6 WKS FROM CSC TO NVC?

[russ 1]

As I doubt there are 50 million people in the streets. I am talking about the working folks who work several part time jobs or even a full time one where medical benefits are not offered. Hard to imagine right? So what are those people to do? They can either choose to buy health care, food, or pay for rent each month.

Even though I am for smaller government, socialized medicine is necessary. The government has created a system (through laws, licensing, and regulation) that allows only large insurers and the government to get fair prices. Everyone else is charged a 1,000% markup.

The current system is horribly inefficient. Too much money is wasted on billing, advertising and administrative costs. The government already spends enough to insure everyone in the US, yet only about 25% of the population actually recieves any benefit from this.

Look at the numbers

Per capita expenditure

Canada 2,519

Germany 3,204

UK 2,428

USA 5,711

We already spend twice as much as the rest of the world per capita. The governement already pays for 44% of all health expenditures to cover just 25% of the country. I think that all of the medicare/medicaid money should be used to provide BASIC and Emergency care for everyone, and let private insurers cover everything else.

My private insurance in Europe, by the way, covered far more than my US policy does, and cost much less. (about one tenth the price)

[visceral image 0]

In Florida, they used to have a state run insurance plan for those of us that could not get insurance; because of previous medical conditions and such. It was supposed to be guaranteed insurance; they turned me and my ex-wife down. Me because of depression and hypothyroidism and her because of arthritis; so much for guaranteed insurance; and we were willing to pay the premiums but could not get insurance. I have been self-insured for over 20 years now, but not by my choice.

PS My depression is under stable treatment for 9 years and hypothyroidism under stable treatment for over 30 years; her arthritis was untreatable and she did not take medication or seek doctor care. Stable treatment is defined as seeing the doctor once a year and getting a prescription for a year of medication.

[russ 1]

In Florida, they used to have a state run insurance plan for those of us that could not get insurance; because of previous medical conditions and such. It was supposed to be guaranteed insurance; they turned me and my ex-wife down.

Short answer - a group plan is the only thing that will work if you have any medical history of any kind. Individual plans will only insure exceptionally healthy people.

To get around this, create a group plan. This isn't that hard to do.

But really, it shouldn't be like this.

[slim 1,525]

I have not gone to the dentist in two years, since I lost the privilege of being on my parents plan.

Do you really need to go to the dentist?

Right now I am working two jobs, 42 hours a week and no insurance, no vacation pay, and only because the city of San Francisco mandated employers to have sick days do I have that as of 2007. My two jobs are 1. law office clerk and 2. circulation assistant at the university library.

Neither allow me to work full time to get benefits.

You could consolidate all those hours you work into one job with benefits. (And you'd probably make more money!)

Dropping a couple hundred dollars a month for insurance or $100 and having a $8000 deductible does not seem reasonable to me. I am already carrying $130k debt for school

So $130K for school is reasonable but paying a couple hundred bucks a month for insurance is not?

Stable treatment is defined as seeing the doctor once a year and getting a prescription for a year of medication.

This is a classic example of the reason our healthcare system is in the situation it's in.

We've developed a dependency on medical care whether we need it or not. I'm not saying yours isn't needed, what I'm saying is we've all been placed into a system that distinguishes between someone with a chronic condition and someone who is a healthy 25-year-old student that needs nothing more than check-ups and emergency coverage.

Obviously the person that needs a year's worth of medication is going to cost an insurance provider more than someone who needs a check-up every two years. That's why there should be a realistic system in place where the govt. regulates the percentage an individual has to pay to a private company based on that individual's needs. Need a year's worth of meds? OK, you pay the first $2,000 (or an equivalent percentage of your below-poverty salary) then the govt. steps in and pays the rest.

Since the govt. would never go for system like this, where they pay the bills a private company charges them without being regulated (well, except in the rebuilding of a country or running a war) it would have to be a govt. system entirely or a semi-govt. system with private companies being heavily regulated on where they could send individuals for treatment. But, the govt. is in no way near being able to do something like that, so it's going to stay pretty much like it is for quite a while.

