U.S. citizen arrested under state's new anti-illegal immigrant law, Hispanic advocate says

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Heartless one? I don't know, I just don't know how one can be certain how one would react without having been faced with that particular circumstance. I am prepared to give those in these type of situations the benefit of the doubt, meaning, should they choose to continue the relationship, I am not going to start pointing fingers and condemn them out of hand.

Good, you don't want to be the first to point fingers and condemn.

I'm don't know how one can't be certain how they would react.

I'll let you in on a secret. When I was 15, I was engaged by my parents to a young man who was absolutely wonderful, came from a good family, had a great education, was the most gentle soul you could ever meet. I grew to love him very much. One day, about 2 years into our engagement, he told me a deep dark secret about himself about something he had done to another girl that rocked me to my core. I said nothing to anyone and kept his secret, but knew that I could never marry him after that. Although I still adored him, I let him go and married a different man at the age of 18. We have not spoken in decades, but I still keep tabs on his life and career.

So, I know how I would react. Been there, done that.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[no name 1]

Exactly - I don't think its unrealistic that a prospective spouse could be in the dark about their fiance/e's prior criminal history from 20 years ago, or a previous visa overstay when they were just out of college, or prior drug habit - I can totally see how it might not come up much (or at all) while you're dating the person - until you start researching the visa application process. By then you're already committed - emotionally and otherwise. It might make things more difficult, complicated, or require the services of a lawyer - but as you say could I stifle a relationship, I'm not sure - Most likely not.

For one thing I tend to regard what's past as past - and that my view on things isn't quite as black and white as what is written down in say immigration or criminal law.

But I thought this whole discussion was about someone being an illegal NOW - not an offense committed 10 years ago.....???

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Why must one be labeled paranoid or oversensitive if they choose to avoid certain types of people as marriage partners?

What does that make those who do not choose to avoid to marry less than preferable types? Heroic? I think not.

Not what I mean't exactly - to clarify: the paranoid and oversensitive I was referring to are the ones who are/have thrown up a stink whenever someone interprets their posts beyond the exact words and phrasiology they chose to write.

As far as it goes "certain types of people" works as a generality, not when you apply it to specific cases. Again would you judge a prospective spouse as an "undesirable" simply because you learn about something from their past that might, quite plausibly, have never come up when you were dating?

Leaving aside our knowledge of having been through this immigration process - how are you supposed to know whether your spouses overstay from years ago is a problem, they might not even realise it themselves. Does this mean they should turn their back on the relationship because of it? I think I can say with confidence that many people on this forum wouldn't and didn't.

ooh, name calling, how mature!

[no name 1]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Sorry ...

I'll be more basic ... and make this comment for anyone ... legal or not

I ask and expect truthful answers. I expect to be asked and will give truthful answers. At any time in the process either party can make the decision based on their morals and judgements to say ... Stop ... No more.

I look at the person ... I want to know ... and have stopped relationships or avoided them because there was something showing that I didn't want in my life.

Again - what if the question doesn't occur to you, or at the least - if it simply doesn't come up until the time you're already emotionally committed and have made the decision to marry? When my fiancee and I decided to get married we didn't know diddly squat about this process outside of very general terminology. Fortunately for me I don't have a criminal record or any prior overstay issues - but let me ask you this - how would you know at the time you decided to get married if anything like that in your SO's past could be a problem for them in applying for immigration benefits?

Its been said on VJ many times that people who haven't gone through this process don't understand what is involved - still we've all been there at one time or another. Did you really research the immigration process in detail before you decided to get married? Kudos to you if you did - but I think you'll find there are many folks out there who didn't and had to take it a step at a time.

I'd say there's a whole K-1 forum full of those who are/did. And a forum full of those who didn't (Effects of Major Family Changes on Immigration Benefits).

I have no problem answering though. My choices are, as I suspect a lot of people's, a mixture of emotional and rational thought. I am not aware that I have ever engaged in a relationship with an illegal immigrant, but then again, I am not sure that I would know because, quite simply, I have never screened my dates on the basis of whether they might be illegal immigrants or not.

Are they shallow dates then? Surely, 'where are you from', how did you end up here' comes up before the engagement....?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Exactly - I don't think its unrealistic that a prospective spouse could be in the dark about their fiance/e's prior criminal history from 20 years ago, or a previous visa overstay when they were just out of college, or prior drug habit - I can totally see how it might not come up much (or at all) while you're dating the person - until you start researching the visa application process. By then you're already committed - emotionally and otherwise. It might make things more difficult, complicated, or require the services of a lawyer - but as you say could I stifle a relationship, I'm not sure - Most likely not.

