U.S. citizen arrested under state's new anti-illegal immigrant law, Hispanic advocate says

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

From the Wall Street Journal (July 2006)

Those migrating here to make a better life for themselves and their families would much prefer to come legally. Give them more legal ways to enter the country, and we are likely to reduce illegal immigration far more effectively than any physical barrier along the Rio Grande ever could. This is not about rewarding bad behavior. It's about bringing immigration policy in line with economic and human reality. And the reality is that the U.S. has a growing demand for workers, while Mexico has both a large supply of such workers and too few jobs at home.

What a different reality 2007 is. The dollar is becoming worthless and the economy has stalled.

I do not know who is more oblivious to reality. Someone who promotes the use of cheap workers while the economy has stagnated and will probably fall into recession. Or the illegal immigrants who have chosen the worst economy to come to..

The US economy could be in the toilet and it would still be infinitely preferable for migrants than staying in Mexico.

After all the richest man in the entire WORLD lives there. Mexico's GDP rank is 14 out of 194 countries; Hardly a 3rd world nation..

The reality is that these people simply do not want to wait their turn, like everybody else, and have jumped the line. Nothing else to it.

PS In terms of living standards, going from a Datsun to a 1983 Honda Civic is hardly an upgrade..

Well again you're making a fairly big assumption here that the wealth in Mexico is distributed evenly, as opposed to being concentrated in the hands of a very few, very rich people.

So whether it doesn't meet the criteria for 3rd world nation (on paper), it probably doesn't mean much with regard to the daily experience of the general population.

[Heracles 417]

In all, since you are so against illegal immigration, you are very careful about where you spend your money because you don't want anything to get into the hands of those you despise so. You are totally okay with paying a bit more if you can be sure that it's because the services provided are provided by people who have to be paid legally, because they are here legally. Of course, since you're human, you may make mistakes and inadvertently pay for a service or a good and your payment somehow trickles down to an illegal. Understandable. But for the most part, you would never take advantage of cheap labor or goods and knowingly let your hard-earned money find it's way to an illegal. Right? Because coming down hard on their presence yet benefiting from the lower costs of their services would be hypocritical, and non of teh anti-immigation folks are hypocritical!

Does the same theory apply to the use of child labor? I think most people are not aware of who uses illegal immigrants.

Anyway, this whole argument of cheaper prices is a bunch of BS. Ultimately the employer is the one who benefits from illegal immigrants. They are pretty much charging the same but are simply pocketing more money themselves. Their profiteering comes at the expense of other Americans by way of reduced tax revenue, basically not paying their share, as well as reduced opportunities for poorer and unskilled Americans.

PS Don't compare legal immigration to someone simply jumping a boarder as they see fit..

Edited November 7, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[peejay 327]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

i guess being prudent does not enter into the equation. now if someone wants to jump on that train of heartbreak that's probably gonna have a wreck down the line, that's their choice.

So are you saying I'm on a path to a wreck? I don't get your point. Just because I married a once illegal doesn't mean I'm on the path towards a wreck or heartbreak. I'd suffice it to say my time away from Javi while we waited on his waiver to be processed wasn't any worse than any other couple's time away from each other. Except that our time was probably shorter.

As far as whoever it was that said they wouldn't marry an illegal. I'm so glad you were fortunate enough to decide who you fell in love with. Just so happens when you fall in love with an illegal, the easiest way to get them here is to marry them, then show what hardships it would be to have them not come back. So, you'd basically be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't marry them before carting them back off to their home country. And don't even jump on the band wagon of you just married him to get him his visa. Because that's not true. I'd have married him even if he didn't get his visa. My love for him isn't based on his immigration status.

how many have we seen that have had a train wreck of heartbreak? just because you marry one does not guarantee they will get here. remember miss liss?

Unfortunately Miss Liss' Javier was arrested and deported. That makes the situation a lot more complicated than voluntary departure.

[Bootylicious!! 2]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

i guess being prudent does not enter into the equation. now if someone wants to jump on that train of heartbreak that's probably gonna have a wreck down the line, that's their choice.

So are you saying I'm on a path to a wreck? I don't get your point. Just because I married a once illegal doesn't mean I'm on the path towards a wreck or heartbreak. I'd suffice it to say my time away from Javi while we waited on his waiver to be processed wasn't any worse than any other couple's time away from each other. Except that our time was probably shorter.

