U.S. citizen arrested under state's new anti-illegal immigrant law, Hispanic advocate says

[Peikko 1,575]

As stated, I fully apologies if my comments were laid on a bit thick which was unnecessary.

Really, it boils down to this, I sincerely believe that the only way to explain the volume of illegal aliens in the US (and the EU) is if you accept that they are economic migrants. I do not view someone who migrates for economic reasons as inherently criminal, although of course they have broken a specific law.

Countries with large populations of illegal aliens do face many problems, not least how to square helping people for whom technically the government bear no responsibility because it is not possible to simply ignore them while they remain.

While it would be great if illegal immigration simply ceased to exist, that is really not going to happen but I would argue a longer sighted permanent solution is worth shooting for.

[Leney 0]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

You are kidding right? You think just because you love someone you should be able to be here illegally???? I had to spend a long effing time away from my husband, whom I love and adore, so we could do this completely LEGALLY. At no point was he illegal or out of status. We had to scrimp and save and agonize over ever moment apart, and over ever dollar immigration would cost us - but we did it LEGALLY! Love is not a justification for illegal immigration anymore than seeking a better way of life. Give me a freaking break.

If anyone wants into the USA, they have no right, at all, to enter this country in a manner that is not legal. There is no justification in my mind for illegal immigration. You want to say life is so hard and unbearable in another country - then become a refugee. There is no circumstance I can fathom where illegal immigration is okay or acceptable or wanted by Average Joe Tax Paying American OR Average Joe Tax Paying Permanent Resident.

Just as there is no circumstance in my mind where you are so hungry you must steal bread - there are ALWAYS LEGAL ALTERNATIVES and for anyone to suggest otherwise is ludicrous in this day and age. I am so sick of this "put a love heart on the world" bleeding heart mentality. No one deserves to be GIVEN anything. You work hard, you work long, and that is the only way you get anything. If you cannot handle legal immigration or entering the USA in a legal manner - YOU DO NOT BELONG HERE - period!

[natty bumppo 289]

Good grief. Am I invisible? Am I talking out of my bottom and therefore speaking a different language? Stop with the antagonism and stuff of which the words fail me at the moment (am rather light headed from kilz2 fumes so pardon my ditziness). Stop it all, otherwise it'll be.....hammer locky time.

Mags, I apol for my *snicker* comment since it was vague, but it was really on topic and not meant to antagonize. I don't think Dev's comment was insensitive towards our Mexican members...in fact, it's disspelling a lot of lies that anyone here who is anti-illegal has made the statements that PH was accussing people here of thinking. I for one am anti illegal, but have never made the statements that any country's people are 'lazy, stupid, etc'. That's an important distinction that Dev made about the people here who are anti-illegal.

I snickered because she hit the nail on the head with one fell swoop & it's wildly strange that I find myself agreeing with her on something. I assume C did the same for the same reasons. Dev's comment was disspelling some of the bs from the conversation, so the only other comment after your warning would be #6's.

Is that what you're referring to?

Offhand - Natty made a statement along those lines, and it wasn't very many pages ago

But if we are talking about dispelling lies - how about the one that has been perpetrated throughout this and the other thread that people who don't agree with specific laws are somehow "pro-illegal immigrant". If you want to be honest here - at least acknowledge that the "debate" thus far has been characterised by hysterical interpretations of people's words (and of course, not a little anger)

As usual this thread could do with less melodrama - but after a certain point that seems to be the only thing that keeps the thing going. At this point - it really should be closed. IMO. Seeing as the discussion has long since lost i) focus and ii) any pretense of civilised discourse.

I think you need more practice with your offhand

It also takes work and dedication to invade another country and stay hidden and safe while being exploited.

There are two paths for people to take … and the one being chosen is not in the best interests of the invaded country and does not help the home country improve conditions for future generations.

(It could be called a ... short term solution)

Next:

About YOUR inference of the word “stupid” to being used by me … dude … pathetic … just pathetic.

So … at what point did I make ... in your word a "statement" ... "… that any country's people are 'lazy, stupid, etc'".

state·ment (sttmnt)

n.

1. The act of stating or declaring.

2. Something stated; a declaration.

3. Law A formal pleading.

4. An abstract of a commercial or financial account showing an amount due; a bill.

5. A monthly report sent to a debtor or bank depositor.

6. Computer Science An elementary instruction in a programming language.

7. An overall impression or mood intended to be communicated, especially by means other than words:

Statement

What you made was an extremely rude accusation that is totally unfounded.

