Anti-immigration hysteria holds 17M Latino voters hostage

[Alex+R 0]

I guess I meant more the people who crusade against illegal immigration and seem so passionate about a problem that to me doesn't have more impact on their lives than several other issues they care less about -- does that passion come from an underlying feeling of powerlessness?

They impact my life every day. Yours too.

They are a constant drain on resources that should be available to USCs/LPRs. They use my tax $$ for thier medical care. To educate their kids. They take jobs Americans could have. They send their hard earned $$ back to their country, not kept here in our ecomony.

How many illegal immigrants do you know personally? Who are they in your life?

eta: I didn't say it didn't have an impact on anyone's life. But it doesn't have the same impact some other issues have, yet gets a lot more attention than some others.

I don't need to spell it out.

There's plenty, I live in SoCal. There's plenty in NYC every day as well. They're not called sancutary cities for nothing.

Why does it have a huge impact? You're joking, right? The name (LEGAL) VISA JOURNEY, ring a bell? VJ Sheesh.

I didn't say "why does it have a huge impact" so I'm not sure what you're referring to. I just asked you how many you know personally. I know there are a lot here. I know several personally. And I'm wondering if you do.

Sorry, 'more impact'. See highlighted areas above.

So you don't know any personally.

I hardly think illegal immigration has a bigger impact than the war. You know, on the planet, which we are part of.

Sigh. Yes, Alex, I do. In several cities. Am I qualified to speak about it now?

And the war affects me too. I never said it was more or less important. Care to point where someone did?

Question: would you say all the things you say to their faces? I'm assuming you're not friends... but anyway, no, Devilette, nobody said it. Rather, I was giving an example of my point. A lot fewer people argue about the war, or all the dead from the war, than about illegal immigration, which seems innocuous by comparison. Hmmmm I wonder if there's a connection...

Why the 3rd degree Alex? If I talk to illegals or not is not the point here. Do not assume anything about me.

PS: Visa Journey is a website about IMMIGRATION, not war, hence the numerous discussions of illegal vs. legal immigration. Not sure how much clearer I can make it.

VJ is about immigration, but last I checked, the rest of the country seems to care quite a bit about the immigration issue, too. At least according to all those crazy newspapers and websites I read. The third degree is about you seeming to forget that you're talking about human beings. I'm just curious why you're so deeply, personally angry that you've forgotten those things.

[no name 1]

Question: would you say all the things you say to their faces? I'm assuming you're not friends... but anyway, no, Devilette, nobody said it. Rather, I was giving an example of my point. A lot fewer people argue about the war, or all the dead from the war, than about illegal immigration, which seems innocuous by comparison. Hmmmm I wonder if there's a connection...

Why the 3rd degree Alex? If I talk to illegals or not is not the point here. Do not assume anything about me.

PS: Visa Journey is a website about IMMIGRATION, not war, hence the numerous discussions of illegal vs. legal immigration. Not sure how much clearer I can make it.

VJ is about immigration, but last I checked, the rest of the country seems to care quite a bit about the immigration issue, too. At least according to all those crazy newspapers and websites I read. The third degree is about you seeming to forget that you're talking about human beings. I'm just curious why you're so deeply, personally angry that you've forgotten those things.

See there you go (yet again) assuming things & making judgement calls about me. Not cool. Nor is it true.

[Alex+R 0]

Question: would you say all the things you say to their faces? I'm assuming you're not friends... but anyway, no, Devilette, nobody said it. Rather, I was giving an example of my point. A lot fewer people argue about the war, or all the dead from the war, than about illegal immigration, which seems innocuous by comparison. Hmmmm I wonder if there's a connection...

Why the 3rd degree Alex? If I talk to illegals or not is not the point here. Do not assume anything about me.

PS: Visa Journey is a website about IMMIGRATION, not war, hence the numerous discussions of illegal vs. legal immigration. Not sure how much clearer I can make it.

VJ is about immigration, but last I checked, the rest of the country seems to care quite a bit about the immigration issue, too. At least according to all those crazy newspapers and websites I read. The third degree is about you seeming to forget that you're talking about human beings. I'm just curious why you're so deeply, personally angry that you've forgotten those things.

See there you go (yet again) assuming things & making judgement calls about me. Not cool. Nor is it true.