As far as whoever it was that said they wouldn't marry an illegal. I'm so glad you were fortunate enough to decide who you fell in love with. Just so happens when you fall in love with an illegal, the easiest way to get them here is to marry them, then show what hardships it would be to have them not come back. So, you'd basically be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't marry them before carting them back off to their home country. And don't even jump on the band wagon of you just married him to get him his visa. Because that's not true. I'd have married him even if he didn't get his visa. My love for him isn't based on his immigration status.

how many have we seen that have had a train wreck of heartbreak? just because you marry one does not guarantee they will get here. remember miss liss?

Yeah, we were best friends. So I happen to know a lot more about her situation than anyone here. There were a lot of issues with that I won't get into here because it's not my place. Just saying, she's not a good example. I do realize it's not a guarantee. That's usually because there are other extenuating circumstances, like they broke laws or something else. Again, I realize they didn't choose who they fell in love with either but they go into it with eyes wide open realizing their spouse might not come back. That's a risk they take when they step foot back into Mexico with those crimes, etc on their files. It doesn't mean they are destined for a wreck or heartbreak. It just means their lives may take a different turn. If Javi had been denied, I would have moved to Mexico. I wouldn't have liked it. But I made a commitment to him and I would have stuck by him no matter what.

[Heracles 417]

After all the richest man in the entire WORLD lives there. Mexico's GDP rank is 14 out of 194 countries; Hardly a 3rd world nation..

The reality is that these people simply do not want to wait their turn, like everybody else, and have jumped the line. Nothing else to it.

PS In terms of living standards, going from a Datsun to a 1983 Honda Civic is hardly an upgrade..

Well again you're making a fairly big assumption here that the wealth in Mexico is distributed evenly, as opposed to being concentrated in the hands of a very few, very rich people.

So whether it doesn't meet the criteria for 3rd world nation (on paper), it probably doesn't mean much with regard to the daily experience of the general population.

That workings of Mexico is not Americans problem. Nor should it be. Corruption is high in Mexico. The wealth gap is extremely huge there. America should not be be forced to deal with Mexico's poor.

[no name 1]

Geez, Steven. Why don't you just come out and blankly state that you're pro-illegal and give the exchange some balance? One of the reasons that the discussion is often so black and white is because some of us are more committed to what feels good (having compassion for illegals and law-breaking) than doing good (standing up for our country's sovereignty).

I have loads of compassion, but my compassion is reserved for those who respect our borders and our laws. I have no compassion for illegals and would never marry or employ one. I have no compassion for accomodating illegals just because they're already here. I have no compassion for politicians and Latino supremicists who kiss Mexico's azz and try to tell us that we're racist because we're against measures that open the door to voter fraud. I have no compassion for what illegals and their broods have done to destroy our schools systems, even going so far as to import Mexico's curriculum into American schools.

My capacity for compassion for illegals and their supporters was shot by the hypocrisy of our government's agenda to privatize profits from cheap labor while holding out the hat to taxpayers for the costs illegals impose on our social structure. It was shot by illegals and their sychophants marching in my streets, telling me that I need to devalue my citizenship and hand over its privileges to them. It was shot by the underhanded manipulations of politicians putting forth propositions that erode the distinction between legal and legal, sovereignty and capitulation to the New World Order. My compassion was shot by the hypocrisy of a foreign government that shoots to kill at its southern border, yet demands, and gets, leniancy for its trespassers here.

That list is not all inclusive; I could go on. I don't need no stinkin political party to represent my views; Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin. They have both proven to be worthless and ineffective when it comes to the bread and butter issues of the common man. Democracy was never a spectator sport and I have never played it that way. My representatives now know me by name. I've made sure of it. I am heard, and not just on this forum. Fear is what motivates politicians; make sure they feel the fear.

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

Leave, return to your home country and come here the legal way ... otherwise you're an illegal alien who is always at risk of being removed from my life for a long period of time. (every day is a new opportunity to be discovered and deported ... banished from the country). If you can't abide by the laws of my country and do the right things so we can be together ... then there is no respect.

