Guns in the USA

[Kevin and 10]

Officers in this area have been going to a larger caliber due to the Methamphitimine problem. The county I live has one of the worst meth problems in the state. I think its like 40% of those in county jail are meth addicts.

IIRC- SOF in Afganistan want to go back to the .45 because the 9mm wasn't stopping taliban forces that were chewing khat.

-FBI shoot out in Florida were offciers realized that .38 special and 9mm didn't cut it.

-North Hollywood bank robbery

No offense, but without some comprehensive study I have difficulty in believing that a .38 caliber bullet wouldn't stop anyone dead in their tracks.

9mm was the standard for law enforcement for a long time.

BTW, something that I just read - a 50% hit ratio is not uncommon among law enforcement. Perhaps accuracy has more to do with the issue than the caliber of the weapon?

None taken. I don't think many people would volunteer to be part of ta study showning the effects of taking bullet hits.

There is data from real encounters.

9mm and .38 was standard until the 1986 Miami shoot out. They realized it was under powered. Suspects took several shoots and wern't put down.

Immediately after being forced off the road, Platt began firing his Mini-14 from the car, while Matix fired a single round from a shotgun. Matix was soon hit twice by the agents, and he was apparently knocked unconscious. He fired no more shots throughout the battle. Platt, however, had already injured two agents with the rifle.

Platt climbed out a car window, and was hit several times, yet he continued fighting, now firing a revolver. He also continued to use the rifle, despite injuries to his right hand and arm, and caused agents more injuries, including a shot to the neck.

Military-trained, Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they (so far uninjured) were using for cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing the rifle. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot another agent in the groin, and then killed Dove with two shots to the head. Platt himself had already been hit six times at this point.

Platt entered Grogan and Dove's car, apparently attempting escape. He was joined by Matix, who had regained consciousness and had crawled unseen to Platt's position.

The fight was finally ended by special agent Edmundo Mireles, who, despite being seriously injured during the gunfight (his left arm was totally disabled after being struck by bullets from Platt's rifle), overcame this injury. Agent Mireles used his uninjured arm to cycle his pump shotgun one-handed and fire repeated rounds at the vehicle's driver and passenger compartment, which prevented the suspects from leaving the scene. When his shotgun rounds were exhausted, Mireles managed to rise to his feet, draw his service revolver, and advance toward the vehicle, where he killed both Matix and Platt at near point-blank range.

Toxicology tests showed that the astounding abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gun shot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were completely drug- and alcohol-free at the time of their deaths.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Kevin and Tuyen

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Officers in this area have been going to a larger caliber due to the Methamphitimine problem. The county I live has one of the worst meth problems in the state. I think its like 40% of those in county jail are meth addicts.

IIRC- SOF in Afganistan want to go back to the .45 because the 9mm wasn't stopping taliban forces that were chewing khat.

-FBI shoot out in Florida were offciers realized that .38 special and 9mm didn't cut it.

-North Hollywood bank robbery

No offense, but without some comprehensive study I have difficulty in believing that a .38 caliber bullet wouldn't stop anyone dead in their tracks.

9mm was the standard for law enforcement for a long time.

BTW, something that I just read - a 50% hit ratio is not uncommon among law enforcement. Perhaps accuracy has more to do with the issue than the caliber of the weapon?

None taken. I don't think many people would volunteer to be part of ta study showning the effects of taking bullet hits.

There is data from real encounters.

9mm and .38 was standard until the 1986 Miami shoot out. They realized it was under powered. Suspects took several shoots and wern't put down.

Immediately after being forced off the road, Platt began firing his Mini-14 from the car, while Matix fired a single round from a shotgun. Matix was soon hit twice by the agents, and he was apparently knocked unconscious. He fired no more shots throughout the battle. Platt, however, had already injured two agents with the rifle.

Platt climbed out a car window, and was hit several times, yet he continued fighting, now firing a revolver. He also continued to use the rifle, despite injuries to his right hand and arm, and caused agents more injuries, including a shot to the neck.

Military-trained, Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they (so far uninjured) were using for cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing the rifle. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot another agent in the groin, and then killed Dove with two shots to the head. Platt himself had already been hit six times at this point.

