to be such a firestorm is for statements like yours, G dawg.

Discounting the opinions of others as 'racist' or being 'traditionalist xenophobes' is quite offensive to me. It does a great disservice, imo, to feel the need to label a view like mine as anything other than what I explain it to be. If I wanted to be a racist...I would be. That's the great thing about America..it comes with the freedom to do so. But I'm not a racist. And I am so sick of being accused of being one.

Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with...that much, everyone agrees on (I think). But there's a real trickle down effect.... I do feel they take jobs away from the blue collar worker. I do feel they lower the mkt value of an American laborer. There's financial advantage to those who hire these people. Employers don't have to pay as much tax...the country doesn't make as much revenue in taxes...those who do pay taxes do so under a fake social. Which should be 'no big deal' cos they're only looking for a 'better way of life', right?

I've read so many other things in this thread, and it'd be impossible for me to quote every single one of them. But can an illegal do my job? No. One has to go for licensure and background checks, etc to do my job. But that doesn't mean that illegals do not affect me.

Our resources are drained...schooling, health care, prisons....look at how high the cost of hospital services are. You don't think those are partically offsetting the losses of the county hospitals for treating the uninsured? Yes, we have American uninsured...but they are our responsibility.

Look at how overworked and underpaid our teachers are.

Let's figure the cost of what one illegal inmate costs us, the taxpayer...let alone the cost to the victim/family.

While I am not saying we would have a utopian society, many things would ease up should they magically disappear overnight. Not poss, I know. But ignoring these facts is not going to make it easier.

The curious thing that I can't wrap my head round is that those who are for some sort of illegal forgiveness are usually liberals. Who are supposedly those for all sorts for the 'little guy'. Who's worried about little Joe American? Oh, we could say that that's a separate issue...but it's not. There's no magic fairy wand to fix the world's issues. Oh, but this country would grind to a halt should there be no illegals, right? Those who make claims as such fail to realize that illegals are 'useful' insomuch as they are illegal....the second they are legal is when they won't have to work for below min wage. One shouldn't be able to benefit off of essentially slave labor whilst patting oneself on the back for being such a pure and kind hearted soul.

David could get here and work like a mule, but if I didn't have the ability to support him, he wouldn't get a visa. Not so with illegals.

David will be screened physically to make sure he is free from communicable diseases. Not so with illegals.

David req's a police check to make sure he is not guilty of CIMTs or various other offenses. Not so with illegals.

These are real, legitimate concerns. To wrap this up like it's based in 'OH NOES THE BROWN PPL ARE COMING!' is just sickeningly ignorant imo.

The way I read it (independent of anything VJ Troll has said elsewhere) he wasn't specifically accusing people of racism but rather pointing out a general phenomenon. I think the thing we have to accept regardless of our own personal views and differences on this issue is that when you're dealing with a social issue that puts a spotlight on a specific cultural/ethnic group you invariably see racism. Its really inevitable. The fact is that the largest proportion of illegal immigrants comes from Mexico and elsewhere in Central and South America - that's not really in doubt, IMO at least. Whereever you have a divide along ethnic or cultural lines you'll always get racism or some other form of bigotry - its the lowest common demoninator of the debate. More than that I think its just as apparent in the US with illegal immigrants as it was in the UK with the Slavic asylum seekers.

You are right to point out that illegal immigration is a real issue that really must be addressed, and that legitimate arguments shouldn't be stifled by baseless accusations of racism. But again I think its important to realise that the racism is there, and it has a tendency to creep into those legitimate arguments when things get heated (and in case anyone asks - that's not specifically directed at members of this site). In that respect I don't think people do themselves any favours by resorting to stereotyping, and I view things like racial profiling along the same lines; necessary perhaps (though I'm really undecided about this) but which will always be problematic.