Oh wait ... that would mean .. the person would be just like the rest of us on vj that observe the laws and complete the visa process ... how unfair (sarcasm)

Do you give this advice on the board when someone says 'My wife came here on a tourist visa that is now expired, what do we do to get her a green card?' Because I certainly hope not.

Yet another leap.

Personal opinion does not translate into advice given, does it?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

After all the richest man in the entire WORLD lives there. Mexico's GDP rank is 14 out of 194 countries; Hardly a 3rd world nation..

The reality is that these people simply do not want to wait their turn, like everybody else, and have jumped the line. Nothing else to it.

PS In terms of living standards, going from a Datsun to a 1983 Honda Civic is hardly an upgrade..

Well again you're making a fairly big assumption here that the wealth in Mexico is distributed evenly, as opposed to being concentrated in the hands of a very few, very rich people.

So whether it doesn't meet the criteria for 3rd world nation (on paper), it probably doesn't mean much with regard to the daily experience of the general population.

That workings of Mexico is not Americans problem. Nor should it be. Corruption is high in Mexico. The wealth gap is extremely huge there. America should not be be forced to deal with Mexico's poor.

"Should not" is all well and good but it isn't the reality. The reality is we are dealing with that country's poor, and the poverty and unemployment problems there have spilled over the border into this country.

As I said earlier - I don't like that a downturn in the economy here can cause a recession in the UK, but whether I like it or not it doesn't change the simple truth that our economy and general quality of life are to some extent, inter-related.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Number 6

[Ban Hammer 13,230]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

i guess being prudent does not enter into the equation. now if someone wants to jump on that train of heartbreak that's probably gonna have a wreck down the line, that's their choice.

So are you saying I'm on a path to a wreck? I don't get your point. Just because I married a once illegal doesn't mean I'm on the path towards a wreck or heartbreak. I'd suffice it to say my time away from Javi while we waited on his waiver to be processed wasn't any worse than any other couple's time away from each other. Except that our time was probably shorter.

As far as whoever it was that said they wouldn't marry an illegal. I'm so glad you were fortunate enough to decide who you fell in love with. Just so happens when you fall in love with an illegal, the easiest way to get them here is to marry them, then show what hardships it would be to have them not come back. So, you'd basically be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't marry them before carting them back off to their home country. And don't even jump on the band wagon of you just married him to get him his visa. Because that's not true. I'd have married him even if he didn't get his visa. My love for him isn't based on his immigration status.

how many have we seen that have had a train wreck of heartbreak? just because you marry one does not guarantee they will get here. remember miss liss?

Yeah, we were best friends. So I happen to know a lot more about her situation than anyone here. There were a lot of issues with that I won't get into here because it's not my place. Just saying, she's not a good example. I do realize it's not a guarantee. That's usually because there are other extenuating circumstances, like they broke laws or something else. Again, I realize they didn't choose who they fell in love with either but they go into it with eyes wide open realizing their spouse might not come back. That's a risk they take when they step foot back into Mexico with those crimes, etc on their files. It doesn't mean they are destined for a wreck or heartbreak. It just means their lives may take a different turn. If Javi had been denied, I would have moved to Mexico. I wouldn't have liked it. But I made a commitment to him and I would have stuck by him no matter what.

if it's any consolation, i was rooting for her to get that visa. however, i feel this is still a good example as that is what pedroh was talking about. next time you talk to miss liss please pass along a hello from me and my warm wishes that she does well.

[Heracles 417]

After all the richest man in the entire WORLD lives there. Mexico's GDP rank is 14 out of 194 countries; Hardly a 3rd world nation..

The reality is that these people simply do not want to wait their turn, like everybody else, and have jumped the line. Nothing else to it.

PS In terms of living standards, going from a Datsun to a 1983 Honda Civic is hardly an upgrade..

Well again you're making a fairly big assumption here that the wealth in Mexico is distributed evenly, as opposed to being concentrated in the hands of a very few, very rich people.

So whether it doesn't meet the criteria for 3rd world nation (on paper), it probably doesn't mean much with regard to the daily experience of the general population.

That workings of Mexico is not Americans problem. Nor should it be. Corruption is high in Mexico. The wealth gap is extremely huge there. America should not be be forced to deal with Mexico's poor.

"Should not" is all well and good but it isn't the reality. The reality is we are dealing with that country's poor, and the poverty and unemployment problems here have spilled over the border into this country.

