U.S. citizen arrested under state's new anti-illegal immigrant law, Hispanic advocate says

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Repetition doesn't make it any more relevant now than it was the first time, in my opinion.

Neither does your replying to every single post with very personal questions, that are completely not your business.

Personal questions? Give over and stop being such a thin-skinned drama queen.

Mods - time to close this thread I think. It went tits up a long time ago, and its heading south with every page.

It's not really your thread to close though.

If it's so bad, why you keep replying?

Clearly you're getting more out of it than I am, though its hard to see what.

Its rather weird that you seem unwilling to allow anyone to even discuss you comments because their interpretation apparently cannot deviate from the literal verbatim word for word of what you said. As if you hold a monopoly on how people perceive what you write.

If you don't like the interpretation someone has made - feel free to clarify your meaning; instead of trying to shut down any and all discussion with melodramatic outrage.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

I find that an alarming proposition personally.

i can think of an alarming proposition for you

[natty bumppo 297]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Edited November 9, 2007 by Number 6

[natty bumppo 297]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Edited November 9, 2007 by Natty Bumppo

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Re-read what you stated in red...a total characterization and framing of the debate in an attempt to dismiss those who don't agree with you.

I think my point is clear and that is that however much you and many other here attempt to marginalize those who don't adhere to your hardline approach towards immigration, we aren't the ones who are on the fray over immigration. All major political parties with their ideologies (including Libertarians) have had a much more open approach to immigration. Our voice and our opinions on illegal immigration are not only valid but have been the tradition of America.

I notice that you do that often, Steven, accusing those who don't apply your rules to their responses of "dismissing those who disagree with you". If I was to dismiss you, I wouldn't respond to you. When I show you the courtesy of addressing you, but don't do it in a manner that pleases you or conforms to your version of reality or notion of "tradition", you insult me. Must I agree with you for you to remain civil?

Gee, . . . Perhaps I would do better to dismiss you. I'd save valuable time, that's for sure.

Also, I'm not so sure how much of a defense it is to say 'Well, I wouldn't marry an illegal because I think that's evidence that they're no good liars who have no respect for the law, but if you don't care about liars, just your happiness, marry away. My opinion no cooties no punchback! ' There's a limit, I think, to what 'just my opinion can cover' and if I were to say "I wouldn't marry a black man because they're all shiftless drug dealers, but if you don't care about drug dealers, just your happiness, you are legally free to marry" or "Some Arabs beat their wives, so I'm never dating an Arab, but if you don't care about being beaten, marry away. It's just my opinion!", or "May-December marriages are gross and abnormal, but if you like gross, marry away! I never said you coudn't" I doubt many of you would be nodding sagely at how wise I was.

I think assuming everyone who has ever fallen out of status or otherwise been illegal is a congenital criminal is a similarly bad position, and saying 'just my opinion' doesn't really cut against the insult to those whose spouses have been illegal. Even the U.S. government doesn't think that being illegal makes you a congenital criminal. If you're illegal in one country, it has no effect at all on whether you'd be let into the U.S. It's just not a crime indicating moral decay.

When did what I said become a "defense"? And, when did being illegal become analygous to racial prejudice and lumping races into categories of lawlessness? This has nothing to do with race, illegals aren't limited to any specific race. But, to be illegal, well, duh, first you have to be in the country illegally. I made it clear that willfulness and purposeful actions taken to be illegal were abhorant to me, not merely finding yourself in a bureaucratic snafu.

The act of intentionally becoming illegal doesn't stop with crossing a border without government approval. It involves moving deeper into illegality by lying and cheating. There's no way around that. To work, you have to break laws. Illegals aren't euphemistically called "undocumented" for nothin'. That our governement takes a laisee faire attitude toward illegals doesn't require that I do so, as well. The Constitution doesn't support their lack of guts to protect our nation's sovereignty, and neither do I.

As for the indignity expressed for the spouses of illegals or former illegals, I have no idea how other people choose a spouse. Some people actually prefer criminals and actively seek out relationships with men and women in prison. I had some friends in high school who went for that sort of thing, and I still scratch my head about that. Unlike some here who enjoy pseudo-psycholgy, I can only speak for myself, and, no, you are not forced to like it.

I would like to hear a good defense of love over common sense. That would be worth reason.

While of course, it is GEG's prerogative to state her opinions with the advise of like it or lump it (English for take it or leave it), one is left with these somewhat meaningless statements.

I still have no idea how one really lives in the way described, a rigid adherence to a personal code that precludes sympathy for anyone who brakes this code. I imagine though one would certainly have to have a very tight curb on one's emotions.

I also am unclear, as I believe is Caladan, how one separates different levels of 'illegality'. Or maybe, one doesn't. Maybe there are those with a position that anyone who 'overstays' should be sent back 'home' to start again. Maybe this will be clarified.

