U.S. citizen arrested under state's new anti-illegal immigrant law, Hispanic advocate says

[Peikko 1,575]

I have no problem answering though. My choices are, as I suspect a lot of people's, a mixture of emotional and rational thought. I am not aware that I have ever engaged in a relationship with an illegal immigrant, but then again, I am not sure that I would know because, quite simply, I have never screened my dates on the basis of whether they might be illegal immigrants or not.

Being able to distance oneself from a romantic relationship to fully observe one's decisions and evaluate them might objectively be a good thing but then I freely admit I can't do it. My emotional attachments do effect my decisions. The end result is that my emotional life has been a patchwork of good and bad decisions. I am not ashamed of them, nor proud of them, they are what they are and I live with them.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not knowing or caring much about a person's character or values is what you potentially get when "falling in love" in a frivolous manner. I set out to be married, not simply to date and perhaps stumble upon someone "hot". That may be why I looked for substance and not just let my feelings lead me into something less than what I deserve.

Well that's a mighty high standard you're applying to yourself. Again not that you've explicitly said this (for those paranoid and oversensitive types) but do you look down on people whose relationships and decision to marry are more spontaneous?

I don't know about you but I look at the emotional aspect of marriage as being rather important, as opposed to merely a stale social contract of "suitable types" - which for me seems a little Victorian.

Regardless however - that brings up another question. Do you think that a prior overstay or a minor criminal history from many years ago makes a person an inherently bad prospect for marriage? More specifically, would the aforementioned overstay or criminal history (which as I said could quite plausibly never come up while you were dating) be reason enough for you to cut ties with the person because it involves a more difficult immigration process?

Edited November 9, 2007 by Number 6

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I think what you may be failing to grasp between what Natty and I are saying is that this is not about just about immigration. It's about not allowing your emotions to overcome your common sense. A person who intentionally breaks the law because it's inconvenient for them to follow the law is quite able to do that about more then immigration issues. Where does that end? There are rules in marriage, and people who break laws willfully do not often believe that the rules apply to them. Why take that chance when looking for a marriage partner? Would you reccomend such a person to a friend or your son or daughter?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think what you may be failing to grasp between what Natty and I are saying is that this is not about just about immigration. It's about not allowing your emotions to overcome your common sense. A person who intentionally breaks the law because it's inconvenient for them to follow the law is quite able to do that about more then immigration issues. Where does that end? There are rules in marriage, and people who break laws willfully do not often believe that the rules apply to them. Why take that chance when looking for a marriage partner? Would you reccomend such a person to a friend or your son or daughter?

Well... Does common sense irrevocably tarnish a person in your eyes for a few blips when they were younger?

P.S. Out of curiosity I wonder how many people are on VJ right now trying to apply for spousal/fiance visas for someone who has an issue in their past like an old overstay or an ancient criminal record?

[natty bumppo 297]

Again - what if the question doesn't occur to you, or at the least - if it simply doesn't come up until the time you're already emotionally committed and have made the decision to marry? When my fiancee and I decided to get married we didn't know diddly squat about this process outside of very general terminology. Fortunately for me I don't have a criminal record or any prior overstay issues - but let me ask you this - how would you know at the time you decided to get married if anything like that in your SO's past could be a problem for them in applying for immigration benefits?

Its been said on VJ many times that people who haven't gone through this process don't understand what is involved - still we've all been there at one time or another. Did you really research the immigration process in detail before you decided to get married? Kudos to you if you did - but I think you'll find there are many folks out there who didn't and had to take it a step at a time.

In a simple word ... yes.

We also researched the various Visa options available (K1, K3, IR/CR-1), careers, locations, etc. before making our decisions. These were very discussed topics.

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't think those count. It's being an illegal immigrant that tarnishes one's character beyond acceptable levels, or at least that is my interpretation. Personally, I think that's hogwash but GEG and Natty are entitled to their view, of course.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Again - what if the question doesn't occur to you, or at the least - if it simply doesn't come up until the time you're already emotionally committed and have made the decision to marry? When my fiancee and I decided to get married we didn't know diddly squat about this process outside of very general terminology. Fortunately for me I don't have a criminal record or any prior overstay issues - but let me ask you this - how would you know at the time you decided to get married if anything like that in your SO's past could be a problem for them in applying for immigration benefits?

Its been said on VJ many times that people who haven't gone through this process don't understand what is involved - still we've all been there at one time or another. Did you really research the immigration process in detail before you decided to get married? Kudos to you if you did - but I think you'll find there are many folks out there who didn't and had to take it a step at a time.

In a simple word ... yes.