For one thing I tend to regard what's past as past - and that my view on things isn't quite as black and white as what is written down in say immigration or criminal law.

But I thought this whole discussion was about someone being an illegal NOW - not an offense committed 10 years ago.....???

Its a tangential issue, but not so far removed.

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Why must one be labeled paranoid or oversensitive if they choose to avoid certain types of people as marriage partners?

What does that make those who do not choose to avoid to marry less than preferable types? Heroic? I think not.

Not what I mean't exactly - to clarify: the paranoid and oversensitive I was referring to are the ones who are/have thrown up a stink whenever someone interprets their posts beyond the exact words and phrasiology they chose to write.

As far as it goes "certain types of people" works as a generality, not when you apply it to specific cases. Again would you judge a prospective spouse as an "undesirable" simply because you learn about something from their past that might, quite plausibly, have never come up when you were dating?

Leaving aside our knowledge of having been through this immigration process - how are you supposed to know whether your spouses overstay from years ago is a problem, they might not even realise it themselves. Does this mean they should turn their back on the relationship because of it? I think I can say with confidence that many people on this forum wouldn't and didn't.

ooh, name calling, how mature!

Must have missed the name-calling there as much as a general description of your hysterical behaviour. Regardless the discussion had moved on since then but I guess you need to inject your bit of melodrama.

Suggest its time for you to $hit or get off the pot

[no name 1]

I greatly appreciate you allowing me to answer for myself. I have no reason to look down on others for whom they marry. I have counseled my own children, nieces and nephews as to how to choose a life partner, and I'm satisfied that they have chosen to take my advice.

Marriage is serious business; it can't be all about emotion, but the part that is can't be left merely to chance. I can't allow myself to be totally vulnerable to another person without the kind of trust, honesty and openness that comes from having not only discussed their values and character, but having observed them. Actions speak louder than words. If I give myself over emotionally, financially, mentally, physically to another fallible human being, I can do that only when I can believe that that person will not intentionally harm me in return. I can't have that level of trust with someone who has a history of living as an illegal.

But that's just me.

Very well said ... me too

Me three! And to those who seem to think that means we are not emotionally invested, you are so very wrong.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Sorry ...

I'll be more basic ... and make this comment for anyone ... legal or not

I ask and expect truthful answers. I expect to be asked and will give truthful answers. At any time in the process either party can make the decision based on their morals and judgements to say ... Stop ... No more.

I look at the person ... I want to know ... and have stopped relationships or avoided them because there was something showing that I didn't want in my life.

Again - what if the question doesn't occur to you, or at the least - if it simply doesn't come up until the time you're already emotionally committed and have made the decision to marry? When my fiancee and I decided to get married we didn't know diddly squat about this process outside of very general terminology. Fortunately for me I don't have a criminal record or any prior overstay issues - but let me ask you this - how would you know at the time you decided to get married if anything like that in your SO's past could be a problem for them in applying for immigration benefits?

Its been said on VJ many times that people who haven't gone through this process don't understand what is involved - still we've all been there at one time or another. Did you really research the immigration process in detail before you decided to get married? Kudos to you if you did - but I think you'll find there are many folks out there who didn't and had to take it a step at a time.

I'd say there's a whole K-1 forum full of those who are/did. And a forum full of those who didn't (Effects of Major Family Changes on Immigration Benefits).

So what? To each his own - I'm not going to render judgement on someone else's situation and circumstances (and again for your benefit - I'm not saying you explictly are doing this. Because if I don't point this out you will probably say that I am).

[Peikko 1,575]

Indeed you hit it on the head Devilette, all my dates where so very shallow.

[no name 1]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Sorry ...

I'll be more basic ... and make this comment for anyone ... legal or not

I ask and expect truthful answers. I expect to be asked and will give truthful answers. At any time in the process either party can make the decision based on their morals and judgements to say ... Stop ... No more.

I look at the person ... I want to know ... and have stopped relationships or avoided them because there was something showing that I didn't want in my life.

Again - what if the question doesn't occur to you, or at the least - if it simply doesn't come up until the time you're already emotionally committed and have made the decision to marry? When my fiancee and I decided to get married we didn't know diddly squat about this process outside of very general terminology. Fortunately for me I don't have a criminal record or any prior overstay issues - but let me ask you this - how would you know at the time you decided to get married if anything like that in your SO's past could be a problem for them in applying for immigration benefits?

Its been said on VJ many times that people who haven't gone through this process don't understand what is involved - still we've all been there at one time or another. Did you really research the immigration process in detail before you decided to get married? Kudos to you if you did - but I think you'll find there are many folks out there who didn't and had to take it a step at a time.