Individual plans will only insure exceptionally healthy people.

If there was only the "govt. healthcare plan" then everyone would have equal coverage and would pay an equal amount.

It's just impossible to do.

[russ 1]

This is a classic example of the reason our healthcare system is in the situation it's in.

We've developed a dependency on medical care whether we need it or not. I'm not saying yours isn't needed, what I'm saying is we've all been placed into a system that distinguishes between someone with a chronic condition and someone who is a healthy 25-year-old student that needs nothing more than check-ups and emergency coverage.

The idea behind all insurance is to spread the risk among many individuals. The risk models for health insurance do not work the same way as automobile or property insurance. There are progressively more costs as people age, which is not random.

Any insurance scheme needs the healthy 25 year olds paying in to support the unhealthy 75 year olds that consume most medical services.

Even if costs in the US were brought in line with the rest of the industrialized world, 50% of the population would not be able to afford care on their own.

[slim 1,525]

The idea behind all insurance is to spread the risk among many individuals. The risk models for health insurance do not work the same way as automobile or property insurance. There are progressively more costs as people age, which is not random.

Any insurance scheme needs the healthy 25 year olds paying in to support the unhealthy 75 year olds that consume most medical services.

Even if costs in the US were brought in line with the rest of the industrialized world, 50% of the population would not be able to afford care on their own.

Exactly why there needs to be a govt. system in place.

No money for it you say? Well, I know where we can liquidate about $81BILLION right now.....

[russ 1]

Exactly why there needs to be a govt. system in place.

No money for it you say? Well, I know where we can liquidate about $81BILLION right now.....

Politically, it is a nearly impossible thing to do. Those who benefit the most under the current system (those over 65) vote, and will not like any changes that take away from them. Right now, most goverment spending is directed at retired people.

Giving the same coverage to everyone would require raising taxes, and retired people generally won't like that either.

[mox 298]

No money for it you say? Well, I know where we can liquidate about $81BILLION right now.....

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this discussion. But I just need to say....WORD!

It drives me up a freaking wall that the most wealthy country on the planet can justify a war that's costing multiples of what a modest NHS plan would cost (all the while giving lovely little tax cuts to the wealthy and asking future generations to fund this disaster) but we can't take care of our own citizens. That somehow you are only entitled to a healthy life if you happen to bring in $x per month is ludicrous. The U.S. is (if it's not already) fast becoming the most unhealthy country on the planet and a large part of that is because so many Americans lack access to preventative care. (The fact that it's cheaper in some areas to buy McDonalds instead of groceries doesn't help.) I used to work for a large pharma, and saw study after study that showed that diseases such as COPD and diabetes typically cost less than a couple dollars per day to treat in a managed environment, but ran into the thousands if left untreated until the patient had to go to the emergency room. And as someone else hinted at earlier, those ER costs are typically left unpaid by the patient, making private healthcare even more expensive. The system as it stands now is ridiculously broken.

[slim 1,525]

The system as it stands now is ridiculously broken.

That's exactly right!

[Satellite 1]

Do you really need to go to the dentist?

I think so. Used to have preventive cleanings twice a year and the dentist would fill cavities before they became a huge dental nightmare.

You could consolidate all those hours you work into one job with benefits. (And you'd probably make more money!)

That was exactly my point. I cannot consolidate. Because neither employer wants to pay benefits! They said so when I asked. That is why I and so many other working Americans have to take multiple jobs to get a good income flow but no associated benefits / overtime.

So $130K for school is reasonable but paying a couple hundred bucks a month for insurance is not?

Both are unreasonable. But I don't want to manufacture plastic bags either, no offense. This 130k debt will hopefully open the door to more money in the future. The health insurance costs / outrageous debt you can acquire if you need services when you are sick will bring no such future benefit. If you want to open another discussion we can talk about how Federal Stafford Loans vary from 6.8% to 8.5%! Your car loan and mortgage loans have smaller percentages! What is wrong with this administration. The average student finishes now with something like 20k debt and that is only for undergraduate!

