Anti-immigration hysteria holds 17M Latino voters hostage

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This was a great original post, with a valid and underrepresented POV.

And then Gupt said this:

I think one of the reasons this issue resonates with people so much is because they see it. What they see is a sudden and widespread change in the nature of their communities and like all change, this change is frightening. They may dress it up in noble terms (like 'they broke the law') but IMHO it's really about their communities changing in a manner they do not want - and did not ask for. It's racism, but it's more. It's about being cut out of the decision making process by the elites. They decided our communities would be the way our communities are turning out to be, we didn't get to decide that. So while the racism element does exist (they are a 'visible' minority), the larger issue really is of control. Who controls our communities, and by extension our destinies? Do we? Or do the powers that be?

This issue has the potential to be a real populist firestorm.

And that was a really good point. And then what the hell happened to the discussion? I want to have the discussion that comes from that post. Even if you take out the word "racism" from the equation, it's still really interesting to look at whether or not this is about powerlessness. I'd like to know if anyone on VJ feels that way. I've certainly seen some posters say that in the past.

To me, that's the only explanation for the emotional outrage that people express over the issue. Fear, hysteria and paranoia manifested into angry outrage. Just listen to the rhetoric - it's a national security issue, it's about laws and lawlessness, it's about the Mexican flag, it's about people not assimilating. People need to take a grip of their emotions and find out what is really fueling them.

[pedroh 21]

I don't feel powerless.. but I don't trust the current immigration policies and the enforcement they have.. fukc..where I live there's several illegal families, I know they have fake papers.. and sometimes I'm afraid, that ICE will go and raid the ###### out of the building, withouth asking first.. it has happened before, arresting legal residents who happened to 'look' or have 'the last name' as the suspects.. I'm really afraid they'll get into my apartment and do their illegal nazi ######..

I guess I meant more the people who crusade against illegal immigration and seem so passionate about a problem that to me doesn't have more impact on their lives than several other issues they care less about -- does that passion come from an underlying feeling of powerlessness?

I understand people being against illegal immigration, but I've seen people getting all passionate and sh!t, loathing, hating, abhorring the illegals, #######, that's a waste of time, there's not point of doing that, is not that they will notice.. I guess it's people that fear the omg illegalz, their customs, or that they don't have anything better to do.. just wasting their time.. loosers

[NavarreMan 10]

Your remark about the bigotry in America was worded in such a way as to indicate that the dirty deeds are done only by the bigots in America.

Yes, because what we are talking about here is, as I understand it, that Hispanics living legally in America are treated differently than those who cannot be identified in a clear and easy way with an illegal population by bigots.

Shouldn't the affected nationality be up in arms against their fellow illegal countrymen/women that are generating this furor?

A great deal of the cause for the "ill will" the "bigots" hold toward the hispanic population is brought on by their own countrymen/women.

See above.

The same can be said if you stereotype whites as bigots or African Americans as criminals or drug dealers.

What? I am not stereotyping Whites as bigots I am saying that there is a vocal minority of bigots against Hispanics, I didn't specify which group they might belong to themselves, although clearly they can't be Hispanic because that wouldn't make much sense.

Considering the subjects of this discussion you have pretty much run out of choices on who you are pointing the finger at. A logical conclusion would be that you are referring to the white race and their/our infamous bigotry towards others.

There is good and bad in all of us

Very true.

and your statement was worded so as to take away the responsibility of the "victims" in this mess.

How are victims responsible for things that happen to them? I have heard people say these kind of things before, but that's sort of like saying, you are responsible for the fact that you are raped, or robbed, or any crime. The fact is, the person responsible for the crime is the criminal, period.

The illegals claim they are "victims" of racial hatred and bigoted acts. They are the lawbreakers. Do not confuse facts here. The hispanic/latino community has risen en mase to defend rights which the illegals have not earned through legal immigration. I will not shed one tear for the illegals nor those who wrongfully aid and protect them.

I simply changed the word bigot for illegals and presto chango, you get bent out of shape. The same can be said for your reply to my post:

I don't understand this. I am not "bent out of shape". I do challenge some of the statements you make though.

Yes, there are a significant proportion of whites who are or look like bigots. Does that make it acceptable to treat whites who are or look bigots differently?