I do control my emotions when it comes to making long term decisions. It's become even more important to do when I see the negative consequences that arise from "following your heart" and other ethereal pablum rather than applying reason. I live in the real world, some only visit there.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Number 6

[LaL 418]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is not a little unrealistic; and indeed unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

I am quite more aware of immigration status and fumblings because I have *been* through it. Had I met someone who was an immigrant without all this prior *education*, perhaps I would be a wee bit naiive to what lay ahead. Naiive to the system - definately, but stifle a relationship - most likely not. Point being that I am biased *now* because of my experience and exposure to immigration.

[JODO 2]

LaL

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Why must one be labeled paranoid or oversensitive if they choose to avoid certain types of people as marriage partners?

What does that make those who do not choose to avoid to marry less than preferable types? Heroic? I think not.

[natty bumppo 297]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Sorry ...

I'll be more basic ... and make this comment for anyone ... legal or not

I ask and expect truthful answers. I expect to be asked and will give truthful answers. At any time in the process either party can make the decision based on their morals and judgements to say ... Stop ... No more.

I look at the person ... I want to know ... and have stopped relationships or avoided them because there was something showing that I didn't want in my life.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is not a little unrealistic; and indeed unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

I am quite more aware of immigration status and fumblings because I have *been* through it. Had I met someone who was an immigrant without all this prior *education*, perhaps I would be a wee bit naiive to what lay ahead. Naiive to the system - definately, but stifle a relationship - most likely not. Point being that I am biased *now* because of my experience and exposure to immigration.

Exactly - I don't think its unrealistic that a prospective spouse could be in the dark about their fiance/e's prior criminal history from 20 years ago, or a previous visa overstay when they were just out of college, or prior drug habit - I can totally see how it might not come up much (or at all) while you're dating the person - until you start researching the visa application process. By then you're already committed - emotionally and otherwise. It might make things more difficult, complicated, or require the services of a lawyer - but as you say could I stifle a relationship, I'm not sure - Most likely not.

For one thing I tend to regard what's past as past - and that my view on things isn't quite as black and white as what is written down in say immigration or criminal law.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Why must one be labeled paranoid or oversensitive if they choose to avoid certain types of people as marriage partners?

What does that make those who do not choose to avoid to marry less than preferable types? Heroic? I think not.

Not what I mean't exactly - to clarify: the paranoid and oversensitive I was referring to are the ones who are/have thrown up a stink whenever someone interprets their posts beyond the exact words and phrasiology they chose to write.

As far as it goes "certain types of people" works as a generality, not when you apply it to specific cases. Again would you judge a prospective spouse as an "undesirable" simply because you learn about something from their past that might, quite plausibly, have never come up when you were dating?

Leaving aside our knowledge of having been through this immigration process - how are you supposed to know whether your spouses overstay from years ago is a problem, they might not even realise it themselves. Does this mean they should turn their back on the relationship because of it? I think I can say with confidence that many people on this forum wouldn't and didn't.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Not knowing or caring much about a person's character or values is what you potentially get when "falling in love" in a frivolous manner. I set out to be married, not simply to date and perhaps stumble upon someone "hot". That may be why I looked for substance and not just let my feelings lead me into something less than what I deserve.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

In your view Devilette, if someone says they would never marry an illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen.

You first ....

In your view PH, if someone says they would never marry a illegal, how do you think you should go about avoiding that eventuality in real life? Really, I am curious, because I have no idea how one would screen people in order to ensure that this couldn't happen. (hypothetically of course)

How do YOU choose ? ... or are you ruled by emotion?

You asked the question ... are you prepared for the mirror test ? And ... I'm asking your opinion ... not advice.

Isn't the answer already indicated in the bolded part above?

Get it yet ?

Not really - except that the expectation that people should know every little detail about a person before they decide to start a relationship, get married and start researching the immigration process is a little unrealistic and unreasonable.

And for the paranoid or oversensitive amongst us - no I am not saying that they exactly said this. But the point remains.

Sorry ...

I'll be more basic ... and make this comment for anyone ... legal or not

I ask and expect truthful answers. I expect to be asked and will give truthful answers. At any time in the process either party can make the decision based on their morals and judgements to say ... Stop ... No more.

I look at the person ... I want to know ... and have stopped relationships or avoided them because there was something showing that I didn't want in my life.

Again - what if the question doesn't occur to you, or at the least - if it simply doesn't come up until the time you're already emotionally committed and have made the decision to marry? When my fiancee and I decided to get married we didn't know diddly squat about this process outside of very general terminology. Fortunately for me I don't have a criminal record or any prior overstay issues - but let me ask you this - how would you know at the time you decided to get married if anything like that in your SO's past could be a problem for them in applying for immigration benefits?

Its been said on VJ many times that people who haven't gone through this process don't understand what is involved - still we've all been there at one time or another. Did you really research the immigration process in detail before you decided to get married? Kudos to you if you did - but I think you'll find there are many folks out there who didn't and had to take it a step at a time.