I haven't assumed anything about you until now. Maybe that sentence should have said "I'm just curious why your written words seem to be those of a person who is so deeply, personally angry." Maybe you aren't as angry in real life as you portray yourself to be on VJ, so that's fair for you to point out.

[JenT 0]

Tried to pm you, Alex, but your inbox is full....

[no name 1]

Question: would you say all the things you say to their faces? I'm assuming you're not friends... but anyway, no, Devilette, nobody said it. Rather, I was giving an example of my point. A lot fewer people argue about the war, or all the dead from the war, than about illegal immigration, which seems innocuous by comparison. Hmmmm I wonder if there's a connection...

Why the 3rd degree Alex? If I talk to illegals or not is not the point here. Do not assume anything about me.

PS: Visa Journey is a website about IMMIGRATION, not war, hence the numerous discussions of illegal vs. legal immigration. Not sure how much clearer I can make it.

VJ is about immigration, but last I checked, the rest of the country seems to care quite a bit about the immigration issue, too. At least according to all those crazy newspapers and websites I read. The third degree is about you seeming to forget that you're talking about human beings. I'm just curious why you're so deeply, personally angry that you've forgotten those things.

See there you go (yet again) assuming things & making judgement calls about me. Not cool. Nor is it true.

I haven't assumed anything about you until now. Maybe that sentence should have said "I'm just curious why your written words seem to be those of a person who is so deeply, personally angry." Maybe you aren't as angry in real life as you portray yourself to be on VJ, so that's fair for you to point out.

Judging someone does wonders for your argument. You sound much *better*, ya know?

[Alex+R 0]

JenT it's open now. But I finished with this convo. Sorry Devilette for anything harsh I said; it was never my intent to be anything but civil and I think I crossed the line.

[natty bumppo 297]

Sorry, not trying to be confusing, I just get really confused with mega quoted quotes. I'll try to at least make some reference to who/what next time.

Thanks

I know it's hard to keep up sometimes ... and keep things organized without making a mistake.

Been there... done that ... and well sometimes the cat got an unexpected treat ... spilled milk.

[Fandango 1,439]

I think one of the reasons this issue resonates with people so much is because they see it. What they see is a sudden and widespread change in the nature of their communities and like all change, this change is frightening. They may dress it up in noble terms (like 'they broke the law') but IMHO it's really about their communities changing in a manner they do not want - and did not ask for. It's racism, but it's more. It's about being cut out of the decision making process by the elites. They decided our communities would be the way our communities are turning out to be, we didn't get to decide that. So while the racism element does exist (they are a 'visible' minority), the larger issue really is of control. Who controls our communities, and by extension our destinies? Do we? Or do the powers that be?

This issue has the potential to be a real populist firestorm.

I think the only reason why it has such potential to be such a firestorm is for statements like yours, G dawg.

Discounting the opinions of others as 'racist' or being 'traditionalist xenophobes' is quite offensive to me. It does a great disservice, imo, to feel the need to label a view like mine as anything other than what I explain it to be. If I wanted to be a racist...I would be. That's the great thing about America..it comes with the freedom to do so. But I'm not a racist. And I am so sick of being accused of being one.

Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with...that much, everyone agrees on (I think). But there's a real trickle down effect.... I do feel they take jobs away from the blue collar worker. I do feel they lower the mkt value of an American laborer. There's financial advantage to those who hire these people. Employers don't have to pay as much tax...the country doesn't make as much revenue in taxes...those who do pay taxes do so under a fake social. Which should be 'no big deal' cos they're only looking for a 'better way of life', right?

I've read so many other things in this thread, and it'd be impossible for me to quote every single one of them. But can an illegal do my job? No. One has to go for licensure and background checks, etc to do my job. But that doesn't mean that illegals do not affect me.

Our resources are drained...schooling, health care, prisons....look at how high the cost of hospital services are. You don't think those are partically offsetting the losses of the county hospitals for treating the uninsured? Yes, we have American uninsured...but they are our responsibility.

Look at how overworked and underpaid our teachers are.

Let's figure the cost of what one illegal inmate costs us, the taxpayer...let alone the cost to the victim/family.

While I am not saying we would have a utopian society, many things would ease up should they magically disappear overnight. Not poss, I know. But ignoring these facts is not going to make it easier.