As far as people being cut out of the decision-making process and being disenfranchised I think that's also valid. There has been decades worth of inaction on the part of government, along with various attempts at amnesty. If we're talking blame here - its not unreasonable to ask why our elected representatives over the years haven't done much of anything about it - though that's a rhetorical question of course. Beyond that I do think we have to look to ourselves for giving those people the power in the first place. If they're not serving the public interest then they have no business in the job. But then politics tends to attract the worst while demanding the best.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Number 6

[JODO 2]

I don't feel powerless.. but I don't trust the current immigration policies and the enforcement they have.. fukc..where I live there's several illegal families, I know they have fake papers.. and sometimes I'm afraid, that ICE will go and raid the ###### out of the building, withouth asking first.. it has happened before, arresting legal residents who happened to 'look' or have 'the last name' as the suspects.. I'm really afraid they'll get into my apartment and do their illegal nazi ######..

now that i'm caught up.........

pedroh, lemme see if i get this straight: you know several illegal families in your area yet do nothing. you know they have fake papers, and you do nothing. yet you are worried ice will come bother you. why don't you do your civic duty and report them?

well i've learned another thing today in vj. to speak about illegals, one must have as a credential personal knowledge of at least several illegals

well i've learned another thing today in vj. to speak about illegals, one must have as a credential personal knowledge of at least several illegals

but are you FRIENDS with them? Would you say this venom to their face???

I agree with a lot of what you say up until the point here:

post Today, 02:37 PM

The curious thing that I can't wrap my head round is that those who are for some sort of illegal forgiveness are usually liberals. Who are supposedly those for all sorts for the 'little guy'. Who's worried about little Joe American? Oh, we could say that that's a separate issue...but it's not. There's no magic fairy wand to fix the world's issues. Oh, but this country would grind to a halt should there be no illegals, right? Those who make claims as such fail to realize that illegals are 'useful' insomuch as they are illegal....the second they are legal is when they won't have to work for below min wage. One shouldn't be able to benefit off of essentially slave labor whilst patting oneself on the back for being such a pure and kind hearted soul.

then I get lost because you start making the same assumptions that you are accusing others (me) of making. Those who are 'for some soft of illegal forgiveness' is a very broad brush. For my part, I question the fiscal responsibility of the so called illegal immigration solutions and the plethora of bad law and quick fix solutions that seem to abound every time the question of illegal immigration is brought up. I also have sympathy for those who are illegal immigrants due to economic necessity and would argue for a global solution that would ultimately be a win win for everyone, though I admit on that one I am chasing rainbows.

As for this thread, I don't think bigotry against Hispanics is some Hispanic histeria creation. It exists out there in the big world beyond VJ and many legal Hispanics suffer from the consequences of this bigotry.

Of course it's a v broad brush...yet I am at a loss as to what to call the anti-anti-illegals

I have sympathy as well....but sympathy and empathy don't change a thing. Where's the sympathy for those even LESS fortunate than the illegals???? You know, the ones who don't even have the means nor the resources to illegally immigrate. Oh, but they're not here so it's besides the point, right?

[NavarreMan 10]

Shouldn't the affected nationality be up in arms against their fellow illegal countrymen/women that are generating this furor?

Only if you think that legal Hispanics are responsible for what illegal Hispanics do. I expect though that there are many Hispanics who entered the US legally or born in the US who do not support illegal immigration. I don't expect them to rise up and denounce Hispanic illegals in particular.

They are up in arms against those of us that think the illegals should go. A little one sided don't you think?

Considering the subjects of this discussion you have pretty much run out of choices on who you are pointing the finger at. A logical conclusion would be that you are referring to the white race and their/our infamous bigotry towards others.

No, I am quite aware that the US has a mixed racial profile, it is not necessary for a bigot to be white, nor do I despise white bigots more than any other bigot, that would make no sense. Your quote seems to imply that I am randomly pointing fingers at all and sundry, not so, I am calling out bigotry.

Fair enough.

The illegals claim they are "victims" of racial hatred and bigoted acts. They are the lawbreakers. Do not confuse facts here. The hispanic/latino community has risen en mase to defend rights which the illegals have not earned through legal immigration. I will not shed one tear for the illegals nor those who wrongfully aid and protect them.

Illegal immigrants can be victims of bigoted acts, the fact that they are illegal doesn't somehow make everything else that happens to them ok.

100% correct. But do not forget that they too are breaking the law.

Legal Hispanics have the right, the same as anyone else to protest and call for change. They have every right to defend acts of bigotry that are committed against illegal immigrants if they so wish. None of this is an excuse for bigotry against them.

It would be ideal if they would paint little dots on their faces so we could tell the difference. Unfortunately we cannot read minds and therefore are labeled bigots because we are against illegal immigration. The majority of the illegal immigrants in this country are Hispanic. If you are Hispanic and tired of being targeted as an illegal then stand up and help get the illegals out. Like you said earlier, you cannot tell if a white person is a bigot by looking at them nor can you tell if a Hispanic or any other nationality) is an illegal immigrant just by looking at them. But in the wonderful words of our fearless leader, you are either for us or against us.