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/n...ntdebt0415.html

[russ 1]

So $130K for school is reasonable but paying a couple hundred bucks a month for insurance is not?

Both are unreasonable. But I don't want to manufacture plastic bags either, no offense. This 130k debt will hopefully open the door to more money in the future. The health insurance costs / outrageous debt you can acquire if you need services when you are sick will bring no such future benefit. If you want to open another discussion we can talk about how Federal Stafford Loans vary from 6.8% to 8.5%! Your car loan and mortgage loans have smaller percentages! What is wrong with this administration. The average student finishes now with something like 20k debt and that is only for undergraduate!

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/n...ntdebt0415.html

Both are unreasonable. For the first few years I was in school, the Air Force was picking up the tab and paying me. About $40,000 a year for tuition, room and board and books, plus what they paid me. After my discharge, I was on the hook paying this myself. I worked with no benefits 40 hours a week to do that, and it wasn't easy. Fortunately it wasn't for very long.

I was an Electrical Engineering / Computer Science major. This was a good career 10 years ago, but these days, much of this work is being moved to India and China. An engineering education is becoming so expensive in the US that is is difficult to graduate enough engineers. At the same time, those that do graduate here have so much debt that it is difficult to pay them enough. As a result, I do mostly consulting and sales work now - very little actual engineering. That being said, what I do pays quite well for my age, and has great benefits.

You really don't have much choice, though. My wife's masters degree is at a state school, which has the lowest in-state tuition in the US. We wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise. A US master's degree makes you far more employable here. It will cost less than $7,000 for the MA degree, which is a good deal (from a pretty good school by Florida standards).

As for the debt for law school - the better firms pay starting salaries of about $135-150K a year to associates now. It is a fair trade to take on that debt for future earnings. On the other hand, those jobs go primarily to Harvard/Yale/Duke/etc grads in the top 25% of thier class. This also tends to be Corprorate/Tax/Patent/IP work.

Many lawyers end up doing contract work that these firms farm out for $25-$40 an hour (or less).

Given how much university degrees increase earnings, they are worth the money. I have a bigger problem with the poor job done by US high schools, which do not prepare students adequetely for University level work. Comparing the rigor of mathematics my fellow engineering students did to future mathematics teachers in education was a joke.

Unfortunately. having your kids adequetely prepared for college requires a huge investment to live in an affluent area with good schools. This is the real crime.

[Danno 1,228]

What is the average cost of a 4 yr university these days?

How could the guy working 35 hours a week afford that?

Why not have the Govt pay for this too?

I am sure if getting my teeth cleaned is a responsibility of the Federal Govt. My complete education

must be as well.

How in the world do young couple just starting out, buy a first home in NYC or many other parts of the country?

Certainly Housing is a "basic human right". Why is not the Govt helping these people get safe affordable housing?

How do we allow the rich to have three car garages when some of us don't even have a house?

It's amazing people even survived the first couple of hundred years in this country without the Govt doing it's "Fair-share" for them.

[Danno 1,228]

Are there any known ways to track how long it is taking to get from NOA2 to NVC

getting the info?

I wonder if the delay Buck and I are having are now typical?

[russ 1]

How in the world do young couple just starting out, buy a first home in NYC or many other parts of the country?

Certainly Housing is a "basic human right". Why is not the Govt helping these people get safe affordable housing?

How do we allow the rich to have three car garages when some of us don't even have a house?

It's amazing people even survived the first couple of hundred years in this country without the Govt doing it's "Fair-share" for them.

The government has created the rules, we must live within them. I can't just hang up a shingle and call myself a doctor, or lawyer, or engineer like I could 200 years ago. I am required to be licensed, insured and educated to the standards set by the state and federal governments. This is true of most professions now. The government did not tax your income heavily 200 years ago either. Medical insurance wasn't a necessity 50 years ago either, since a few days in the hospital did not cost several years salary for the average American paying out of their pocket.