The curious thing that I can't wrap my head round is that those who are for some sort of illegal forgiveness are usually liberals. Who are supposedly those for all sorts for the 'little guy'. Who's worried about little Joe American? Oh, we could say that that's a separate issue...but it's not. There's no magic fairy wand to fix the world's issues. Oh, but this country would grind to a halt should there be no illegals, right? Those who make claims as such fail to realize that illegals are 'useful' insomuch as they are illegal....the second they are legal is when they won't have to work for below min wage. One shouldn't be able to benefit off of essentially slave labor whilst patting oneself on the back for being such a pure and kind hearted soul.

David could get here and work like a mule, but if I didn't have the ability to support him, he wouldn't get a visa. Not so with illegals.

David will be screened physically to make sure he is free from communicable diseases. Not so with illegals.

David req's a police check to make sure he is not guilty of CIMTs or various other offenses. Not so with illegals.

These are real, legitimate concerns. To wrap this up like it's based in 'OH NOES THE BROWN PPL ARE COMING!' is just sickeningly ignorant imo.

[no name 1]

I think one of the reasons this issue resonates with people so much is because they see it. What they see is a sudden and widespread change in the nature of their communities and like all change, this change is frightening. They may dress it up in noble terms (like 'they broke the law') but IMHO it's really about their communities changing in a manner they do not want - and did not ask for. It's racism, but it's more. It's about being cut out of the decision making process by the elites. They decided our communities would be the way our communities are turning out to be, we didn't get to decide that. So while the racism element does exist (they are a 'visible' minority), the larger issue really is of control. Who controls our communities, and by extension our destinies? Do we? Or do the powers that be?

This issue has the potential to be a real populist firestorm.

I think the only reason why it has such potential to be such a firestorm is for statements like yours, G dawg.

Discounting the opinions of others as 'racist' or being 'traditionalist xenophobes' is quite offensive to me. It does a great disservice, imo, to feel the need to label a view like mine as anything other than what I explain it to be. If I wanted to be a racist...I would be. That's the great thing about America..it comes with the freedom to do so. But I'm not a racist. And I am so sick of being accused of being one.

Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with...that much, everyone agrees on (I think). But there's a real trickle down effect.... I do feel they take jobs away from the blue collar worker. I do feel they lower the mkt value of an American laborer. There's financial advantage to those who hire these people. Employers don't have to pay as much tax...the country doesn't make as much revenue in taxes...those who do pay taxes do so under a fake social. Which should be 'no big deal' cos they're only looking for a 'better way of life', right?

I've read so many other things in this thread, and it'd be impossible for me to quote every single one of them. But can an illegal do my job? No. One has to go for licensure and background checks, etc to do my job. But that doesn't mean that illegals do not affect me.

Our resources are drained...schooling, health care, prisons....look at how high the cost of hospital services are. You don't think those are partically offsetting the losses of the county hospitals for treating the uninsured? Yes, we have American uninsured...but they are our responsibility.

Look at how overworked and underpaid our teachers are.

Let's figure the cost of what one illegal inmate costs us, the taxpayer...let alone the cost to the victim/family.

While I am not saying we would have a utopian society, many things would ease up should they magically disappear overnight. Not poss, I know. But ignoring these facts is not going to make it easier.

The curious thing that I can't wrap my head round is that those who are for some sort of illegal forgiveness are usually liberals. Who are supposedly those for all sorts for the 'little guy'. Who's worried about little Joe American? Oh, we could say that that's a separate issue...but it's not. There's no magic fairy wand to fix the world's issues. Oh, but this country would grind to a halt should there be no illegals, right? Those who make claims as such fail to realize that illegals are 'useful' insomuch as they are illegal....the second they are legal is when they won't have to work for below min wage. One shouldn't be able to benefit off of essentially slave labor whilst patting oneself on the back for being such a pure and kind hearted soul.

David could get here and work like a mule, but if I didn't have the ability to support him, he wouldn't get a visa. Not so with illegals.

David will be screened physically to make sure he is free from communicable diseases. Not so with illegals.

David req's a police check to make sure he is not guilty of CIMTs or various other offenses. Not so with illegals.

These are real, legitimate concerns. To wrap this up like it's based in 'OH NOES THE BROWN PPL ARE COMING!' is just sickeningly ignorant imo.

Bravo Lisa, bravo.