Translation => Illegal aliens who invade a sovereign nation

After all ...it takes work and dedication to make your own country better. So lets see ... they invade another country ... send money back to the home country ... and nothing changes in the home country. Sounds like a self perpetuating cycle that needs to be broken.

There is a different solution ... stay home, be part of the solution, and fix the problem.

Then nothing changes in the home country.

People there just get subsidized by a family member who is living in fear of the law somewhere else ... and continue to turn their backs on the real issues oftheir home country ... one of which includes saving their heritage by making their country a better place to live.

"It does require some input from those nations that have the wealth to be able to improve the situation of those nations that are impoverished."

And a country with lots of oil/ gas and other natural resources doesn't have wealth ?!?!?!

[no name 1]

Good grief. Am I invisible? Am I talking out of my bottom and therefore speaking a different language? Stop with the antagonism and stuff of which the words fail me at the moment (am rather light headed from kilz2 fumes so pardon my ditziness). Stop it all, otherwise it'll be.....hammer locky time.

Mags, I apol for my *snicker* comment since it was vague, but it was really on topic and not meant to antagonize. I don't think Dev's comment was insensitive towards our Mexican members...in fact, it's disspelling a lot of lies that anyone here who is anti-illegal has made the statements that PH was accussing people here of thinking. I for one am anti illegal, but have never made the statements that any country's people are 'lazy, stupid, etc'. That's an important distinction that Dev made about the people here who are anti-illegal.

I snickered because she hit the nail on the head with one fell swoop & it's wildly strange that I find myself agreeing with her on something. I assume C did the same for the same reasons. Dev's comment was disspelling some of the bs from the conversation, so the only other comment after your warning would be #6's.

Is that what you're referring to?

Offhand - Natty made a statement along those lines, and it wasn't very many pages ago

But if we are talking about dispelling lies - how about the one that has been perpetrated throughout this and the other thread that people who don't agree with specific laws are somehow "pro-illegal immigrant". If you want to be honest here - at least acknowledge that the "debate" thus far has been characterised by hysterical interpretations of people's words (and of course, not a little anger)

As usual this thread could do with less melodrama - but after a certain point that seems to be the only thing that keeps the thing going. At this point - it really should be closed. IMO. Seeing as the discussion has long since lost i) focus and ii) any pretense of civilised discourse.

I think you need more practice with your offhand

It also takes work and dedication to invade another country and stay hidden and safe while being exploited.

There are two paths for people to take … and the one being chosen is not in the best interests of the invaded country and does not help the home country improve conditions for future generations.

(It could be called a ... short term solution)

Next:

About YOUR inference of the word “stupid” to being used by me … dude … pathetic … just pathetic.

So … at what point did I make ... in your word a "statement" ... "… that any country's people are 'lazy, stupid, etc'".

state·ment (sttmnt)

n.

1. The act of stating or declaring.

2. Something stated; a declaration.

3. Law A formal pleading.

4. An abstract of a commercial or financial account showing an amount due; a bill.

5. A monthly report sent to a debtor or bank depositor.

6. Computer Science An elementary instruction in a programming language.

7. An overall impression or mood intended to be communicated, especially by means other than words:

Statement

What you made was an extremely rude accusation that is totally unfounded.

Yeah, that seemed to be happening to me a lot yesterday too by the same person. Crazy, that.

[pedroh 21]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

You are kidding right? You think just because you love someone you should be able to be here illegally???? I had to spend a long effing time away from my husband, whom I love and adore, so we could do this completely LEGALLY. At no point was he illegal or out of status. We had to scrimp and save and agonize over ever moment apart, and over ever dollar immigration would cost us - but we did it LEGALLY! Love is not a justification for illegal immigration anymore than seeking a better way of life. Give me a freaking break.

If anyone wants into the USA, they have no right, at all, to enter this country in a manner that is not legal. There is no justification in my mind for illegal immigration. You want to say life is so hard and unbearable in another country - then become a refugee. There is no circumstance I can fathom where illegal immigration is okay or acceptable or wanted by Average Joe Tax Paying American OR Average Joe Tax Paying Permanent Resident.

Just as there is no circumstance in my mind where you are so hungry you must steal bread - there are ALWAYS LEGAL ALTERNATIVES and for anyone to suggest otherwise is ludicrous in this day and age. I am so sick of this "put a love heart on the world" bleeding heart mentality. No one deserves to be GIVEN anything. You work hard, you work long, and that is the only way you get anything. If you cannot handle legal immigration or entering the USA in a legal manner - YOU DO NOT BELONG HERE - period!

tell that to the people that married illegal immigrants and fixed their paperwork, tell them if you dare, how their husbands/wives initially didn't belong him..

fyi, they had to go through the paperwork, as you, and me, probably even more, so is not that they skipped steps to do so

besides, got the initial paperwork in less than a year? cry me a rive, there's people with longer processing times, and they don't even complain..

