Oklahoma targets illegal immigrants with tough new law

[russ 1]

BTW...the US Border Patrol checkpoint asks everyone "are you a US citizen". I have brown hair and blue eyes and have been asked this question by them on several occasions. I wasn't in the least bit offended...in fact...I was quite proud to state that I was a US citizen. What is there to cry about?

Try telling them to "#### off" and see where it gets you.

The US Constitution does not apply at POEs, as you have not entered the United States yet. You can be searched without a warrant, etc.

[russ 1]

So I could care less about the minor inconveneince of you having to occasionally be asked about your citizenship status. WHA F*@KING WHA!

And what if you can't prove your citizenship status? What should they do - detain you until you can prove it? The law or policy would need to be implemented equally for everyone. To be effective, it would need to be a major inconvenience. In Russia, you need to have an internal passport with you stating where you live, registered with the police, and up to date. If not, they arrest you (or you bribe the cop). We could have the same system here, but do we really want that? I don't want Checkpoint Charlie in the US.

I don't carry a passport with me every day, and I would prefer not to.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So I could care less about the minor inconveneince of you having to occasionally be asked about your citizenship status. WHA F*@KING WHA!

Well that really says it all really. You don't care - others do. Why is your opinion any more valid than theirs (or mine)?

On that point about "minor inconvenience" its interesting that you phrase it that way (especially after explaining how racial profiling is 'necessary') - because its not an issue for you (i.e. you won't be the one being inconvenienced) therefore its an acceptable price for others to pay. Would you go to Vegas and gamble with someone else's money? Somehow I doubt it...

Seems rather selfish to me - and before you trap off about my alleged beliefs any more than you already have - no I do not support, condone or agree with illegal immigration; so if you're relying on that small strand of hope to bash me over the head I'm sorry to disappoint.

And you also don't need to trot out how much illegal immigration costs me, you, or this country - it doesn't magically change a bad idea into a good one.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Number 6

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The 5th Amendment

People forget their rights.

The police are under no obligation to tell you your rights or even tell you the truth, so they lie every day in the course of their job. The constitution does not differentiate rights of citizens and the rights of illegals - everyone here has the same rights. Any changes to law have the same impact on me as they do illegals.

Generally, you don't have to give the police ID, you don't need to answer their questions, you don't need to submit to a search, you do not need to let them in your house, and you don't need to prove your identity or immigration status. If they convince you to volunteer this information, it is your own fault.

Watch this - my wife was shocked that she had these rights in the US:

Awesome video. Thanks.

[SMOKE 1,426]

So I could care less about the minor inconveneince of you having to occasionally be asked about your citizenship status. WHA F*@KING WHA!

Why is your opinion any more valid than theirs (or mine)?

i would like to ask you the same question.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So I could care less about the minor inconveneince of you having to occasionally be asked about your citizenship status. WHA F*@KING WHA!

Why is your opinion any more valid than theirs (or mine)?

i would like to ask you the same question.

Well the answer is really very simple. I never said my opinion was more "valid", but then I don't believe I've ever gone out of my way to say "I don't care what anyone thinks - I am right, you are wrong", and certainly not when it comes to condoning an unfair, discriminatory policy that I am supporting for purely selfish reasons and expecting others to pay for it.

Addie seems to think that racial profiling is justifiable, I think its inherently unfair; and I also think he/she would change his tune pretty quickly if he/she were the one being directly inconvenienced by traffic stops and ID checks, rather than the vague, intangible inconvenience he/she seems to think is posed to his daily life by illegal immigrants.

[russ 1]

Well the answer is really very simple. I never said my opinion was more "valid", but then I don't believe I've ever gone out of my way to say "I don't care what anyone thinks - I am right, you are wrong", and certainly not when it comes to condoning an unfair, discriminatory policy that I am supporting for purely selfish reasons and expecting others to pay for it.

Addie seems to think that racial profiling is justifiable, I think its inherently unfair; and I also think he/she would change his tune pretty quickly if he/she were the one being directly inconvenienced by traffic stops and ID checks, rather than the vague, intangible inconvenience he/she seems to think is posed to his daily life by illegal immigrants.

Too many people have already given thier lives to protect the constitution in the US over the last 200 years. 50 years ago the civil rights movement at least started giving these rights to everyone. And now we are expected to just give them away? Terrorism and illegal aliens are just an excuse. A slight of hand.

You have about a 6 in 1,000,000 chance of dying from terrorism in the US this year. That's about 1800 terrorism deaths, most of which will happen outside the US. And even those numbers feel inflated to me. What about the 650,000 that die from heart disease? Or 550,000 that will die from cancer? Or 40,000 that will die in cars? These are much bigger threats, yet there is no trillion dollar war, no erosion of rights.

[SMOKE 1,426]

So I could care less about the minor inconveneince of you having to occasionally be asked about your citizenship status. WHA F*@KING WHA!

Why is your opinion any more valid than theirs (or mine)?

i would like to ask you the same question.