How does one 'look like' a bigot? One can certainly sound like one, but to look like one?

Hense the confusion for the rest of us trying to identify an illegal immigrant from a legal one. You just don't know until you talk to one or check their papers. Oh, but then we are racially profiling someone. Would it be asking too much for the legal immigrants to help ferret out the illegals? Of course it is. But then they go one step further and protest to encourage breaking the law, and in the process call me a bad person because I promote enforcing the law. Who is calling who names here?

I am trying my hardest to be fair to all. Occasionally I get a little more than passionate about the subject but I always try to remain fair. I don't care if you are hispanic, stupid or purple, DON'T BREAK THE LAW!!! Is that too difficult to understand?

I'm surprised you didn't question this one as well...

[no name 1]

I guess I meant more the people who crusade against illegal immigration and seem so passionate about a problem that to me doesn't have more impact on their lives than several other issues they care less about -- does that passion come from an underlying feeling of powerlessness?

They impact my life every day. Yours too.

They are a constant drain on resources that should be available to USCs/LPRs. They use my tax $$ for thier medical care. To educate their kids. They take jobs Americans could have. They send their hard earned $$ back to their country, not kept here in our ecomony.

[pedroh 21]

This was a great original post, with a valid and underrepresented POV.

And then Gupt said this:

I think one of the reasons this issue resonates with people so much is because they see it. What they see is a sudden and widespread change in the nature of their communities and like all change, this change is frightening. They may dress it up in noble terms (like 'they broke the law') but IMHO it's really about their communities changing in a manner they do not want - and did not ask for. It's racism, but it's more. It's about being cut out of the decision making process by the elites. They decided our communities would be the way our communities are turning out to be, we didn't get to decide that. So while the racism element does exist (they are a 'visible' minority), the larger issue really is of control. Who controls our communities, and by extension our destinies? Do we? Or do the powers that be?

This issue has the potential to be a real populist firestorm.

And that was a really good point. And then what the hell happened to the discussion? I want to have the discussion that comes from that post. Even if you take out the word "racism" from the equation, it's still really interesting to look at whether or not this is about powerlessness. I'd like to know if anyone on VJ feels that way. I've certainly seen some posters say that in the past.

To me, that's the only explanation for the emotional outrage that people express over the issue. Fear, hysteria and paranoia manifested into angry outrage. Just listen to the rhetoric - it's a national security issue, it's about laws and lawlessness, it's about the Mexican flag, it's about people not assimilating. People need to take a grip of their emotions and find out what is really fueling them.

troo dat.. people get to ####### about such an issue

I guess I meant more the people who crusade against illegal immigration and seem so passionate about a problem that to me doesn't have more impact on their lives than several other issues they care less about -- does that passion come from an underlying feeling of powerlessness?

They impact my life every day. Yours too.

They are a constant drain on resources that should be available to USCs/LPRs. They use my tax $$ for thier medical care. To educate their kids. They take jobs Americans could have. They send their hard earned $$ back to their country, not kept here in our ecomony.

jobs americans don't wanna do.. rather than could have.. well, actually i have to correct.. jobs anyone who is sane wouldn't do.. doesn't have to be americans

[Alex+R 0]

I guess I meant more the people who crusade against illegal immigration and seem so passionate about a problem that to me doesn't have more impact on their lives than several other issues they care less about -- does that passion come from an underlying feeling of powerlessness?

They impact my life every day. Yours too.

They are a constant drain on resources that should be available to USCs/LPRs. They use my tax $$ for thier medical care. To educate their kids. They take jobs Americans could have. They send their hard earned $$ back to their country, not kept here in our ecomony.

How many illegal immigrants do you know personally? Who are they in your life?

eta: I didn't say it didn't have an impact on anyone's life. But it doesn't have the same impact some other issues have, yet gets a lot more attention than some others.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Alex+R

[no name 1]

To me, that's the only explanation for the emotional outrage that people express over the issue. Fear, hysteria and paranoia manifested into angry outrage. Just listen to the rhetoric - it's a national security issue, it's about laws and lawlessness, it's about the Mexican flag, it's about people not assimilating. People need to take a grip of their emotions and find out what is really fueling them.

troo dat.. people get to ####### about such an issue

Look in the mirror pedroh. Every post you have is full of swearing & outrage.

jobs americans don't wanna do.. rather than could have.. well, actually i have to correct.. jobs anyone who is sane wouldn't do.. doesn't have to be americans

yeah, those meatpacking plants you bring up every other day....