I'd say there's a whole K-1 forum full of those who are/did. And a forum full of those who didn't (Effects of Major Family Changes on Immigration Benefits).

So what? To each his own - I'm not going to render judgement on someone else's situation and circumstances (and again for your benefit - I'm not saying you explictly are doing this. Because if I don't point this out you will probably say that I am).

You asked a question (in a public forum, after all), I replied. That's how VJ works!

And if you think people don't research getting married to a foreigner & all the legal ####### entailed, I think you are very far off the mark.

Edited November 9, 2007 by devilette

[natty bumppo 297]

Heartless one? I don't know, I just don't know how one can be certain how one would react without having been faced with that particular circumstance. I am prepared to give those in these type of situations the benefit of the doubt, meaning, should they choose to continue the relationship, I am not going to start pointing fingers and condemn them out of hand.

Good, you don't want to be the first to point fingers and condemn.

I'm don't know how one can't be certain how they would react.

I'll let you in on a secret. When I was 15, I was engaged by my parents to a young man who was absolutely wonderful, came from a good family, had a great education, was the most gentle soul you could ever meet. I grew to love him very much. One day, about 2 years into our engagement, he told me a deep dark secret about himself about something he had done to another girl that rocked me to my core. I said nothing to anyone and kept his secret, but knew that I could never marry him after that. Although I still adored him, I let him go and married a different man at the age of 18. We have not spoken in decades, but I still keep tabs on his life and career.

So, I know how I would react. Been there, done that.

Let's just say ... I've been there and done that too. Even so far as to terminate a previous marriage because of lies (infidelity not involved)

[no name 1]

Exactly - I don't think its unrealistic that a prospective spouse could be in the dark about their fiance/e's prior criminal history from 20 years ago, or a previous visa overstay when they were just out of college, or prior drug habit - I can totally see how it might not come up much (or at all) while you're dating the person - until you start researching the visa application process. By then you're already committed - emotionally and otherwise. It might make things more difficult, complicated, or require the services of a lawyer - but as you say could I stifle a relationship, I'm not sure - Most likely not.

For one thing I tend to regard what's past as past - and that my view on things isn't quite as black and white as what is written down in say immigration or criminal law.

But I thought this whole discussion was about someone being an illegal NOW - not an offense committed 10 years ago.....???

Its a tangential issue, but not so far removed.

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Why must one be labeled paranoid or oversensitive if they choose to avoid certain types of people as marriage partners?

What does that make those who do not choose to avoid to marry less than preferable types? Heroic? I think not.

Not what I mean't exactly - to clarify: the paranoid and oversensitive I was referring to are the ones who are/have thrown up a stink whenever someone interprets their posts beyond the exact words and phrasiology they chose to write.

As far as it goes "certain types of people" works as a generality, not when you apply it to specific cases. Again would you judge a prospective spouse as an "undesirable" simply because you learn about something from their past that might, quite plausibly, have never come up when you were dating?

Leaving aside our knowledge of having been through this immigration process - how are you supposed to know whether your spouses overstay from years ago is a problem, they might not even realise it themselves. Does this mean they should turn their back on the relationship because of it? I think I can say with confidence that many people on this forum wouldn't and didn't.

ooh, name calling, how mature!

Must have missed the name-calling there as much as a general description of your hysterical behaviour. Regardless the discussion had moved on since then but I guess you need to inject your bit of melodrama.

Suggest its time for you to $hit or get off the pot

Wow, so having a life makes me not able to reply a few hours later - to a very childish comment YOU made, very specifically about me, so deal.

Indeed you hit it on the head Devilette, all my dates where so very shallow.

Hey, you apparently never discussed anyone's background, etc, so maybe they were*.

*opinion, not fact

Edited November 9, 2007 by devilette

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You asked a question (in a public forum, after all), I replied. That's how VJ works!

And if you think people don't research getting married to a foreigner & all the legal ####### entailed, I think you are very far off the mark.

No I don't think that. I do think that some people get engaged without being fully aware of all the factors that could potentially complicate their petition, and I can see how that could easily happen. Again there's a whole forum of questions that speak to that - questions that the instructions on the forms and the USCIS website don't fully cover.

[no name 1]

You asked a question (in a public forum, after all), I replied. That's how VJ works!

And if you think people don't research getting married to a foreigner & all the legal ####### entailed, I think you are very far off the mark.

No I don't think that. I do think that some people get engaged without being fully aware of all the factors that could potentially complicate their petition, and I can see how that could easily happen. Again there's a whole forum of questions that speak to that - questions that the instructions on the forms and the USCIS website don't fully cover.

Exactly. You must miss those 'my journey is over' posts that pop up so often. Or the entire 'Divorce' forum.....

