U.S. citizen arrested under state's new anti-illegal immigrant law, Hispanic advocate says

[SMOKE 1,426]

***************BREAKING NEWS***************

Oklahoma has an anti illegal immigration law & we don't care if you like it..

[Peikko 1,575]

Why does it matter one way or another? If you are suggesting that there be some more rigid interpretation of border security to stop the surge of terrorists from Mexico, I think you will probably be disappointed.

Border security can only go so far while the two countries want a free flow of traffic between the two countries which, I suggest both countries still do. A wall is really not going affect terrorists one way or another.

[LaL 418]

This is one step away from rationalizing (justifying?) (legalizing?) stealing because you're poor and hungry.

and robbing a bank because you don't have any cash.

Why take responsibilty when it's so much easier to blame the govt, not yourself! That seems to be the ongoing justification here.

If you don't want neighborhood kids stealing your car, you lock your car and take the keys in the house! But by all means, claim that you have the right to leave your keys in an unlocked car and have it be there in the morning.

Nice try. Apples & oranges.

How so? Just because you say so - seems to be a perfectly valid analogy to me.

Blaming the guy for stealing your car when you were negligent about its security is not that far removed from blaming the migrant worker for seeing to his economic needs as a result of decades worth of negligent/non-existent border security.

Stealing a car is nothing like living & working illegally in a country. That is a daily drain on our resources, not a one off insurance payment.

Well its a general analogy - not pretending its anything more than that.

what? You asked how so & I replied showing 'how so'.....

Laughable.

As I said - I'm not going to inject any more anger and vitriol into this thread than there is already, so I'd suggest parking the attitude to keep this on a civil footing.

Whether you want to accept it or not - there are similarities in that analogy as LAL also expounded on.

As I see it people are angry at the migrants because of the govts inability/unwillingness to do diddly squat about the problem. In the meantime you have people living in poverty on the other side of the border who have, for whatever reason decided that their immediate needs supersede considerations of immigration law. That is that reality - regardless of whether you want to wag your finger in the face of a person for being "immoral", or lacking "personal responsibility".

The anaolgy has everything in it that paralles what we are discussing here. Personal responsibility.

- The car owner has personal responsibility to not allow the opportunity to have their vehicle stolen.

- The government/borders have a responsibility to tighten the brorders for all the reasons why there are issues with

it not being tightened

Have personal responsibility, absoluetly - however it is massively unrealistic to expect anyone to have personal responsibility for anyone else but themselves.

Your car - you protect it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And that reality is lacking personal responisibilty.

I must admit I do dislike soundbites, and that one in particular. However, I rather confused as to how "personal responsibility" is appropriate to this argument.

Lets see - you're poor and living on a subsistence level - does your conception of "personal responsibility" include complying with a vague law that conflicts with your immediate needs and those of your family, or attending to those needs?

I find it very hard to judge the actions of desperate people - thats not to say that I agree with what they are doing, but I do find it interesting that people are so gung-ho about solutions that deliberately don't address the root of the problem (because Mexico isn't 'our' problem).

[♥JP♥ 5]

Why does it matter one way or another? If you are suggesting that there be some more rigid interpretation of border security to stop the surge of terrorists from Mexico, I think you will probably be disappointed.

Border security can only go so far while the two countries want a free flow of traffic between the two countries which, I suggest both countries still do. A wall is really not going affect terrorists one way or another.

Its funny, I say one thing, you quote me as saying another. When did I say "surge of terrorists"? Its quite easy to get into the US from Mexico, legally OR illegally. Check it out, it might just surprise you. Tightening the borders is to our benifit, legally and illegally.

[no name 1]

The anaolgy has everything in it that paralles what we are discussing here. Personal responsibility.

- The car owner has personal responsibility to not allow the opportunity to have their vehicle stolen.

- The government/borders have a responsibility to tighten the brorders for all the reasons why there are issues with

it not being tightened

Have personal responsibility, absoluetly - however it is massively unrealistic to expect anyone to have personal responsibility for anyone else but themselves.

Your car - you protect it.

So let's all do those things that are illegal, yet we can get away with.

You know, no need for personal responsibilty & all. Blame anyone but yourself! Anarchy *IS* A-OK - according to some in this thread.

Edited November 6, 2007 by devilette

[Peikko 1,575]

If you mean, am I 100% certain that terrorist operate like this, well, obviously not, I am not, nor have I ever been a member of a terrorist organisation and so what they actually do is not something I can know.

However, it's not really that hard to make assessments of likely behavior based on actual difficulties presented by different scenarios. It makes sense to me that someone who wanted to commit a terrorist atrocity would do their utmost to attract as little attention as possible by using the easiest and least illegal means to get to the position of committing that atrocity without being arrested before being able to carry it out. That is my logic for suggesting that a wall would have no effect on the activities of terrorists.

[Raspect 0]

ENRICH is the word you used? hahaha dude open your eyes! SURVIVE is the word, try to make a living w/2-4 dlls an hour and lets see if you feel the same way.