As I said earlier - I don't like that a downturn in the economy here can cause a recession in the UK, but whether I like it or not it doesn't change the simple truth that our economy and general quality of life are to some extent, inter-related.

"Spilled over" because there is no proper fence to prevent them from doing so; at their leisure. Its not as if nothing can be done. OK is a good example of what can be done, with ease, to stem the flow and growth of illegal immigrants. Now combine these measures with tough penalties for anyone hiring or providing services to illegal immigrants and presto; illegal immigration is cut at the root.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Raspect 0]

are you sure they don't belive in population control dev?

yes, they do have campaigns for responsible procreation, but there's one big problem.. the church.. when my dad started practicing medicine they'd send him to small towns to give birth control talks and whatnot.. but, padre would talk about it on sunday mass, and.. condoms in the trash.. sad..

I think you answered your own question.

As I see it people are angry at the migrants because of the govts inability/unwillingness to do diddly squat about the problem. In the meantime you have people living in poverty on the other side of the border who have, for whatever reason decided that their immediate needs supersede considerations of immigration law. That is that reality - regardless of whether you want to wag your finger in the face of a person for being "immoral", or lacking "personal responsibility".

a.k.a. lacking personal responsibilty to find work/feed their family legally.

C. works with a couple Hispanic guys. Mexican originally, but here legally as far as he knows. As I've mentioned before, it's not really a personal responsibility thing, or a greed thing. They're from Mexico, and they hope to go back, but making $1200 a month as an assistant on an oil rig is like making $12,000 back home. There are no jobs back home. It's easy enough to say 'find work legally', but Mexico has 25% underemployment in a poor nation. Working legally probably means watching your family die.

This is not an argument for open borders. But when you say, 'why don't they just work legally' it sounds a little bit like a celebrity wondering why if the Ethiopians are so hungry in the famine, why don't they just go to the grocery store.

Mexico's population doubles every 20 years, perhaps they should have smaller families... I mean if you cannot afford to feed 3 (example) children, prehaps you shouldn't HAVE 3 children. Personal responsibility...

Scroll back 2 pages, 'they' don't believe in it.

Where does Hillary stand on immigration, Dev?

And whta does Hillary have to do with this conversation about an Oklahoma law?

Oh come on, Dev - this thread went into several different directions several pages ago and it hasn't stopped you from talking about other aspects of the debate.

Seriously though, how does Hillary's stand on illegal immigration stand with you?

I am not discussing my politics here, remember? And Hillary was not brought into this until you did it. Lame attempt at stirring it up!

Yeah Mr. FancyPants, bringing up politics in this convo!!!! How dare you!!!!!!!!!!! How could you even think of asking her that. It just has no relevance. Back to the subject!! hahaha It was a definite legitamate try to see what is going on. But hate to admit it, you got shot down with pure logic. NO TALKING ABOUT POLITICS!! hahahahah what??????????????

[GabachaYucateca 0]

Boo-Ya...what an easy way to wahs your hands of it! You can say that hiring illegal immigrants doesn't drive down costs of labor and only benefits the employers, which is fine and dandy.

In the meantime, if you knowingly accept services from an illegal, cheaper or not, you are complicit in the perpetuation of why being here is so profitable for them! By not using services provided by illegals on a large scale, you will make their being here redundant and unprofitable for them.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

After all the richest man in the entire WORLD lives there. Mexico's GDP rank is 14 out of 194 countries; Hardly a 3rd world nation..

The reality is that these people simply do not want to wait their turn, like everybody else, and have jumped the line. Nothing else to it.

PS In terms of living standards, going from a Datsun to a 1983 Honda Civic is hardly an upgrade..

Well again you're making a fairly big assumption here that the wealth in Mexico is distributed evenly, as opposed to being concentrated in the hands of a very few, very rich people.

So whether it doesn't meet the criteria for 3rd world nation (on paper), it probably doesn't mean much with regard to the daily experience of the general population.

That workings of Mexico is not Americans problem. Nor should it be. Corruption is high in Mexico. The wealth gap is extremely huge there. America should not be be forced to deal with Mexico's poor.

"Should not" is all well and good but it isn't the reality. The reality is we are dealing with that country's poor, and the poverty and unemployment problems here have spilled over the border into this country.