Hence the confusion for the rest of us trying to identify an illegal immigrant from a legal one. You just don't know until you talk to one or check their papers. Oh, but then we are racially profiling someone. Would it be asking too much for the legal immigrants to help ferret out the illegals? Of course it is. But then they go one step further and protest to encourage breaking the law, and in the process call me a bad person because I promote enforcing the law. Who is calling who names here?

Why are you trying to identify illegal immigrants again? It is your personal choice of course, but as an ordinary citizen you don't have the right to check people's papers to satisfy your personal curiosity. As regards law enforcement agencies there is no magic formula for them to identify illegal immigrants but none of this makes it ok to target Hispanice communities because it's convenient to do so.

BECAUSE THEY ARE THE LAW BREAKERS. Is this rocket science to you? What do you have against the laws in our country? It has nothing to do with my personal curiosity. I never said I wanted to check anyone's ID. That is the job of our police and border patrol and other LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND???

What's with the name calling part? I don't recall calling anyone a bad person, refresh my memory.

I never said you called me a name.

The activists for illegal immigration reform (yes, pun intended) are the ones who accuse me, as an American, of trampling the "rights" of illegal immigrants. They certainly have rights as humans and should be treated with respect and dignity as they are being led from our country, but do not expect me to offer them all the rights and privileges of being a citizen when their first act on American soil is to ignore and break our laws. I hate using the term immigrants because it denotes that there is some resemblance of immigration in what they have done. They are trespassers in our country. They are here without permission.

Who knows? It just may take one family of illegals squatting on your land before the message finally gets through to you. Yes, let's go there. You come home from work one day and there is an illegal immigrant family camped out in your front yard. What do you do? One day several families camp out at the local park where your kids play. What do you do? One day they come by the thousands across our border and camp out and utilize our social system that they have not contributed to. WHAT DO YOU DO? I am not paranoid, it is happening! Where do you draw the line. Why do you get to choose which laws are enforced and which ones can be broken with impunity?

Your entire argument is based on the premise that the first act by these people in our country is an illegal one, but hey, that's just fine and dandy with you as long as we don't hurt their feelings and if we do then we are the bad people. Well at least we agree on one thing. There is no justification in being a bigot. You are trying your best to make it into a race issue when it is much simpler than that. They are law breakers and you are doing your best to defend them for breaking the law. Let them have their day in court and deal with the verdict. If you cannot handle that concept then you are living in the wrong country, for that is one of the fundamental rights of every citizen of this country and I for one, cherish this right, and will defend it to the death and I will fight for the rights of those who do not hide their guilt behind our Constitution.

[Peikko 1,575]

I never said you called me a name.

The activists for illegal immigration reform (yes, pun intended) are the ones who accuse me, as an American, of trampling the "rights" of illegal immigrants. They certainly have rights as humans and should be treated with respect and dignity as they are being led from our country, but do not expect me to offer them all the rights and privileges of being a citizen when their first act on American soil is to ignore and break our laws. I hate using the term immigrants because it denotes that there is some resemblance of immigration in what they have done. They are trespassers in our country. They are here without permission.

Who knows? It just may take one family of illegals squatting on your land before the message finally gets through to you. Yes, let's go there. You come home from work one day and there is an illegal immigrant family camped out in your front yard. What do you do? One day several families camp out at the local park where your kids play. What do you do? One day they come by the thousands across our border and camp out and utilize our social system that they have not contributed to. WHAT DO YOU DO? I am not paranoid, it is happening! Where do you draw the line. Why do you get to choose which laws are enforced and which ones can be broken with impunity?

Your entire argument is based on the premise that the first act by these people in our country is an illegal one, but hey, that's just fine and dandy with you as long as we don't hurt their feelings and if we do then we are the bad people. Well at least we agree on one thing. There is no justification in being a bigot. You are trying your best to make it into a race issue when it is much simpler than that. They are law breakers and you are doing your best to defend them for breaking the law. Let them have their day in court and deal with the verdict. If you cannot handle that concept then you are living in the wrong country, for that is one of the fundamental rights of every citizen of this country and I for one, cherish this right, and will defend it to the death and I will fight for the rights of those who do not hide their guilt behind our Co

Where did you take this turn based on anything I said?