Platt entered Grogan and Dove's car, apparently attempting escape. He was joined by Matix, who had regained consciousness and had crawled unseen to Platt's position.

The fight was finally ended by special agent Edmundo Mireles, who, despite being seriously injured during the gunfight (his left arm was totally disabled after being struck by bullets from Platt's rifle), overcame this injury. Agent Mireles used his uninjured arm to cycle his pump shotgun one-handed and fire repeated rounds at the vehicle's driver and passenger compartment, which prevented the suspects from leaving the scene. When his shotgun rounds were exhausted, Mireles managed to rise to his feet, draw his service revolver, and advance toward the vehicle, where he killed both Matix and Platt at near point-blank range.

Toxicology tests showed that the astounding abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gun shot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were completely drug- and alcohol-free at the time of their deaths.

Interesting.

I'm still thinking of a 9mm for a concealed weapon choice.

One of my colleagues says his favorite is the Sig Sauer P229.

[Ban Hammer 13,252]

Interesting.

I'm still thinking of a 9mm for a concealed weapon choice.

One of my colleagues says his favorite is the Sig Sauer P229.

imo if it don't start with a 4, you're wasting your time

[Scott & Lai 12]

Officers in this area have been going to a larger caliber due to the Methamphitimine problem. The county I live has one of the worst meth problems in the state. I think its like 40% of those in county jail are meth addicts.

IIRC- SOF in Afganistan want to go back to the .45 because the 9mm wasn't stopping taliban forces that were chewing khat.

-FBI shoot out in Florida were offciers realized that .38 special and 9mm didn't cut it.

-North Hollywood bank robbery

No offense, but without some comprehensive study I have difficulty in believing that a .38 caliber bullet wouldn't stop anyone dead in their tracks.

9mm was the standard for law enforcement for a long time.

BTW, something that I just read - a 50% hit ratio is not uncommon among law enforcement. Perhaps accuracy has more to do with the issue than the caliber of the weapon?

9mms and .38s, in spite of what you might see in movies/tv, generally don't knock people down with the force of impact. They kill by causing blood-loss and organ damage, but since they don't pack much "punch", they won't stop someone who is charging at you; so he has time to harm you before succombing to blood loss. A .45, on the other hand, besides doing much more damage, does pack a powerful punch, so is far more likely to stop an attacker in his tracks.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Seems like everyone would be better off packing a sawed-off shotgun, or one of those shotgun pistols.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Shoulder-fired missiles for everybody!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Officers in this area have been going to a larger caliber due to the Methamphitimine problem. The county I live has one of the worst meth problems in the state. I think its like 40% of those in county jail are meth addicts.

IIRC- SOF in Afganistan want to go back to the .45 because the 9mm wasn't stopping taliban forces that were chewing khat.

-FBI shoot out in Florida were offciers realized that .38 special and 9mm didn't cut it.

-North Hollywood bank robbery

No offense, but without some comprehensive study I have difficulty in believing that a .38 caliber bullet wouldn't stop anyone dead in their tracks.

9mm was the standard for law enforcement for a long time.

BTW, something that I just read - a 50% hit ratio is not uncommon among law enforcement. Perhaps accuracy has more to do with the issue than the caliber of the weapon?

9mms and .38s, in spite of what you might see in movies/tv, generally don't knock people down with the force of impact. They kill by causing blood-loss and organ damage, but since they don't pack much "punch", they won't stop someone who is charging at you; so he has time to harm you before succombing to blood loss. A .45, on the other hand, besides doing much more damage, does pack a powerful punch, so is far more likely to stop an attacker in his tracks.

I suppose it depends on how you see defending yourself or others from an attacker. If the attacker has a fully automatic rifle as an example, you haven't got much of chance, especially if it is a ranged attack. It really boils down to self defense and any self defense expert will say that the best and most reliable method is using no weapon at all other than your body. I understand the argument that a larger caliber gun will potentially do more damage to a perpetrator, but lets not forget that in terms of the law, you can't simply blow away somebody because they lunge at you. If they are unarmed you'd be using excessive force.