[pedroh 21]

I guess I meant more the people who crusade against illegal immigration and seem so passionate about a problem that to me doesn't have more impact on their lives than several other issues they care less about -- does that passion come from an underlying feeling of powerlessness?

They impact my life every day. Yours too.

They are a constant drain on resources that should be available to USCs/LPRs. They use my tax $$ for thier medical care. To educate their kids. They take jobs Americans could have. They send their hard earned $$ back to their country, not kept here in our ecomony.

How many illegal immigrants do you know personally? Who are they in your life?

CUZ THEY'RE OUT THERE!! OMGG!!!!!! THEY IMPACT MY DRIVING FROM MY NICE JOB TO MY NICE SUBURBAN HOME!! THEY IMPACT TAKING MY KIDS TO SOCCER!

no.

To me, that's the only explanation for the emotional outrage that people express over the issue. Fear, hysteria and paranoia manifested into angry outrage. Just listen to the rhetoric - it's a national security issue, it's about laws and lawlessness, it's about the Mexican flag, it's about people not assimilating. People need to take a grip of their emotions and find out what is really fueling them.

troo dat.. people get to ####### about such an issue

Look in the mirror pedroh. Every post you have is full of swearing & outrage.

jobs americans don't wanna do.. rather than could have.. well, actually i have to correct.. jobs anyone who is sane wouldn't do.. doesn't have to be americans

yeah, those meatpacking plants you bring up every other day....

that's right, for me that's enough proof, of people rather staying in poverty and welfare than work.. fukc, it's a meatpacking job, u don't need to get paid 15 dollars an hour for that..

[no name 1]

I guess I meant more the people who crusade against illegal immigration and seem so passionate about a problem that to me doesn't have more impact on their lives than several other issues they care less about -- does that passion come from an underlying feeling of powerlessness?

They impact my life every day. Yours too.

They are a constant drain on resources that should be available to USCs/LPRs. They use my tax $$ for thier medical care. To educate their kids. They take jobs Americans could have. They send their hard earned $$ back to their country, not kept here in our ecomony.

How many illegal immigrants do you know personally? Who are they in your life?

eta: I didn't say it didn't have an impact on anyone's life. But it doesn't have the same impact some other issues have, yet gets a lot more attention than some others.

I don't need to spell it out.

There's plenty, I live in SoCal. There's plenty in NYC every day as well. They're not called sancutary cities for nothing.

Why does it have a huge impact? You're joking, right? The name (LEGAL) VISA JOURNEY, ring a bell? VJ Sheesh.

Edited November 13, 2007 by devilette

[pedroh 21]

pff. outrage? I'm not the one posting articles every freakin hour, I have better things to do than rant.. and I don't abhorr, hate, loathe the 'anti illegal crowd'.. as on the other hand, I've read people expressing such horrible feelings against people they will never ever meet.. there's more in life than hating a specific group that will probably will never affect you directly..

I guess I meant more the people who crusade against illegal immigration and seem so passionate about a problem that to me doesn't have more impact on their lives than several other issues they care less about -- does that passion come from an underlying feeling of powerlessness?

They impact my life every day. Yours too.

They are a constant drain on resources that should be available to USCs/LPRs. They use my tax $$ for thier medical care. To educate their kids. They take jobs Americans could have. They send their hard earned $$ back to their country, not kept here in our ecomony.

How many illegal immigrants do you know personally? Who are they in your life?

eta: I didn't say it didn't have an impact on anyone's life. But it doesn't have the same impact some other issues have, yet gets a lot more attention than some others.

I don't need to spell it out.

There's plenty, I live in SoCal. There's plenty in NYC every day as well. They're not called sancutary cities for nothing.