[NavarreMan 10]

I think one of the reasons this issue resonates with people so much is because they see it. What they see is a sudden and widespread change in the nature of their communities and like all change, this change is frightening. They may dress it up in noble terms (like 'they broke the law') but IMHO it's really about their communities changing in a manner they do not want - and did not ask for. It's racism, but it's more. It's about being cut out of the decision making process by the elites. They decided our communities would be the way our communities are turning out to be, we didn't get to decide that. So while the racism element does exist (they are a 'visible' minority), the larger issue really is of control. Who controls our communities, and by extension our destinies? Do we? Or do the powers that be?

This issue has the potential to be a real populist firestorm.

I think the only reason why it has such potential to be such a firestorm is for statements like yours, G dawg.

Discounting the opinions of others as 'racist' or being 'traditionalist xenophobes' is quite offensive to me. It does a great disservice, imo, to feel the need to label a view like mine as anything other than what I explain it to be. If I wanted to be a racist...I would be. That's the great thing about America..it comes with the freedom to do so. But I'm not a racist. And I am so sick of being accused of being one.

Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with...that much, everyone agrees on (I think). But there's a real trickle down effect.... I do feel they take jobs away from the blue collar worker. I do feel they lower the mkt value of an American laborer. There's financial advantage to those who hire these people. Employers don't have to pay as much tax...the country doesn't make as much revenue in taxes...those who do pay taxes do so under a fake social. Which should be 'no big deal' cos they're only looking for a 'better way of life', right?

I've read so many other things in this thread, and it'd be impossible for me to quote every single one of them. But can an illegal do my job? No. One has to go for licensure and background checks, etc to do my job. But that doesn't mean that illegals do not affect me.

Our resources are drained...schooling, health care, prisons....look at how high the cost of hospital services are. You don't think those are partically offsetting the losses of the county hospitals for treating the uninsured? Yes, we have American uninsured...but they are our responsibility.

Look at how overworked and underpaid our teachers are.

Let's figure the cost of what one illegal inmate costs us, the taxpayer...let alone the cost to the victim/family.

While I am not saying we would have a utopian society, many things would ease up should they magically disappear overnight. Not poss, I know. But ignoring these facts is not going to make it easier.

The curious thing that I can't wrap my head round is that those who are for some sort of illegal forgiveness are usually liberals. Who are supposedly those for all sorts for the 'little guy'. Who's worried about little Joe American? Oh, we could say that that's a separate issue...but it's not. There's no magic fairy wand to fix the world's issues. Oh, but this country would grind to a halt should there be no illegals, right? Those who make claims as such fail to realize that illegals are 'useful' insomuch as they are illegal....the second they are legal is when they won't have to work for below min wage. One shouldn't be able to benefit off of essentially slave labor whilst patting oneself on the back for being such a pure and kind hearted soul.

David could get here and work like a mule, but if I didn't have the ability to support him, he wouldn't get a visa. Not so with illegals.

David will be screened physically to make sure he is free from communicable diseases. Not so with illegals.

David req's a police check to make sure he is not guilty of CIMTs or various other offenses. Not so with illegals.

These are real, legitimate concerns. To wrap this up like it's based in 'OH NOES THE BROWN PPL ARE COMING!' is just sickeningly ignorant imo.

The way I read it (independent of anything VJ Troll has said elsewhere) he wasn't specifically accusing people of racism but rather pointing out a general phenomenon. I think the thing we have to accept regardless of our own personal views and differences on this issue is that when you're dealing with a social issue that puts a spotlight on a specific cultural/ethnic group you invariably see racism. Its really inevitable. The fact is that the largest proportion of illegal immigrants comes from Mexico and elsewhere in Central and South America - that's not really in doubt, IMO at least. Whereever you have a divide along ethnic or cultural lines you'll always get racism or some other form of bigotry - its the lowest common demoninator of the debate. More than that I think its just as apparent in the US with illegal immigrants as it was in the UK with the Slavic asylum seekers.

You are right to point out that illegal immigration is a real issue that really must be addressed, and that legitimate arguments shouldn't be stifled by baseless accusations of racism. But again I think its important to realise that the racism is there, and it has a tendency to creep into those legitimate arguments when things get heated (and in case anyone asks - that's not specifically directed at members of this site). In that respect I don't think people do themselves any favours by resorting to stereotyping, and I view things like racial profiling along the same lines; necessary perhaps (though I'm really undecided about this) but which will always be problematic.