Edited November 8, 2007 by pedroh

[Ban Hammer 13,230]

Good grief. Am I invisible? Am I talking out of my bottom and therefore speaking a different language? Stop with the antagonism and stuff of which the words fail me at the moment (am rather light headed from kilz2 fumes so pardon my ditziness). Stop it all, otherwise it'll be.....hammer locky time.

Mags, I apol for my *snicker* comment since it was vague, but it was really on topic and not meant to antagonize. I don't think Dev's comment was insensitive towards our Mexican members...in fact, it's disspelling a lot of lies that anyone here who is anti-illegal has made the statements that PH was accussing people here of thinking. I for one am anti illegal, but have never made the statements that any country's people are 'lazy, stupid, etc'. That's an important distinction that Dev made about the people here who are anti-illegal.

I snickered because she hit the nail on the head with one fell swoop & it's wildly strange that I find myself agreeing with her on something. I assume C did the same for the same reasons. Dev's comment was disspelling some of the bs from the conversation, so the only other comment after your warning would be #6's.

Is that what you're referring to?

Offhand - Natty made a statement along those lines, and it wasn't very many pages ago

But if we are talking about dispelling lies - how about the one that has been perpetrated throughout this and the other thread that people who don't agree with specific laws are somehow "pro-illegal immigrant". If you want to be honest here - at least acknowledge that the "debate" thus far has been characterised by hysterical interpretations of people's words (and of course, not a little anger)

As usual this thread could do with less melodrama - but after a certain point that seems to be the only thing that keeps the thing going. At this point - it really should be closed. IMO. Seeing as the discussion has long since lost i) focus and ii) any pretense of civilised discourse.

I think you need more practice with your offhand

It also takes work and dedication to invade another country and stay hidden and safe while being exploited.

There are two paths for people to take … and the one being chosen is not in the best interests of the invaded country and does not help the home country improve conditions for future generations.

(It could be called a ... short term solution)

Next:

About YOUR inference of the word “stupid” to being used by me … dude … pathetic … just pathetic.

So … at what point did I make ... in your word a "statement" ... "… that any country's people are 'lazy, stupid, etc'".

state·ment (sttmnt)

n.

1. The act of stating or declaring.

2. Something stated; a declaration.

3. Law A formal pleading.

4. An abstract of a commercial or financial account showing an amount due; a bill.

5. A monthly report sent to a debtor or bank depositor.

6. Computer Science An elementary instruction in a programming language.

7. An overall impression or mood intended to be communicated, especially by means other than words:

Statement

What you made was an extremely rude accusation that is totally unfounded.

Yeah, that seemed to be happening to me a lot yesterday too by the same person. Crazy, that.

i do believe that famous military officer stopped by.........you all know him.

major pwnage

tell that to the people that married illegal immigrants and fixed their paperwork, tell them if you dare, how their husbands/wives initially didn't belong him..

fyi, they had to go through the paperwork, as you, and me, probably even more, so is not that they skipped steps to do so

huh?

[no name 1]

i do believe that famous military officer stopped by.........you all know him.

major pwnage

[pedroh 21]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

You are kidding right? You think just because you love someone you should be able to be here illegally???? I had to spend a long effing time away from my husband, whom I love and adore, so we could do this completely LEGALLY. At no point was he illegal or out of status. We had to scrimp and save and agonize over ever moment apart, and over ever dollar immigration would cost us - but we did it LEGALLY! Love is not a justification for illegal immigration anymore than seeking a better way of life. Give me a freaking break.

If anyone wants into the USA, they have no right, at all, to enter this country in a manner that is not legal. There is no justification in my mind for illegal immigration. You want to say life is so hard and unbearable in another country - then become a refugee. There is no circumstance I can fathom where illegal immigration is okay or acceptable or wanted by Average Joe Tax Paying American OR Average Joe Tax Paying Permanent Resident.

Just as there is no circumstance in my mind where you are so hungry you must steal bread - there are ALWAYS LEGAL ALTERNATIVES and for anyone to suggest otherwise is ludicrous in this day and age. I am so sick of this "put a love heart on the world" bleeding heart mentality. No one deserves to be GIVEN anything. You work hard, you work long, and that is the only way you get anything. If you cannot handle legal immigration or entering the USA in a legal manner - YOU DO NOT BELONG HERE - period!

tell that to the people that married illegal immigrants and fixed their paperwork, tell them if you dare, how their husbands/wives initially didn't belong him..

fyi, they had to go through the paperwork, as you, and me, probably even more, so is not that they skipped steps to do so

besides, got the initial paperwork in less than a year? cry me a rive, there's people with longer processing times, and they don't even complain..

and u didn't answer the question, if you've met ur SO and he was illegal, would you turn him away, or try to fix his paperwork?? or HE DOESNT BELONG HERE?

