Closed Borders

[Jason-Sasha 1]

When I was a young boy, we lived in a house with a fully completed bombshelter in the back yard. The threat was certainly real enough for thousands and thousands of Americans to construct such bunkers in their own yard during the 60's.

[Danno 1,228]

As I have said before, it is a little far-fetched to be foreseeing a time in the near future where people are cut off from travel between the USA and the USSR... err I mean Russia.

However, I don't think you can rule anything out due to SOME people making money off our relationship now.

'Idealogy" always trumps money and as Russia assumes more and more industry under the wing of the Govt, that factor becomes more diminished.

Under Putin certain wealthy businessmen were jailed chased out of country and had their (ill-gotten) industries taken from them.

It is for this reason I say anything is possible.

These things usually take years to fully shift, when you see the country shifting, it would then be the time to start the process to get out.

It even took Years for Nazi germany to evolve into its full self, many Jews did see the coming storm and left homes and businesses. Others stayed at great cost.

[slim 1,530]

What's not being said here is the outside factors that will undoubtedly affect Russo-American relations more greatly than anything else - the third (and subsequent) country factor.

Who cares what's going on between Russia and the U.S. when China starts to engulf it's neighbors. And when Pakistan and India go at it, even if we (quietly) choose different sides to make money off of, we're still going to be holding hands on the White House lawn or in the halls of the Kremlin when we "attempt" peace for the sake of all humanity.

There's way more at stake than just keeping the peace. Both of our nations are so greedy, it's almost impossible for an escalation of tensions to reach proportions where nationals married to foreigners would be barred re-entry.

[Nancy2015 2]

I have one word for it. Paranoia. My husband is one of those older generation Americans with memories of bomb shelters and Cold War and all that stuff, and quite frankly, this was the major thing that kept driving us apart. Some people just can't relax.

[mox 298]

I have one word for it. Paranoia. My husband is one of those older generation Americans with memories of bomb shelters and Cold War and all that stuff, and quite frankly, this was the major thing that kept driving us apart. Some people just can't relax.

I grew up during the Reagan era. It was a foregone conclusion that we were all going to die in a nuclear exchange. I mean, there wasn't really a doubt in anybody's mind, and I'm sure a majority of Russians felt that way too. My father started to turn a root cellar into a bomb shelter but never finished the project. I think a lot of us felt like it was probably better to die during the initial exchange than to try to live in a post-nuclear holocaust. Obviously we didn't all walk around with long faces and doom and gloom, but it's really hard for people who didn't live through that era to understand that we really did think that a nuclear exchange between the US and USSR was an inevitability. I still wonder how it never happened. I'm convinced that it had very little to do with Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev, and a lot to do with heroes like Stanislav Petrov.

I can't imagine what it would be about that era that's driving you and your husband apart, unless of course you're an unapologetic Communist, and then yeah, I can see what his problem might be. And the reason I say that is because while we despised the Soviet government (and the feeling was mutual), we loved the people of the Soviet Union. And while both nations were fiercely competitive (I still get teary-eyed over the Miracle On Ice) we also felt a certain kinship with them. If for nothing else than we knew that they'd have to go through the same mutual assured destruction scenario that we were going to have to go through ourselves.

Anyway, I hate to sound like my father, but "you kids" don't know how good you've got it with your terrorism and global warming! Back in my day we didn't worry about airplanes flying into buildings. We worried about global thermonuclear war. While we walked 10 miles to school in the snow. Uphill. Both ways. ...

[Danno 1,228]

Your comments about the "certainty of a nuclear exchange" and how few voices were available to add calm is one reason, I am 80% certain in a decade we will be amazed the whole world (actually the .. just the western world) were certain that Global warming was going to destroy us all.

For some reason the voices of doom and gloom always seem to have the microphone.

My G_d, could you imagine if the Global warming experts were around during the years of the Dust bowl era, they would have charged us all a ton of money (taxes) implemented their plans and then took all the credit with Nobel prizes and magazine covers a few years later after the weather normalized.

[mox 298]

Hmmm...I don't think you understand. The "voices of doom and gloom" had very good reason to be doomy and gloomy, because the threat was VERY real. From the 50's to the early 90's, the world was literally a heartbeat away from a nuclear exchange. The fact that it didn't happen doesn't mean that the threat was over-hyped or manufactured, it means that we got very very lucky and that a few brave men like Stanislav Petrov kept cool heads.

As far as global warming goes, I work in a weather and oceanography facility in Northern California. I'm not a climatologist, but I work with some of the brightest climatologists in the world, and I can tell you that they're convinced that global warming is real, and they have the numbers to prove it. These aren't a bunch of liberal hippies out hugging trees. They work for the Department of Defense.

[Nancy2015 2]

and I'm sure a majority of Russians felt that way too.

Nope, they didn't.

I can't imagine what it would be about that era that's driving you and your husband apart, unless of course you're an unapologetic Communist,

You do understand that communism and the Soviet system are not the same thing, don't you?

Well, you are obviously a lot older than me, so it's very hard to relate. It may seem at first that generation gap is easy to overcome, but it's not.

[mox 298]

and I'm sure a majority of Russians felt that way too.

Nope, they didn't.

I bet if you talked with relatives who grew up in the 80's they'd tell you differently. I spent much of the late 80's and early 90's in the Navy in a job where I...er..."studied" the Russians a lot. I'd never tell you that I know your people better than you do, but from my vantage point the average Russian and the average American had a lot in common when it came to cold war fears.

You do understand that communism and the Soviet system are not the same thing, don't you?

Yes.