Why does it have a huge impact? You're joking, right? The name (LEGAL) VISA JOURNEY, ring a bell? VJ Sheesh.

are they in your life? not the ones you think they 'look illegal'?

and no.. I did my paperwork the legal way.. I am proud of myself for doing it that way, adn I feel good, I don't need to feel bad because some dude jumped the fence and omg didn't have to wait OOHH 6 months!! Oh 1 year.. if you wanna do it the right way, there's a price to pay.. besides, I don't know why people think doing it the illegal way is living like a rockstar.. that's a lie I dunno where they got from

Edited November 13, 2007 by pedroh

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

This was a great original post, with a valid and underrepresented POV.

And then Gupt said this:

I think one of the reasons this issue resonates with people so much is because they see it. What they see is a sudden and widespread change in the nature of their communities and like all change, this change is frightening. They may dress it up in noble terms (like 'they broke the law') but IMHO it's really about their communities changing in a manner they do not want - and did not ask for. It's racism, but it's more. It's about being cut out of the decision making process by the elites. They decided our communities would be the way our communities are turning out to be, we didn't get to decide that. So while the racism element does exist (they are a 'visible' minority), the larger issue really is of control. Who controls our communities, and by extension our destinies? Do we? Or do the powers that be?

This issue has the potential to be a real populist firestorm.

And that was a really good point. And then what the hell happened to the discussion? I want to have the discussion that comes from that post. Even if you take out the word "racism" from the equation, it's still really interesting to look at whether or not this is about powerlessness. I'd like to know if anyone on VJ feels that way. I've certainly seen some posters say that in the past.

I don’t know about the US – but that’s a pretty accurate summary of what happened in UK. There was a big hoo-ha a few years ago about East European asylum seekers (basically migrants who left the former Yugoslavia after the war) “abusing the system”, flooding into our towns and cities and having “no respect for our laws” etc.

Essentially what happened was that the UK Home Office would grant these people temporary accommodation, putting them up in hotels and B&B’s around the country. The result was that large concentrations of these people were sent to a small number of specific towns in the South of England (including my benighted hometown) and put up in hotels and b&b’s, while their cases were under review.

In a way the reaction towards Hispanic migrants isn’t too dissimilar from what happened in England – there was an inevitable negative reaction from members of the public – some reasonable, a lot not (I even got flyers and emails at my work telling me to look out for ATM scams involving “East European types”, more or less suggesting that you better keep looking over your shoulder at the ATM, lest you be mugged).

While you kind of expect people’s reaction to focus on the visible aspect of the problem (i.e. the migrants themselves), no-one really seemed to put the same energy into holding the government to account. I think a lot of people were very much caught by surprise by the ethnic and demographic makeup of their towns could change almost overnight, and that they were basically stuck between a policy cooked up by the Home Office and enacted by the local authorities (I believe in return for some sort of financial grants) without their views being considered at all.

As I say – bigotry in this instance was really inevitable; and while I certainly wouldn’t justify any of it – I think the govt is really to blame for a lot of the negativity. So yes – I’d certainly powerlessness has a lot to do with it.

I think there's a pretty strong parallel between what happened in the UK on a local level, and what is happening in the US on the national stage.

[no name 1]

are they in your life? not the ones you think they 'lool illegal'?

Yes, they are Pedroh. Not by choice, but they are.

[no name 1]

In a way the reaction towards Hispanic migrants isn’t too dissimilar from what happened in England – there was an inevitable negative reaction from members of the public – some reasonable, a lot not (I even got flyers and emails at my work telling me to look out for ATM scams involving “East European types”, more or less suggesting that you better keep looking over your shoulder at the ATM, lest you be mugged).

The ATM scam is a very real threat in the UK, by Eastern Euros or otherwise.

[pedroh 21]

are they in your life? not the ones you think they 'lool illegal'?

Yes, they are Pedroh. Not by choice, but they are.

and what have they done to you besides 'increasing insurance premiums' and 'draining taxes'?? I mean, welfare crackheads do that too, what's the difference

[no name 1]

are they in your life? not the ones you think they 'lool illegal'?

Yes, they are Pedroh. Not by choice, but they are.

and what have they done to you besides 'increasing insurance premiums' and 'draining taxes'?? I mean, welfare crackheads do that too, what's the difference

They are USCs.