As I said earlier - I don't like that a downturn in the economy here can cause a recession in the UK, but whether I like it or not it doesn't change the simple truth that our economy and general quality of life are to some extent, inter-related.

"Spilled over" because there is no proper fence to prevent them from doing so; at their leisure. Its not as if nothing can be done. OK is a good example of what can be done, with ease, to stem the flow and growth of illegal immigrants. Now combine these measures with tough penalties for anyone hiring or providing services to illegal immigrants and presto; illegal immigration is cut at the root.

Except that you still have a pool of very poor, desperate people whose motivation to do what they do is essentially unchanged.

[Bootylicious!! 2]

what would you tell him? I love you but we can't get married, because I'd be enabling you. I guess the other people here that married an illegal had that question.. care about 'soverignity' or about my happiness..

i guess being prudent does not enter into the equation. now if someone wants to jump on that train of heartbreak that's probably gonna have a wreck down the line, that's their choice.

So are you saying I'm on a path to a wreck? I don't get your point. Just because I married a once illegal doesn't mean I'm on the path towards a wreck or heartbreak. I'd suffice it to say my time away from Javi while we waited on his waiver to be processed wasn't any worse than any other couple's time away from each other. Except that our time was probably shorter.

As far as whoever it was that said they wouldn't marry an illegal. I'm so glad you were fortunate enough to decide who you fell in love with. Just so happens when you fall in love with an illegal, the easiest way to get them here is to marry them, then show what hardships it would be to have them not come back. So, you'd basically be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't marry them before carting them back off to their home country. And don't even jump on the band wagon of you just married him to get him his visa. Because that's not true. I'd have married him even if he didn't get his visa. My love for him isn't based on his immigration status.

how many have we seen that have had a train wreck of heartbreak? just because you marry one does not guarantee they will get here. remember miss liss?

Yeah, we were best friends. So I happen to know a lot more about her situation than anyone here. There were a lot of issues with that I won't get into here because it's not my place. Just saying, she's not a good example. I do realize it's not a guarantee. That's usually because there are other extenuating circumstances, like they broke laws or something else. Again, I realize they didn't choose who they fell in love with either but they go into it with eyes wide open realizing their spouse might not come back. That's a risk they take when they step foot back into Mexico with those crimes, etc on their files. It doesn't mean they are destined for a wreck or heartbreak. It just means their lives may take a different turn. If Javi had been denied, I would have moved to Mexico. I wouldn't have liked it. But I made a commitment to him and I would have stuck by him no matter what.

if it's any consolation, i was rooting for her to get that visa. however, i feel this is still a good example as that is what pedroh was talking about. next time you talk to miss liss please pass along a hello from me and my warm wishes that she does well.

Unfortunately we don't talk anymore. Things in our lives took different directions and we just moved on. I'm sure she would appreciate what you said though. She always thought everyone on here was rooting against her.

[Heracles 417]

Boo-Ya...what an easy way to wahs your hands of it! You can say that hiring illegal immigrants doesn't drive down costs of labor and only benefits the employers, which is fine and dandy.

In the meantime, if you knowingly accept services from an illegal, cheaper or not, you are complicit in the perpetuation of why being here is so profitable for them! By not using services provided by illegals on a large scale, you will make their being here redundant and unprofitable for them.

I cannot go and ask for credentials of the employees of businesses I deal with. It is up to congress to propose measures which enforce the rules and laws of this nation.

The American congress is starting to look more like the UN as each day goes by. Where nothing gets done because individuals have their own personal agendas with certain groups rather than listening to the majority of American people.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Boo-Ya...what an easy way to wahs your hands of it! You can say that hiring illegal immigrants doesn't drive down costs of labor and only benefits the employers, which is fine and dandy.

In the meantime, if you knowingly accept services from an illegal, cheaper or not, you are complicit in the perpetuation of why being here is so profitable for them! By not using services provided by illegals on a large scale, you will make their being here redundant and unprofitable for them.

On a tangential note - a point was made earlier that world poverty, famine etc should basically be accept as an "as is" for which nothing can really be done.

Does this mean that if say - western corporations like Tesco who buy produce from countries like Zimbabwe (who can't feed their own populations), and we continue to purchase those products at the store - that we are at least on some level complicit in their problems?