As far as people being cut out of the decision-making process and being disenfranchised I think that's also valid. There has been decades worth of inaction on the part of government, along with various attempts at amnesty. If we're talking blame here - its not unreasonable to ask why our elected representatives over the years haven't done much of anything about it - though that's a rhetorical question of course. Beyond that I do think we have to look to ourselves for giving those people the power in the first place. If they're not serving the public interest then they have no business in the job. But then politics tends to attract the worst while demanding the best.

Good point!

But I don't think racism creeps into a debate like this. I believe it is dumped by the truckload. I think that when you can no longer defend the legal issue, you throw in the race card and hope nobody notices the switch.

Racism and bigotry are terribly negative to a society and they do exist. But the cases of racism and bigotry pale to the number of illegal immigrants (estimate on my part) and I firmly believe that if you deal with the issue of illegal immigration then the racism and bigotry will dwindle. I will not fool myself into believing that we will ever get rid of it entirely for there will always be someone who feels they are superior for one reason or another, but we can go a long way toward eliminating a large portion of it. But maybe I am a bit optimistic.

[NavarreMan 10]

I never said you called me a name.

The activists for illegal immigration reform (yes, pun intended) are the ones who accuse me, as an American, of trampling the "rights" of illegal immigrants. They certainly have rights as humans and should be treated with respect and dignity as they are being led from our country, but do not expect me to offer them all the rights and privileges of being a citizen when their first act on American soil is to ignore and break our laws. I hate using the term immigrants because it denotes that there is some resemblance of immigration in what they have done. They are trespassers in our country. They are here without permission.

Who knows? It just may take one family of illegals squatting on your land before the message finally gets through to you. Yes, let's go there. You come home from work one day and there is an illegal immigrant family camped out in your front yard. What do you do? One day several families camp out at the local park where your kids play. What do you do? One day they come by the thousands across our border and camp out and utilize our social system that they have not contributed to. WHAT DO YOU DO? I am not paranoid, it is happening! Where do you draw the line. Why do you get to choose which laws are enforced and which ones can be broken with impunity?

Your entire argument is based on the premise that the first act by these people in our country is an illegal one, but hey, that's just fine and dandy with you as long as we don't hurt their feelings and if we do then we are the bad people. Well at least we agree on one thing. There is no justification in being a bigot. You are trying your best to make it into a race issue when it is much simpler than that. They are law breakers and you are doing your best to defend them for breaking the law. Let them have their day in court and deal with the verdict. If you cannot handle that concept then you are living in the wrong country, for that is one of the fundamental rights of every citizen of this country and I for one, cherish this right, and will defend it to the death and I will fight for the rights of those who do not hide their guilt behind our Co

Where did you take this turn based on anything I said?

I have limited time. Please be more specific about what has to be explained to you again.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think one of the reasons this issue resonates with people so much is because they see it. What they see is a sudden and widespread change in the nature of their communities and like all change, this change is frightening. They may dress it up in noble terms (like 'they broke the law') but IMHO it's really about their communities changing in a manner they do not want - and did not ask for. It's racism, but it's more. It's about being cut out of the decision making process by the elites. They decided our communities would be the way our communities are turning out to be, we didn't get to decide that. So while the racism element does exist (they are a 'visible' minority), the larger issue really is of control. Who controls our communities, and by extension our destinies? Do we? Or do the powers that be?

This issue has the potential to be a real populist firestorm.

I think the only reason why it has such potential to be such a firestorm is for statements like yours, G dawg.

Discounting the opinions of others as 'racist' or being 'traditionalist xenophobes' is quite offensive to me. It does a great disservice, imo, to feel the need to label a view like mine as anything other than what I explain it to be. If I wanted to be a racist...I would be. That's the great thing about America..it comes with the freedom to do so. But I'm not a racist. And I am so sick of being accused of being one.

Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with...that much, everyone agrees on (I think). But there's a real trickle down effect.... I do feel they take jobs away from the blue collar worker. I do feel they lower the mkt value of an American laborer. There's financial advantage to those who hire these people. Employers don't have to pay as much tax...the country doesn't make as much revenue in taxes...those who do pay taxes do so under a fake social. Which should be 'no big deal' cos they're only looking for a 'better way of life', right?

I've read so many other things in this thread, and it'd be impossible for me to quote every single one of them. But can an illegal do my job? No. One has to go for licensure and background checks, etc to do my job. But that doesn't mean that illegals do not affect me.

Our resources are drained...schooling, health care, prisons....look at how high the cost of hospital services are. You don't think those are partically offsetting the losses of the county hospitals for treating the uninsured? Yes, we have American uninsured...but they are our responsibility.