Edited November 13, 2007 by devilette

[no name 1]

Some guy just walked into my work & asked if I wanted to buy strawberries - he had a box full. #######? I wonder if he was legal....sorry, that door to door fruit selling is legal. Bet not.

Edited November 13, 2007 by devilette

[Peikko 1,575]

I agree with a lot of what you say up until the point here:

post Today, 02:37 PM

The curious thing that I can't wrap my head round is that those who are for some sort of illegal forgiveness are usually liberals. Who are supposedly those for all sorts for the 'little guy'. Who's worried about little Joe American? Oh, we could say that that's a separate issue...but it's not. There's no magic fairy wand to fix the world's issues. Oh, but this country would grind to a halt should there be no illegals, right? Those who make claims as such fail to realize that illegals are 'useful' insomuch as they are illegal....the second they are legal is when they won't have to work for below min wage. One shouldn't be able to benefit off of essentially slave labor whilst patting oneself on the back for being such a pure and kind hearted soul.

then I get lost because you start making the same assumptions that you are accusing others (me) of making. Those who are 'for some soft of illegal forgiveness' is a very broad brush. For my part, I question the fiscal responsibility of the so called illegal immigration solutions and the plethora of bad law and quick fix solutions that seem to abound every time the question of illegal immigration is brought up. I also have sympathy for those who are illegal immigrants due to economic necessity and would argue for a global solution that would ultimately be a win win for everyone, though I admit on that one I am chasing rainbows.

As for this thread, I don't think bigotry against Hispanics is some Hispanic histeria creation. It exists out there in the big world beyond VJ and many legal Hispanics suffer from the consequences of this bigotry.

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

I don't feel powerless.. but I don't trust the current immigration policies and the enforcement they have.. fukc..where I live there's several illegal families, I know they have fake papers.. and sometimes I'm afraid, that ICE will go and raid the ###### out of the building, withouth asking first.. it has happened before, arresting legal residents who happened to 'look' or have 'the last name' as the suspects.. I'm really afraid they'll get into my apartment and do their illegal nazi ######..

now that i'm caught up.........

pedroh, lemme see if i get this straight: you know several illegal families in your area yet do nothing. you know they have fake papers, and you do nothing. yet you are worried ice will come bother you. why don't you do your civic duty and report them?

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

well i've learned another thing today in vj. to speak about illegals, one must have as a credential personal knowledge of at least several illegals

[no name 1]

well i've learned another thing today in vj. to speak about illegals, one must have as a credential personal knowledge of at least several illegals

but are you FRIENDS with them? Would you say this venom to their face???

[Fandango 1,439]

I agree with a lot of what you say up until the point here:

post Today, 02:37 PM

The curious thing that I can't wrap my head round is that those who are for some sort of illegal forgiveness are usually liberals. Who are supposedly those for all sorts for the 'little guy'. Who's worried about little Joe American? Oh, we could say that that's a separate issue...but it's not. There's no magic fairy wand to fix the world's issues. Oh, but this country would grind to a halt should there be no illegals, right? Those who make claims as such fail to realize that illegals are 'useful' insomuch as they are illegal....the second they are legal is when they won't have to work for below min wage. One shouldn't be able to benefit off of essentially slave labor whilst patting oneself on the back for being such a pure and kind hearted soul.

then I get lost because you start making the same assumptions that you are accusing others (me) of making. Those who are 'for some soft of illegal forgiveness' is a very broad brush. For my part, I question the fiscal responsibility of the so called illegal immigration solutions and the plethora of bad law and quick fix solutions that seem to abound every time the question of illegal immigration is brought up. I also have sympathy for those who are illegal immigrants due to economic necessity and would argue for a global solution that would ultimately be a win win for everyone, though I admit on that one I am chasing rainbows.

As for this thread, I don't think bigotry against Hispanics is some Hispanic histeria creation. It exists out there in the big world beyond VJ and many legal Hispanics suffer from the consequences of this bigotry.

Of course it's a v broad brush...yet I am at a loss as to what to call the anti-anti-illegals

I have sympathy as well....but sympathy and empathy don't change a thing. Where's the sympathy for those even LESS fortunate than the illegals???? You know, the ones who don't even have the means nor the resources to illegally immigrate. Oh, but they're not here so it's besides the point, right?