How much longer can we 'overshoot'?

[pedroh 21]

Our population is consuming about 30% more trees, fish and fossil fuels than the planet can regenerate. How big a hole can we dig before we can't get out of it? Kai Ryssdal talks with Jared Diamond, a geography professor at UCLA.

KAI RYSSDAL: There's a technical term for what we're doing as we eat, shop, drive and go about our daily lives. The word is "overshoot" -- when a population uses up resources faster than they can be replaced.

Today, we're consuming about 30 percent more trees, fish and fossil fuels than the planet can regenerate. We can run a deficit like this for a little while, but there are limits to how big a hole we can dig before it gets too deep to get out of.

To help understand those limits we spoke with Jared Diamond. He's a professor of geography at the University of California, Los Angeles. You might know him better though his books -- Collapse, among others. When we talked, I asked him whether we've overshot our resources already:

Jared Diamond: Of course we are in overshoot and everybody knows that we are in overshoot -- and we are overshooting the things that people talk most about. First thing we're running out of is oil, and everybody knows it. Second thing we're running out of is water. Something like 70 percent of the fresh water in the world is already utilized. Topsoil -- we're exploiting it and it's running off into the ocean. We've already exhausted something like maybe half of the topsoil that was originally in the Great Plains. And then fish and forests...

You can listen to the entire interview here:

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display...consumed1_pm_3/

I thought that the answer to all of the world's woes was to open our borders and let everybody immigrate to the USA. I thought the USA has enough abundance to support the entire world. So what's up with this "overshoot" sh*t? Say it isn't so!

The key word is overconsumption, brother. We consume more natural resources today, per capita then we did 40 years ago.

So...how does mass uncontrolled immigration (legal & illegal) help the situation here in the good ol' USA? It's about like throwing more gasoline on an already raging fire. Why go there? Is it for the empathy and compassion orgasm? What happens after you get your nut? Do you pin all your hopes on science and technology's ability to pull our fat out of the fire? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

I really see no benefit to detrimental policies that in reality just benefits the few at the expense of most of the American people. I stopped worrying about saving the world a long time ago.

but the descendants of immigrants are also american people.. why are you trying to separate them from the 'real americans'.. so.. it's not completely an immigration problem..

[peejay 327]

Our population is consuming about 30% more trees, fish and fossil fuels than the planet can regenerate. How big a hole can we dig before we can't get out of it? Kai Ryssdal talks with Jared Diamond, a geography professor at UCLA.

KAI RYSSDAL: There's a technical term for what we're doing as we eat, shop, drive and go about our daily lives. The word is "overshoot" -- when a population uses up resources faster than they can be replaced.

Today, we're consuming about 30 percent more trees, fish and fossil fuels than the planet can regenerate. We can run a deficit like this for a little while, but there are limits to how big a hole we can dig before it gets too deep to get out of.

To help understand those limits we spoke with Jared Diamond. He's a professor of geography at the University of California, Los Angeles. You might know him better though his books -- Collapse, among others. When we talked, I asked him whether we've overshot our resources already:

Jared Diamond: Of course we are in overshoot and everybody knows that we are in overshoot -- and we are overshooting the things that people talk most about. First thing we're running out of is oil, and everybody knows it. Second thing we're running out of is water. Something like 70 percent of the fresh water in the world is already utilized. Topsoil -- we're exploiting it and it's running off into the ocean. We've already exhausted something like maybe half of the topsoil that was originally in the Great Plains. And then fish and forests...

You can listen to the entire interview here:

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display...consumed1_pm_3/

I thought that the answer to all of the world's woes was to open our borders and let everybody immigrate to the USA. I thought the USA has enough abundance to support the entire world. So what's up with this "overshoot" sh*t? Say it isn't so!

The key word is overconsumption, brother. We consume more natural resources today, per capita then we did 40 years ago.

So...how does mass uncontrolled immigration (legal & illegal) help the situation here in the good ol' USA? It's about like throwing more gasoline on an already raging fire. Why go there? Is it for the empathy and compassion orgasm? What happens after you get your nut? Do you pin all your hopes on science and technology's ability to pull our fat out of the fire? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

I really see no benefit to detrimental policies that in reality just benefits the few at the expense of most of the American people. I stopped worrying about saving the world a long time ago.

but the descendants of immigrants are also american people.. why are you trying to separate them from the 'real americans'.. so.. it's not completely an immigration problem..

It is when when American policies import millions of people (or lets illegal aliens import themselves) that make millions of other people in expotentially larger and larger numbers. Unlike Mexico, we can control our population and our destiny because it is mostly from an external source in recent times. Mexico has repeatedly doubled its population on average every 25 years. So that is an internal source. Mexico is not the only country in the world that does this.

If that is the path Mexico (and other places in the world) wish to take...groovy for them. Party on. The American people can decide if they want to buy into or not. We do not want it imposed on us by government policy that most of the American people do not buy in to.