[Ban Hammer 13,230]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

You are kidding right? You think just because you love someone you should be able to be here illegally???? I had to spend a long effing time away from my husband, whom I love and adore, so we could do this completely LEGALLY. At no point was he illegal or out of status. We had to scrimp and save and agonize over ever moment apart, and over ever dollar immigration would cost us - but we did it LEGALLY! Love is not a justification for illegal immigration anymore than seeking a better way of life. Give me a freaking break.

If anyone wants into the USA, they have no right, at all, to enter this country in a manner that is not legal. There is no justification in my mind for illegal immigration. You want to say life is so hard and unbearable in another country - then become a refugee. There is no circumstance I can fathom where illegal immigration is okay or acceptable or wanted by Average Joe Tax Paying American OR Average Joe Tax Paying Permanent Resident.

Just as there is no circumstance in my mind where you are so hungry you must steal bread - there are ALWAYS LEGAL ALTERNATIVES and for anyone to suggest otherwise is ludicrous in this day and age. I am so sick of this "put a love heart on the world" bleeding heart mentality. No one deserves to be GIVEN anything. You work hard, you work long, and that is the only way you get anything. If you cannot handle legal immigration or entering the USA in a legal manner - YOU DO NOT BELONG HERE - period!

tell that to the people that married illegal immigrants and fixed their paperwork, tell them if you dare, how their husbands/wives initially didn't belong him..

fyi, they had to go through the paperwork, as you, and me, probably even more, so is not that they skipped steps to do so

besides, got the initial paperwork in less than a year? cry me a rive, there's people with longer processing times, and they don't even complain..

and u didn't answer the question, if you've met ur SO and he was illegal, would you turn him away, or try to fix his paperwork?? or HE DOESNT BELONG HERE?

pedroh, i don't think 4 minutes is a reasonable amount of time to expect leney to come back and answer you.

[no name 1]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

You are kidding right? You think just because you love someone you should be able to be here illegally???? I had to spend a long effing time away from my husband, whom I love and adore, so we could do this completely LEGALLY. At no point was he illegal or out of status. We had to scrimp and save and agonize over ever moment apart, and over ever dollar immigration would cost us - but we did it LEGALLY! Love is not a justification for illegal immigration anymore than seeking a better way of life. Give me a freaking break.

If anyone wants into the USA, they have no right, at all, to enter this country in a manner that is not legal. There is no justification in my mind for illegal immigration. You want to say life is so hard and unbearable in another country - then become a refugee. There is no circumstance I can fathom where illegal immigration is okay or acceptable or wanted by Average Joe Tax Paying American OR Average Joe Tax Paying Permanent Resident.

Just as there is no circumstance in my mind where you are so hungry you must steal bread - there are ALWAYS LEGAL ALTERNATIVES and for anyone to suggest otherwise is ludicrous in this day and age. I am so sick of this "put a love heart on the world" bleeding heart mentality. No one deserves to be GIVEN anything. You work hard, you work long, and that is the only way you get anything. If you cannot handle legal immigration or entering the USA in a legal manner - YOU DO NOT BELONG HERE - period!

tell that to the people that married illegal immigrants and fixed their paperwork, tell them if you dare, how their husbands/wives initially didn't belong him..

fyi, they had to go through the paperwork, as you, and me, probably even more, so is not that they skipped steps to do so

besides, got the initial paperwork in less than a year? cry me a rive, there's people with longer processing times, and they don't even complain..

and u didn't answer the question, if you've met ur SO and he was illegal, would you turn him away, or try to fix his paperwork?? or HE DOESNT BELONG HERE?

pedroh, i don't think 4 minutes is a reasonable amount of time to expect leney to come back and answer you.

teehee.

[natty bumppo 289]

Oops

Lost the edit ...

Edit: What edit ?

Edited November 8, 2007 by Natty Bumppo

[natty bumppo 289]

and u didn't answer the question, if you've met ur SO and he was illegal, would you turn him away, or try to fix his paperwork?? or HE DOESNT BELONG HERE?