People are just too damn self centered, and it is nonesense to try to change them,

YEAH

CHARLES IS ALL CATTLE AND A LITTLE HAT WITH BIG TROUSERS FULL OF SH!T

AS WE SAY HERE IN BOBOFOOL LAND

THIS GUY IS A PURE BOBO

A PURE FOOL

AND ANYONE WHO SAYS ANY DIFFERENT, JUST READ THIS POST, MAKES YOU WANT TO CRY TO KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE THIS, AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST

IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CORNFIELD, THERE ARE 4 NORTHS, WITH ALL HAT AND NO BULL AND COW TO RIDE!!

And yes, there is nonsense to try to change them. They love hate. It is good, to some. That is why I dont try to hate, I just go the republican route and throw hate around. I figured "go the high road, be better" Then I look at the ###### that has gotten us. 6 years war, more poor people, more ultra rich people, less middle, a severely divided country and i said fucque it!! Charles is a a$$hole, and really it makes me sad saying this, as I truly think Nessa is a lawful, uprite, honorary citizen(world citizen)

[LaL 418]

The anaolgy has everything in it that paralles what we are discussing here. Personal responsibility.

- The car owner has personal responsibility to not allow the opportunity to have their vehicle stolen.

- The government/borders have a responsibility to tighten the brorders for all the reasons why there are issues with

it not being tightened

Have personal responsibility, absoluetly - however it is massively unrealistic to expect anyone to have personal responsibility for anyone else but themselves.

Your car - you protect it.

So let's all do those things that are illegal, yet we can get away with.

You know, no need for personal responsibilty & all. Blame anyone but yourself!

The point was missed.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The anaolgy has everything in it that paralles what we are discussing here. Personal responsibility.

- The car owner has personal responsibility to not allow the opportunity to have their vehicle stolen.

- The government/borders have a responsibility to tighten the brorders for all the reasons why there are issues with

it not being tightened

Have personal responsibility, absoluetly - however it is massively unrealistic to expect anyone to have personal responsibility for anyone else but themselves.

Your car - you protect it.

So let's all do those things that are illegal, yet we can get away with.

You know, no need for personal responsibilty & all. Blame anyone but yourself! Anarchy *IS* A-OK - according to some in this thread.

That's a bit hysterical don't you think? And exactly why a civilized, reasonable discussion about this subject seems to be completely impossible.

[no name 1]

As I see it people are angry at the migrants because of the govts inability/unwillingness to do diddly squat about the problem. In the meantime you have people living in poverty on the other side of the border who have, for whatever reason decided that their immediate needs supersede considerations of immigration law. That is that reality - regardless of whether you want to wag your finger in the face of a person for being "immoral", or lacking "personal responsibility".

a.k.a. lacking personal responsibilty to find work/feed their family legally.

[♥JP♥ 5]

If you mean, am I 100% certain that terrorist operate like this, well, obviously not, I am not, nor have I ever been a member of a terrorist organisation and so what they actually do is not something I can know.

However, it's not really that hard to make assessments of likely behavior based on actual difficulties presented by different scenarios. It makes sense to me that someone who wanted to commit a terrorist atrocity would do their utmost to attract as little attention as possible by using the easiest and least illegal means to get to the position of committing that atrocity without being arrested before being able to carry it out. That is my logic for suggesting that a wall would have no effect on the activities of terrorists.

I agree with you, logically it makes sense. However reality doesnt always follow logic. All I'm sayin is it doesnt hurt to be proactive.

[no name 1]

The anaolgy has everything in it that paralles what we are discussing here. Personal responsibility.

- The car owner has personal responsibility to not allow the opportunity to have their vehicle stolen.

- The government/borders have a responsibility to tighten the brorders for all the reasons why there are issues with

it not being tightened

Have personal responsibility, absoluetly - however it is massively unrealistic to expect anyone to have personal responsibility for anyone else but themselves.

Your car - you protect it.

So let's all do those things that are illegal, yet we can get away with.

You know, no need for personal responsibilty & all. Blame anyone but yourself!

The point was missed.

Whatever. I pointed out the flaws in your analogy earlier.

[Peikko 1,575]

There is only so far one can go with border security and still have free flow (which is a trade necessity). I do not for one moment believe that the US has either the motivation or the ability to scrutinise every person who goes through every border in a way that would satisfy your personal requirements.

[no name 1]

The anaolgy has everything in it that paralles what we are discussing here. Personal responsibility.

- The car owner has personal responsibility to not allow the opportunity to have their vehicle stolen.

- The government/borders have a responsibility to tighten the brorders for all the reasons why there are issues with

it not being tightened

Have personal responsibility, absoluetly - however it is massively unrealistic to expect anyone to have personal responsibility for anyone else but themselves.

Your car - you protect it.

So let's all do those things that are illegal, yet we can get away with.

You know, no need for personal responsibilty & all. Blame anyone but yourself! Anarchy *IS* A-OK - according to some in this thread.

That's a bit hysterical don't you think? And exactly why a civilized, reasonable discussion about this subject seems to be completely impossible.

Not really.

Several of you have pointed out that it's not the illegals fault, ONLY THE GOV'T. That would be classified as anarchy, no? Complete disregard for laws & govt?

an·ar·chy

–noun

1. a state of society without government or law.

2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.

3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.