BTW...20 million illegal aliens are not "real Americans". Although some on VJ think (and wish) they are.

I'm not against immigration in reasonable numbers, but mass uncontrolled immigration as it has been implemented in the last 30 years is not sustainable forever. It is for the American people to decide, not corporations, foreign countries, or the legal / illegal immigrants themselves.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I really see no benefit to detrimental policies that in reality just benefits the few at the expense of most of the American people. I stopped worrying about saving the world a long time ago.

Overshooting and overconsumption is a global issue, peejay. There was an article just the other day that said the smoke from China's coal buring plants is reaching the U.S.. No country is an island, sealed off from the rest of the world. Whether we like it or not, we are immersed in a global economy with increasing interdependence on one another, not only for economic reasons, but for natural resources as well. While some people are concerned about population growth as an issue, I think there are far more concrete issues regarding sustainability than that. Population trends tend to level off in areas where economic prosperity exist.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Woah.

[peejay 327]

I really see no benefit to detrimental policies that in reality just benefits the few at the expense of most of the American people. I stopped worrying about saving the world a long time ago.

Overshooting and overconsumption is a global issue, peejay. There was an article just the other day that said the smoke from China's coal buring plants is reaching the U.S.. No country is an island, sealed off from the rest of the world. Whether we like it or not, we are immersed in a global economy with increasing interdependence on one another, not only for economic reasons, but for natural resources as well. While some people are concerned about population growth as an issue, I think there are far more concrete issues regarding sustainability than that. Population trends tend to level off in areas where economic prosperity exist.

Seeing that the graph is copywrited in 1996, it is pretty accurate in that our population is now at 300 million...mostly through immigration policies (or lack thereof). When I see published reports from reliable sources that 1/6 of the Houston population that consists of illegal aliens contributes to 66% of the births in Houston's hospitals, it kind of turns on a light bulb in my brain. The fact is, it confirms what I actually see going on in the city I grew up in. As I said...why go there? I find it ridiculous that people on this forum actually argue whether we should control our borders and the people that come into our country. This isn't 1800 to 1920 America. This is modern America which is a modern industrialized welfare state. Importing mass poverty is not in the best interests of the vast majority of Americans. But I'm sure the corporations and those that control the vast majority of the wealth think it is great. Life on the plantation is wonderful if you own the plantation. But it is not sustainable.

[Jasman0717 9]

I think we are pretty much screwed at this point

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I really see no benefit to detrimental policies that in reality just benefits the few at the expense of most of the American people. I stopped worrying about saving the world a long time ago.

Overshooting and overconsumption is a global issue, peejay. There was an article just the other day that said the smoke from China's coal buring plants is reaching the U.S.. No country is an island, sealed off from the rest of the world. Whether we like it or not, we are immersed in a global economy with increasing interdependence on one another, not only for economic reasons, but for natural resources as well. While some people are concerned about population growth as an issue, I think there are far more concrete issues regarding sustainability than that. Population trends tend to level off in areas where economic prosperity exist.

Seeing that the graph is copywrited in 1996, it is pretty accurate in that our population is now at 300 million...mostly through immigration policies (or lack thereof). When I see published reports from reliable sources that 1/6 of the Houston population that consists of illegal aliens contributes to 66% of the births in Houston's hospitals, it kind of turns on a light bulb in my brain. The fact is, it confirms what I actually see going on in the city I grew up in. As I said...why go there? I find it ridiculous that people on this forum actually argue whether we should control our borders and the people that come into our country. This isn't 1800 to 1920 America. This is modern America which is a modern industrialized welfare state. Importing mass poverty is not in the best interests of the vast majority of Americans. But I'm sure the corporations and those that control the vast majority of the wealth think it is great. Life on the plantation is wonderful if you own the plantation. But it is not sustainable.

It's a mixed bag really. On one hand, we're already benefitting from a global economy where most of our imported goods are coming from places like China where labor is cheap. I don't think you can bring the bull back in the closet once you let 'em out, unless you think the U.S. is prepared to cut off most of its economic ties with other countries and start taking care of our own long term, sustainable interests.

I've been saying all along and it was part of the promise of the free trade agreements - if we structure trade relations with South America that are fair to all players, their economies would improve, and along with economic improvement birth rates would level off, jobs growth would happen, etc.

Seriously, peejay, we've got a lot of serious economic issues facing us right now that have nothing to do with our current immigration issues - skyrocket oil prices combined with a greater demand per capita for oil, a falling dollar, a hopeless quagmire in Iraq and Afghanistan that is costing us billions of dollars every month, a fragile relationship with China, etc, etc. Whoever is elected our next president is going to have their hands full - I'm hoping that they will invest in future technology, get us back to being a producing nation, rather than a nation than just consumes like gluttonous pigs.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

It's all good. Last time I checked the super Walmart was fully stocked.