We also researched the various Visa options available (K1, K3, IR/CR-1), careers, locations, etc. before making our decisions. These were very discussed topics.

Well hypothetically would a previous overstay or ancient criminal history on the part of your SO have made you cancel your plans altogether, or merely change your destination?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Not knowing or caring much about a person's character or values is what you potentially get when "falling in love" in a frivolous manner. I set out to be married, not simply to date and perhaps stumble upon someone "hot". That may be why I looked for substance and not just let my feelings lead me into something less than what I deserve.

Well that's a mighty high standard you're applying to yourself. Again not that you've explicitly said this (for those paranoid and oversensitive types) but do you look down on people whose relationships and decision to marry are more spontaneous?

I don't know about you but I look at the emotional aspect of marriage as being rather important, as opposed to merely a stale social contract of "suitable types" - which for me seems a little Victorian.

Regardless however - that brings up another question. Do you think that a prior overstay or a minor criminal history from many years ago makes a person an inherently bad prospect for marriage? More specifically, would the aforementioned overstay or criminal history (which as I said could quite plausibly never come up while you were dating) be reason enough for you to cut ties with the person because it involves a more difficult immigration process?

I greatly appreciate you allowing me to answer for myself. I have no reason to look down on others for whom they marry. I have counseled my own children, nieces and nephews as to how to choose a life partner, and I'm satisfied that they have chosen to take my advice.

Marriage is serious business; it can't be all about emotion, but the part that is can't be left merely to chance. I can't allow myself to be totally vulnerable to another person without the kind of trust, honesty and openness that comes from having not only discussed their values and character, but having observed them. Actions speak louder than words. If I give myself over emotionally, financially, mentally, physically to another fallible human being, I can do that only when I can believe that that person will not intentionally harm me in return. I can't have that level of trust with someone who has a history of living as an illegal.

But that's just me.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't think those count. It's being an illegal immigrant that tarnishes one's character beyond acceptable levels, or at least that is my interpretation. Personally, I think that's hogwash but GEG and Natty are entitled to their view, of course.

True - but its really the same principle - dealing with the consequences of past actions on the part of the foreign fiance. The problems you would face as far as marriage and immigration go are very similar.

[Peikko 1,575]

Humans are indeed fallible, of that we can all be in complete agreement, no?

[natty bumppo 297]

I greatly appreciate you allowing me to answer for myself. I have no reason to look down on others for whom they marry. I have counseled my own children, nieces and nephews as to how to choose a life partner, and I'm satisfied that they have chosen to take my advice.

Marriage is serious business; it can't be all about emotion, but the part that is can't be left merely to chance. I can't allow myself to be totally vulnerable to another person without the kind of trust, honesty and openness that comes from having not only discussed their values and character, but having observed them. Actions speak louder than words. If I give myself over emotionally, financially, mentally, physically to another fallible human being, I can do that only when I can believe that that person will not intentionally harm me in return. I can't have that level of trust with someone who has a history of living as an illegal.

But that's just me.

Very well said ... me too

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Humans are indeed fallible, of that we can all be in complete agreement, no?

Indeed.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Number 6

[Sofiyya 1,687]

One of my daughters displayed her propensity for wisdom at a very early age when she announced that she had learned that one has to earn trust, that it should not just be given. I don't understand some of the questions asked, for they appear to put the cart before the horse. Would I end a relationship if I found out about a person's shady past? Would I stop loving them?

?????

I wouldn't have a love relationship with someone whose history I didn't know. I don't know what you love about a person unless you love their character and values, then work your way out from there.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

One of my daughters displayed her propensity for wisdom at a very early age when she announced that she had learned that one has to earn trust, that it should not just be given. I don't understand some of the questions asked, for they appear to put the cart before the horse. Would I end a relationship if I found out about a person's shady past? Would I stop loving them?

?????

I wouldn't have a love relationship with someone whose history I didn't know. I don't know what you love about a person unless you love their character and values, then work your way out from there.

Well in the examples I mentioned - the past overstay, or a decades-old criminal record - this might not even come up in conversation until the relationship is already advanced. I dunno - I think the expectation that you know every single detail about a person and what they've done in their life from the year dot is rather unrealistic.

How would they know if the time they overstayed their visitor visa or visa waiver in 1980 would be a problem for them in 2007, furthermore how could you?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Knowing every single detail of a person's life? No, that is unrealistic and I don't expect to know that. If a person is here illegally and/or think rules don't apply to them . . . that is not impossible to know.

I'm a bit old-fashioned, so I don't evaluate potential partners the way many do today.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Green-eyed girl