Well the answer is really very simple. I never said my opinion was more "valid", but then I don't believe I've ever gone out of my way to say "I don't care what anyone thinks - I am right, you are wrong", and certainly not when it comes to condoning an unfair, discriminatory policy that I am supporting for purely selfish reasons and expecting others to pay for it.

Addie seems to think that racial profiling is justifiable, I think its inherently unfair; and I also think he/she would change his tune pretty quickly if he/she were the one being directly inconvenienced by traffic stops and ID checks, rather than the vague, intangible inconvenience he/she seems to think is posed to his daily life by illegal immigrants.

ok, just makin sure you're still proped up on that high horse, passing judgement on others. let me know when "THE WORLD ACCORDING TO #6" gets published.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Well the answer is really very simple. I never said my opinion was more "valid", but then I don't believe I've ever gone out of my way to say "I don't care what anyone thinks - I am right, you are wrong", and certainly not when it comes to condoning an unfair, discriminatory policy that I am supporting for purely selfish reasons and expecting others to pay for it.

Addie seems to think that racial profiling is justifiable, I think its inherently unfair; and I also think he/she would change his tune pretty quickly if he/she were the one being directly inconvenienced by traffic stops and ID checks, rather than the vague, intangible inconvenience he/she seems to think is posed to his daily life by illegal immigrants.

Too many people have already given thier lives to protect the constitution in the US over the last 200 years. 50 years ago the civil rights movement at least started giving these rights to everyone. And now we are expected to just give them away? Terrorism and illegal aliens are just an excuse. A slight of hand.

You have about a 6 in 1,000,000 chance of dying from terrorism in the US this year. That's about 1800 terrorism deaths, most of which will happen outside the US. And even those numbers feel inflated to me. What about the 650,000 that die from heart disease? Or 550,000 that will die from cancer? Or 40,000 that will die in cars? These are much bigger threats, yet there is no trillion dollar war, no erosion of rights.

Amen that and Hallelujah to our Constitution. I'm amazed by that video...I've watched a lot of those reality cop shows and thought I was completely at the mercy of an officer should I get pulled over.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So I could care less about the minor inconveneince of you having to occasionally be asked about your citizenship status. WHA F*@KING WHA!

Why is your opinion any more valid than theirs (or mine)?

i would like to ask you the same question.

Well the answer is really very simple. I never said my opinion was more "valid", but then I don't believe I've ever gone out of my way to say "I don't care what anyone thinks - I am right, you are wrong", and certainly not when it comes to condoning an unfair, discriminatory policy that I am supporting for purely selfish reasons and expecting others to pay for it.

Addie seems to think that racial profiling is justifiable, I think its inherently unfair; and I also think he/she would change his tune pretty quickly if he/she were the one being directly inconvenienced by traffic stops and ID checks, rather than the vague, intangible inconvenience he/she seems to think is posed to his daily life by illegal immigrants.

ok, just makin sure you're still proped up on that high horse, passing judgement on others. let me know when "THE WORLD ACCORDING TO #6" gets published.

How's about you let just me know when you want to participate in a discussion about thread topic instead of personal backbiting (which again - you started)?

As for the bolded, thanks for that bit of condescension - as if you are that important or influential either. Perhaps you'd do well to remind yourself that this is just an internet forum. You might have forgotten...

[yassmine2878 1]

[russ 1]

Amen that and Hallelujah to our Constitution. I'm amazed by that video...I've watched a lot of those reality cop shows and thought I was completely at the mercy of an officer should I get pulled over.

That is exactly what they want people to think. You should never be questioned by police without your own lawyer present. Lawyers are a lot cheaper than most people think, especially if you already have one. The whole point of the police asking you questions is to gather evidence against you. There are a few times you aren't entitled to a lawyer - if you suspected of DUI, they don't need to allow you to contact one until you take whatever chemical test they want.

Doing what the police want (answering their questions) is usually not in your interest. Why do people do it? They probably don't know any better. And they are probably guilty of something, but that really isn't the point. The advice in that video above is pretty good.

I've been pulled over by the police many times for absolutely no reason (your car is dirty, your headlights aren't bright enough, etc). It is as fishing expedition. Just because you don't think you are doing anything wrong does not mean you should let the police do whatever they want. I've asked many times if they could search my trunk - my answer is always no, even though there is nothing there anyway.

Two key points - NEVER admit to any crime (going 2 miles over the speed limit) and ASK if you are free to go. When the police pull you over, there is a reason they park behind you. You are not being detained. In theory, you are free to leave. You can't just drive away, but they do need to either arrest you, or let you go when you ask.

Another good fact to know - depending on your state, if the police ask you to perform a field sobriety test, you can say no (and you probably should). You need to do the breath or blood test, but this one may be optional. The breatalyzer is actually not so accurate, so you can show up as drunk when you aren't. The video from these field tests doesn't prove much, but if it looks bad it will be shown to a jury. Walking on gravel at night isn't an easy thing to do for most sober people.