I want a small enough gun that I can conceal completely so that in the rare event that I may need to use a gun, it's there and unknown to the perpetrator. It may not be the most powerful force to use, but I want it to be light enough for easier aim and accurate enough to hit its target, given the reality that no posession of a handgun is a foolproof way to protect myself.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[one...two...tree 2,762]

GRAND PRIZE WINNER: SIG SAUER P229

Reliable and deadly accurate, it is the handgun of choice for the FBI, the DEA and the Secret Service to name a few; and it has just been awarded contracts from the Coast Guard and Homeland Security. Law enforcement's baby: the SIG SAUER P229.

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,1463...ch_SIG,,00.html

[SteveLaura 0]

Two respondents own guns for other reasons, possibly to hold up a liquor store.

that's reaching. i'm one of those who made that selection for the reason of war trophies - i'm in possession of my dad's war trophies from the vietnam war. so let's not cloud the issue with emotionalism.

Well, I thought it was funny, at least...

*slopes off*

[Ban Hammer 13,252]

GRAND PRIZE WINNER: SIG SAUER P229

Reliable and deadly accurate, it is the handgun of choice for the FBI, the DEA and the Secret Service to name a few; and it has just been awarded contracts from the Coast Guard and Homeland Security. Law enforcement's baby: the SIG SAUER P229.

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,1463...ch_SIG,,00.html

comes in various calibers, get the 40 SW

as jinky has a smaller hand than you, make sure she can handle it if needed. a double stack magazine may make it too big for her hands.

[Ban Hammer 13,252]

I suppose it depends on how you see defending yourself or others from an attacker. If the attacker has a fully automatic rifle as an example, you haven't got much of chance, especially if it is a ranged attack. It really boils down to self defense and any self defense expert will say that the best and most reliable method is using no weapon at all other than your body. I understand the argument that a larger caliber gun will potentially do more damage to a perpetrator, but lets not forget that in terms of the law, you can't simply blow away somebody because they lunge at you. If they are unarmed you'd be using excessive force.

I want a small enough gun that I can conceal completely so that in the rare event that I may need to use a gun, it's there and unknown to the perpetrator. It may not be the most powerful force to use, but I want it to be light enough for easier aim and accurate enough to hit its target, given the reality that no posession of a handgun is a foolproof way to protect myself.

oh where to start?

if the attacker has a fully auto rifle, and it is a ranged attack (over 50 yards) you'd be well advised to take cover. still not the point of concealed carry now is it, otherwise we'd all be carrying a 30-06 around huh? furthermore, someone playing sniper is far less common than someone using a shotgun or handgun to hold up a store, mug someone, and so on.

yes, a large caliber round will do more damage than a smaller caliber round, however, you also have to factor in how it might be viewed in a court of law if you have to empty your entire clip into some meth addict to stop them.

don't get too carried away about someone lunging at you either - wait until you've had your cch class before you make those kinds of statements. learn about the 21' rule.

the concept you stated above about a small enough gun is exactly what concealed carry is about. it's not concealed if a perp can see it.......

45's are much smaller than the 1911 of yesterday. look into one and you might just like what you see.

[Nessa 23]

I don't own one myself, but hubby does, so if what's mine is his and vice versa I guess I own a few

[Ban Hammer 13,252]

I don't own one myself, but hubby does, so if what's mine is his and vice versa I guess I own a few

[peejay 327]

I don't own handguns anymore. I sold my Ruger Super Single Six and Ruger Mark III years ago. I have contemplated getting a concealed carry permit from time to time, but haven't felt any pressing need to do it yet.

I have several rifles and shotguns I use for hunting. I was an avid hunter in my younger years, but have become more of a fisherman than a hunter as the years go by. I occassionally still go to the county shooting range to shoot trap with the shotguns.

I also collect obsolete military rifles and the military accessories issued with them. Stuff like Russian SKS, British Enfield, Swedish Mauser, German Mauser, etc. I go to the county shooting range and shoot them from time to time.

As far as home protection goes...I prefer my Mossberg 12 gauge pump shotgun with the 18 1/2" barrel and loaded with 00 buckshot.

In Texas, a guy like me has no problem buying whatever guns and ammunition are legally available for sale. I meet all the legal requirements laid out in state and Federal laws to buy and own guns in my state, county, and city.

[Kevin and 10]

Get what feels comfortable and get what you can handle. I'm not going to get a SW .500 or a Desert Eagle .50 AE for defense. My hands are too small and the recoil is ridiculous.