Actually the potential SO needs to fix their paperwork ... it's difficult for you ... without their help (documents and signature)

Edited November 8, 2007 by Natty Bumppo

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Steven, what would you know about "traditional conservative values"? You actually have no idea what I consider to be "traditionally conservative", if I consider my views to be "traditionally conservative",or even if I place a value on "traditional conservativism", so you can't tell if my views measure up or not. You like to say that the anti-illegals are a minority, but that you don't know either. The fact is, there is a lot you don't know.

I don't need no stinkin political party to represent my views; Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin. They have both proven to be worthless and ineffective when it comes to the bread and butter issues of the common man. Democracy was never a spectator sport and I have never played it that way. My representatives now know me by name. I've made sure of it. I am heard, and not just on this forum. Fear is what motivates politicians; make sure they feel the fear.

So for someone who has been outspoken about your political conservativism, how does your position jive with the traditional conservative view?

From the Wall Street Journal (July 2006)

Conservatives and Immigration

The debate on the right about freedom, culture and the welfare state.

No issue more deeply divides American conservatives today than immigration. It's the subject on which we get the most critical mail by far, no doubt reflecting this split on the right. So with Congress holding hearings on the issue around the country, perhaps it's a good moment to step back and explain the roots of our own, longstanding position favoring open immigration.

A position, by the way, on which we hardly stand alone. There is also President Bush, and before him the Gipper. (See our editorial, "Reagan on Immigration.") In the context of the current debate, we also print an open letter supporting comprehensive immigration reform from 33 prominent conservatives, including former Secretary of State George Shultz and GOP Vice Presidential nominee Jack Kemp. (The letter is available here.)

The most frequent criticism we hear is that a newspaper called "The Wall Street Journal" simply wants "cheap labor" for business. This is an odd charge coming from conservatives who profess to believe in the free market, since it echoes the AFL-CIO and liberals who'd just as soon have government dictate wages.

Our own view is that a philosophy of "free markets and free people" includes flexible labor markets. At a fundamental level, this is a matter of freedom and human dignity. These migrants are freely contracting for their labor, which is a basic human right. Far from selling their labor "cheap," they are traveling to the U.S. to sell it more dearly and improve their lives. Like millions of Americans before them, they and certainly their children climb the economic ladder as their skills and education increase.

We realize that critics are not inventing the manifold problems that can arise from illegal immigration: Trespassing, violent crime, overcrowded hospital emergency rooms, document counterfeiting, human smuggling, corpses in the Arizona desert, and a sense that the government has lost control of the border. But all of these result, ultimately, from too many immigrants chasing too few U.S. visas.

Those migrating here to make a better life for themselves and their families would much prefer to come legally. Give them more legal ways to enter the country, and we are likely to reduce illegal immigration far more effectively than any physical barrier along the Rio Grande ever could. This is not about rewarding bad behavior. It's about bringing immigration policy in line with economic and human reality. And the reality is that the U.S. has a growing demand for workers, while Mexico has both a large supply of such workers and too few jobs at home.

Some conservatives concede this point in theory but then insist that liberal immigration is no longer possible in a modern welfare state, which breeds dependency in a way that the America of a century ago did not. But the immigrants who arrive here come to work, not sit on the dole. And thanks to welfare reform, the welfare rolls have declined despite a surge in illegal immigration in the past decade.

The real claims that illegals make on public services are education, which can't be withheld because of a 1982 Supreme Court ruling (Plyer v. Doe), and health care, especially emergency rooms. Since denying urgent medical treatment is immoral, the answer again is to legalize cross-border labor flows and remove government obstacles to affordable health insurance. As for education, even illegals pay for public schools through the indirect property taxes they pay in rent. Overall, immigrants contribute far more to our economy than they extract in public benefits.

......

You can read the rest below, but I think you get the jest of it, which is contrary to your viewpoint (which you believe to be a traditional conservative voice).

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/fe...ml?id=110008632

[Ban Hammer 13,230]

Steven, what would you know about "traditional conservative values"? You actually have no idea what I consider to be "traditionally conservative", if I consider my views to be "traditionally conservative",or even if I place a value on "traditional conservativism", so you can't tell if my views measure up or not. You like to say that the anti-illegals are a minority, but that you don't know either. The fact is, there is a lot you don't know.

geg is back

[natty bumppo 289]

Steven, what would you know about "traditional conservative values"? You actually have no idea what I consider to be "traditionally conservative", if I consider my views to be "traditionally conservative",or even if I place a value on "traditional conservativism", so you can't tell if my views measure up or not. You like to say that the anti-illegals are a minority, but that you don't know either. The fact is, there is a lot you don't know.

geg is back

geg ...