Look at how overworked and underpaid our teachers are.

Let's figure the cost of what one illegal inmate costs us, the taxpayer...let alone the cost to the victim/family.

While I am not saying we would have a utopian society, many things would ease up should they magically disappear overnight. Not poss, I know. But ignoring these facts is not going to make it easier.

The curious thing that I can't wrap my head round is that those who are for some sort of illegal forgiveness are usually liberals. Who are supposedly those for all sorts for the 'little guy'. Who's worried about little Joe American? Oh, we could say that that's a separate issue...but it's not. There's no magic fairy wand to fix the world's issues. Oh, but this country would grind to a halt should there be no illegals, right? Those who make claims as such fail to realize that illegals are 'useful' insomuch as they are illegal....the second they are legal is when they won't have to work for below min wage. One shouldn't be able to benefit off of essentially slave labor whilst patting oneself on the back for being such a pure and kind hearted soul.

David could get here and work like a mule, but if I didn't have the ability to support him, he wouldn't get a visa. Not so with illegals.

David will be screened physically to make sure he is free from communicable diseases. Not so with illegals.

David req's a police check to make sure he is not guilty of CIMTs or various other offenses. Not so with illegals.

These are real, legitimate concerns. To wrap this up like it's based in 'OH NOES THE BROWN PPL ARE COMING!' is just sickeningly ignorant imo.

The way I read it (independent of anything VJ Troll has said elsewhere) he wasn't specifically accusing people of racism but rather pointing out a general phenomenon. I think the thing we have to accept regardless of our own personal views and differences on this issue is that when you're dealing with a social issue that puts a spotlight on a specific cultural/ethnic group you invariably see racism. Its really inevitable. The fact is that the largest proportion of illegal immigrants comes from Mexico and elsewhere in Central and South America - that's not really in doubt, IMO at least. Whereever you have a divide along ethnic or cultural lines you'll always get racism or some other form of bigotry - its the lowest common demoninator of the debate. More than that I think its just as apparent in the US with illegal immigrants as it was in the UK with the Slavic asylum seekers.

You are right to point out that illegal immigration is a real issue that really must be addressed, and that legitimate arguments shouldn't be stifled by baseless accusations of racism. But again I think its important to realise that the racism is there, and it has a tendency to creep into those legitimate arguments when things get heated (and in case anyone asks - that's not specifically directed at members of this site). In that respect I don't think people do themselves any favours by resorting to stereotyping, and I view things like racial profiling along the same lines; necessary perhaps (though I'm really undecided about this) but which will always be problematic.

As far as people being cut out of the decision-making process and being disenfranchised I think that's also valid. There has been decades worth of inaction on the part of government, along with various attempts at amnesty. If we're talking blame here - its not unreasonable to ask why our elected representatives over the years haven't done much of anything about it - though that's a rhetorical question of course. Beyond that I do think we have to look to ourselves for giving those people the power in the first place. If they're not serving the public interest then they have no business in the job. But then politics tends to attract the worst while demanding the best.

Good point!

But I don't think racism creeps into a debate like this. I believe it is dumped by the truckload. I think that when you can no longer defend the legal issue, you throw in the race card and hope nobody notices the switch.

Racism and bigotry are terribly negative to a society and they do exist. But the cases of racism and bigotry pale to the number of illegal immigrants (estimate on my part) and I firmly believe that if you deal with the issue of illegal immigration then the racism and bigotry will dwindle. I will not fool myself into believing that we will ever get rid of it entirely for there will always be someone who feels they are superior for one reason or another, but we can go a long way toward eliminating a large portion of it. But maybe I am a bit optimistic.

That's fair - and no I don't think we're seeing it specifically in this thread, but I have read comments in others about illegal immigration that well... raised my eyebrows anyway. I think we do ourselves something of a disservice by framing the debate in emotional terms, and all the anger (justified or otherwise) that gets expressed tends to lend itself toward the lower end of the scale.

[NavarreMan 10]

I rarely get emotional about normal stuff. But I love the USA and though our system is less than pefect, it is among the best I have experienced. Many Americans today do not, or do not want to, understand and participate in what it takes to keep us free. I guess I am just a geek about legal stuff.

[no name 1]

Considering why we all know each other - legal immigration & all....to claim we need to remove the emotion from the debate seems - well, silly. Not to mention impossible.