Edited November 14, 2007 by moxcamel

[Nancy2015 2]

and I'm sure a majority of Russians felt that way too.

Nope, they didn't.

I bet if you talked with relatives who grew up in the 80's they'd tell you differently. I spent much of the late 80's and early 90's in the Navy in a job where I...er..."studied" the Russians a lot. I'd never tell you that I know your people better than you do, but from my vantage point the average Russian and the average American had a lot in common when it came to cold war fears.

My brother-in-law did the same, but in the Air Force.

Americans tend to take things more seriously, in my opinion. We didn't get half as paranoid after all our terrorist attacks as you got after 9/11. I may be full of it, but it's my impression. It can be wrong, and solid arguments against it may very well convince me otherwise.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Sid and Nancy

[mox 298]

Americans tend to take things more seriously, in my opinion. We didn't get half as paranoid after all our terrorist attacks as you got after 9/11. I may be full of it, but it's my impression. It can be wrong, and solid arguments against it may very well convince me otherwise.

No, I think you're right. Americans do tend to overreact, and our reactions over 9/11 are a perfect (and shameful) example.

Russians (like I need to tell you this ) tend to be more stoic in the way they handle a situation. You see what needs to be done and you do it, even if what you need to do is simply accept it and make due the best you can. A lot of this has to do with the fact that Russians have had to face just about every kind of adversity there is, and that's just over the last hundred or so years. The Russian Revolution, for example, is just something we have nothing to compare to. Americans have been very fortunate. We have never really had to face true adversity. So we're not very good at handling adversity, and a lot of times we are childish and do silly things like invade the wrong country. I wish we were better at handling adversity, but we're not.

[russ 1]

The Russian Revolution, for example, is just something we have nothing to compare to. Americans have been very fortunate. We have never really had to face true adversity.

There was this thing called the "American Revolution."

And the American Civil War, the bloodiest war the US has ever seen, which was not so different.

[mox 298]

The Russian Revolution, for example, is just something we have nothing to compare to. Americans have been very fortunate. We have never really had to face true adversity.

There was this thing called the "American Revolution."

And the American Civil War, the bloodiest war the US has ever seen, which was not so different.

Agreed but we have no "institutional" memory of either of these wars. For most Americans the Civil War is all about the Gettysburg Address (which most Americans have never read or even know what it's about) and Gone with the Wind. I read a survey sometime back where 70% of responding high school kids believed George Washington fought in the Civil War. That's sad.

For sheer bloodiness, the Russian Revolution probably beats the American Revolution and the American Civil War combined and several times over. And that's just one example of Russian upheaval. We've never had to experience the likes of World War I, nor the sheer death toll in World War II. The Soviet Union lost over 20 million people in WW2. The United States lost just over 400,000. Post WW2 was almost as bloody. Nobody knows how many died to Stalin, but it was in the millions. It could in fact be worse than the Nazi Holocaust.

As I say, we have nothing to compare this sheer loss of humanity to. What's more, the Russians study it from an early age. (this may be less true these days, which would be a shame) There is a clear institutional history, a connectedness to their past that we lack, and I think that's to our detriment. We simply don't know how to deal with adversity when it comes our way, and so we overreact because most Americans have nothing to compare it to.

[russ 1]

Agreed but we have no "institutional" memory of either of these wars. For most Americans the Civil War is all about the Gettysburg Address (which most Americans have never read or even know what it's about) and Gone with the Wind. I read a survey sometime back where 70% of responding high school kids believed George Washington fought in the Civil War. That's sad.

Over 500,000 died during the civil war, it was hardly a trivial event.

The American Revolution was similar to the Russian one, we both had a King, and both got rid of him. Our new government just lasted a bit longer.

For sheer bloodiness, the Russian Revolution probably beats the American Revolution and the American Civil War combined and several times over. And that's just one example of Russian upheaval. We've never had to experience the likes of World War I,

Again, I would have to disagree. The 116,000 Americans who died during WWI would probably disagree as well. The Russians avoided the worst of it, as the government collapsed during the war. Most Russian deaths were from the revolution that began during the war.

The British, French, and German losses during the Great War were truly disgusting. I've been to many of the WWI battlefields. Entire generations of young men were wiped out in Canada, New Zealand and Australia fighting this war.

Canadians still certainly remember it, probably moreso than WWII. I have a red poppy for Nov 11th.

nor the sheer death toll in World War II. The Soviet Union lost over 20 million people in WW2. The United States lost just over 400,000. Post WW2 was almost as bloody. Nobody knows how many died to Stalin, but it was in the millions. It could in fact be worse than the Nazi Holocaust.

Actually the Soviet Union lost over 20 million before WWII even started. By almost every academic tally, Stalin killed far more Russians than Hitler did. (I don't think either of them were very nice people.)

After WWII was not as bloody. After Stalin's death, the purges ended almost completely.

As I say, we have nothing to compare this sheer loss of humanity to. What's more, the Russians study it from an early age. (this may be less true these days, which would be a shame) There is a clear institutional history, a connectedness to their past that we lack, and I think that's to our detriment. We simply don't know how to deal with adversity when it comes our way, and so we overreact because most Americans have nothing to compare it to.

History in Russia has still largely been whitewashed and altered. Many Russians would not believe that the US and UK even fought in World War II. Much of the destruction in the Soviet Union was a result of the poor planning and poor strategy of the Soviets at the beginning of the war. Remember, the Soviets were an aggressor in this war (they annexed Finland and Poland, which both caused great losses on thier own, and sped up the German offensive).

Still a sore spot with my (Finnish) family.

[Jasman0717 9]

I would hope we are done with the "cold war" era