The states also dictate how insurance companies may sell their products, which dictates the cost. I paid much less outside the US for private insurance with better coverage. If the market was truly competitve here (it isn't) costs would decrease and care would improve.

Expensive housing is a problem fundamentally caused by the government - giving away money in tax breaks, setting interest rates too low, and buying mortgages (fannie and freddy) and assuming the risk. The real estate bubble was caused by the government, the speculation was just a symptom of the rules they put in place.

High health care expenses are also caused by the government, as they are the ones setting the rules an paying most of the money. Government spending and tax breaks are heavily tilted towards two groups - retirees and families making between $80,000 and $150,000. These tend to be those who vote the most.

It is much harder for 20 somethings starting out now. Buying a house in your twenties for a married couple is near impossilbe in much of the country. Staring out several years salary in debt makes it very difficult. My parents could afford to buy a house (at 25 years old) where I grew up in Boston with blue collar jobs.

True - we do choose to spend our money differently than my parents. Far more on education (they spent nothing, no school for Mom and the Navy paid for Dad). The biggest expenses (housing, insurance and education) have grown far faster than inflation, and this hits younger people harder. We are also on the hook for retirement savings (parents had pensions, we have to save in IRAs and 401ks).

We also work much longer hours than our parents did. I don't remember mom or dad ever working over 40 hours a week. I have never had a salaried job were I was expected to work less than 60 hours (except for my current one, which I have no plans to leave).

All that being said, if you are smart and willing to work hard, the US is still one of the best places in the world to get ahead in life.

[Satellite 1]

What is the average cost of a 4 yr university these days?

$12,796 a year for public and $30,367 a year for private for the whole package.

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-new.cf...me=fs-109-2-151

How could the guy working 35 hours a week afford that?

Most cannot.

http://efinancedirectory.com/articles/San_...y_Analysis.html

Why not have the Govt pay for this too?

It does. My wife is getting a completely free education and about $3,000 for room and board thanks to the Federal and State government. Reason, we are poor according to FAFSA and the university's guidelines.

http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/

I am sure if getting my teeth cleaned is a responsibility of the Federal Govt. My complete education must be as well.

See Russ's post on how the federal government combined with some of our proud employers have made it so one person can have his teeth cleaned for 0-$20 and others have to pay hundreds of dollars. As for the education, they are already paying for my wife's but I was not eligible for it because my parents made too much when I was an undergraduate and as a graduate student I can only receive private funding in terms of scholarships.

How in the world do young couple just starting out, buy a first home in NYC or many other parts of the country?

Most are renters and do not. However, the city of San Francisco does have a lottery system where qualified people can buy a home priced below market price but would be affordable if you made somewhere between $58,00 to $98,000 a year. Remember the classic pie chart of Americans spending no more than 33% of their gross income on housing. I find it quite unfair that some follow the pie charts but a growing number of others are spending like me somewhere around 75%.

http://cbs5.com/bayarearealestate/local_story_299215710.html

Certainly Housing is a "basic human right". Why is not the Govt helping these people get safe affordable housing?

It does, see above. And if you are very poor there is section 8 housing which brings rent into that classical pie chart I described above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_%28housing%29

How do we allow the rich to have three car garages when some of us don't even have a house?

It's called a market economy and democratic society. But it only works so long as people believe that by working hard and following the law they too can achieve that. As soon as you have an overwhelming majority of havenots, a revolution occurs. You can use many African nations as an example of this.

It's amazing people even survived the first couple of hundred years in this country without the Govt doing it's "Fair-share" for them.

Again, see Russ's post, he explains it very well.

Are there any known ways to track how long it is taking to get from NOA2 to NVC getting the info? I wonder if the delay Buck and I are having are now typical?

I don't think there are. But I can assure you that getting a foreign fiancée to live in the US is just as much a government involved issue as is housing, education, and health care. Edited November 4, 2007 by Satellite