I'm not a lawyer, please, don't believe any of this.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Amen that and Hallelujah to our Constitution. I'm amazed by that video...I've watched a lot of those reality cop shows and thought I was completely at the mercy of an officer should I get pulled over.

That is exactly what they want people to think. You should never be questioned by police without your own lawyer present. Lawyers are a lot cheaper than most people think, especially if you already have one. The whole point of the police asking you questions is to gather evidence against you. There are a few times you aren't entitled to a lawyer - if you suspected of DUI, they don't need to allow you to contact one until you take whatever chemical test they want.

Doing what the police want (answering their questions) is usually not in your interest. Why do people do it? They probably don't know any better. And they are probably guilty of something, but that really isn't the point. The advice in that video above is pretty good.

I've been pulled over by the police many times for absolutely no reason (your car is dirty, your headlights aren't bright enough, etc). It is as fishing expedition. Just because you don't think you are doing anything wrong does not mean you should let the police do whatever they want. I've asked many times if they could search my trunk - my answer is always no, even though there is nothing there anyway.

Two key points - NEVER admit to any crime (going 2 miles over the speed limit) and ASK if you are free to go. When the police pull you over, there is a reason they park behind you. You are not being detained. In theory, you are free to leave. You can't just drive away, but they do need to either arrest you, or let you go when you ask.

Another good fact to know - depending on your state, if the police ask you to perform a field sobriety test, you can say no (and you probably should). You need to do the breath or blood test, but this one may be optional. The breatalyzer is actually not so accurate, so you can show up as drunk when you aren't. The video from these field tests doesn't prove much, but if it looks bad it will be shown to a jury. Walking on gravel at night isn't an easy thing to do for most sober people.

I'm not a lawyer, please, don't believe any of this.

Given that, I don't see how a traffic cop could ask anyone for proof of citizenship. Or at least we are not required to answer. I'm still baffled why so many here who have gone through the legal tangles of immigration would want to make things any more difficult for themselves and their foreign spouses.

If I'm to understand the Oklahoma Law, I could in effect be held criminally liable if I were transporting my foreign wife through the state and got pulled over while she was out of status. Given the fact that she looks hispanic, I can only imagine the legal quagmire we'd be in if some OK trooper pulled us over, especially that we'd be from outside of the state.

[russ 1]

Given that, I don't see how a traffic cop could ask anyone for proof of citizenship. Or at least we are not required to answer. I'm still baffled why so many here who have gone through the legal tangles of immigration would want to make things any more difficult for themselves and their foreign spouses.

The is a traffic roadblock on I-87 100 miles from the border in upstate New York. I worked there for a while, and was stopped every day, asked to show them my passport, and open my trunk. So yes, it does happen - just depends on where you are. I suppose I could have refused, but I also suppose I would end up in INS detention while they sorted it out.

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

Amen that and Hallelujah to our Constitution. I'm amazed by that video...I've watched a lot of those reality cop shows and thought I was completely at the mercy of an officer should I get pulled over.

That is exactly what they want people to think. You should never be questioned by police without your own lawyer present. Lawyers are a lot cheaper than most people think, especially if you already have one. The whole point of the police asking you questions is to gather evidence against you. There are a few times you aren't entitled to a lawyer - if you suspected of DUI, they don't need to allow you to contact one until you take whatever chemical test they want.

Doing what the police want (answering their questions) is usually not in your interest. Why do people do it? They probably don't know any better. And they are probably guilty of something, but that really isn't the point. The advice in that video above is pretty good.

I've been pulled over by the police many times for absolutely no reason (your car is dirty, your headlights aren't bright enough, etc). It is as fishing expedition. Just because you don't think you are doing anything wrong does not mean you should let the police do whatever they want. I've asked many times if they could search my trunk - my answer is always no, even though there is nothing there anyway.

Two key points - NEVER admit to any crime (going 2 miles over the speed limit) and ASK if you are free to go. When the police pull you over, there is a reason they park behind you. You are not being detained. In theory, you are free to leave. You can't just drive away, but they do need to either arrest you, or let you go when you ask.

Another good fact to know - depending on your state, if the police ask you to perform a field sobriety test, you can say no (and you probably should). You need to do the breath or blood test, but this one may be optional. The breatalyzer is actually not so accurate, so you can show up as drunk when you aren't. The video from these field tests doesn't prove much, but if it looks bad it will be shown to a jury. Walking on gravel at night isn't an easy thing to do for most sober people.

I'm not a lawyer, please, don't believe any of this.

i don't, no worries there.

police park behind you for their safety as well as yours. you are being detained for questioning. no you don't have to answer any questions, you can demand an attorney and not answer any questions. refusal of a test could in some states gain you an automatic suspension of your license. they don't have to search your vehicle either - if you refuse they can always keep you there until a drug sniffing dog shows up (if one is available).

me, i'd not let them search it just for general principle - and then let them bring their dog. the dog won't find anything and i've got lots of time to waste usually anyways.

Edited November 6, 2007 by charlesandnessa