You (or PH) said something about researchign it all before getting married. Engagement & the K1 journey are a long way from marriage.

Edited November 9, 2007 by devilette

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Exactly - I don't think its unrealistic that a prospective spouse could be in the dark about their fiance/e's prior criminal history from 20 years ago, or a previous visa overstay when they were just out of college, or prior drug habit - I can totally see how it might not come up much (or at all) while you're dating the person - until you start researching the visa application process. By then you're already committed - emotionally and otherwise. It might make things more difficult, complicated, or require the services of a lawyer - but as you say could I stifle a relationship, I'm not sure - Most likely not.

For one thing I tend to regard what's past as past - and that my view on things isn't quite as black and white as what is written down in say immigration or criminal law.

But I thought this whole discussion was about someone being an illegal NOW - not an offense committed 10 years ago.....???

Its a tangential issue, but not so far removed.

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Why must one be labeled paranoid or oversensitive if they choose to avoid certain types of people as marriage partners?

What does that make those who do not choose to avoid to marry less than preferable types? Heroic? I think not.

Not what I mean't exactly - to clarify: the paranoid and oversensitive I was referring to are the ones who are/have thrown up a stink whenever someone interprets their posts beyond the exact words and phrasiology they chose to write.

As far as it goes "certain types of people" works as a generality, not when you apply it to specific cases. Again would you judge a prospective spouse as an "undesirable" simply because you learn about something from their past that might, quite plausibly, have never come up when you were dating?

Leaving aside our knowledge of having been through this immigration process - how are you supposed to know whether your spouses overstay from years ago is a problem, they might not even realise it themselves. Does this mean they should turn their back on the relationship because of it? I think I can say with confidence that many people on this forum wouldn't and didn't.

ooh, name calling, how mature!

Must have missed the name-calling there as much as a general description of your hysterical behaviour. Regardless the discussion had moved on since then but I guess you need to inject your bit of melodrama.

Suggest its time for you to $hit or get off the pot

Wow, so having a life makes me not able to reply a few hours later - to a very childish comment YOU made, very specifically about me, so deal.

Thanks Dev I feel well and truly chided

Feel free to go ahead and be scandalised by every single pos, which you seem intent on doing. Get your money's worth.

[no name 1]

Exactly - I don't think its unrealistic that a prospective spouse could be in the dark about their fiance/e's prior criminal history from 20 years ago, or a previous visa overstay when they were just out of college, or prior drug habit - I can totally see how it might not come up much (or at all) while you're dating the person - until you start researching the visa application process. By then you're already committed - emotionally and otherwise. It might make things more difficult, complicated, or require the services of a lawyer - but as you say could I stifle a relationship, I'm not sure - Most likely not.

For one thing I tend to regard what's past as past - and that my view on things isn't quite as black and white as what is written down in say immigration or criminal law.

But I thought this whole discussion was about someone being an illegal NOW - not an offense committed 10 years ago.....???

Its a tangential issue, but not so far removed.

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Why must one be labeled paranoid or oversensitive if they choose to avoid certain types of people as marriage partners?

What does that make those who do not choose to avoid to marry less than preferable types? Heroic? I think not.

Not what I mean't exactly - to clarify: the paranoid and oversensitive I was referring to are the ones who are/have thrown up a stink whenever someone interprets their posts beyond the exact words and phrasiology they chose to write.

As far as it goes "certain types of people" works as a generality, not when you apply it to specific cases. Again would you judge a prospective spouse as an "undesirable" simply because you learn about something from their past that might, quite plausibly, have never come up when you were dating?

Leaving aside our knowledge of having been through this immigration process - how are you supposed to know whether your spouses overstay from years ago is a problem, they might not even realise it themselves. Does this mean they should turn their back on the relationship because of it? I think I can say with confidence that many people on this forum wouldn't and didn't.

ooh, name calling, how mature!

Must have missed the name-calling there as much as a general description of your hysterical behaviour. Regardless the discussion had moved on since then but I guess you need to inject your bit of melodrama.

Suggest its time for you to $hit or get off the pot

Wow, so having a life makes me not able to reply a few hours later - to a very childish comment YOU made, very specifically about me, so deal.

Thanks Dev I feel well and truly chided

Feel free to go ahead and be scandalised by every single pos, which you seem intent on doing. Get your money's worth.

I'm not the one whining to close the thread.....

[Peikko 1,575]

Who is it making assumptions? My point, such as it is, is that I didn't screen for illegal immigrants, it didn't occur to me. Any discussion about background would not have been conducted in terms of that question so it is quite conceivable that one could know someone well, without knowing that about them.