JImmy Carter says US tortures

[DeadPoolX 9]

Jimmy Carter's Legacy of Failure

Trust me, 25+ years from now, Bush's legacy of failure will take a lot more room to summarize.

I won't say you're necessarily wrong, but I can't say you're necessarily right either.

Maybe in 25 years, the Bush Administration will be looked on poorly. But in 100 years or more? For all we know, George W. Bush may be seen as one of the greatest presidents in U.S. history. I know that seems unlikely, but think about past history. Look at Abraham Lincoln.

You're probably wondering what Lincoln has to do with this or how I could even compare Bush to him, right? Well, here's my point: When Lincoln was in office, he was despised by everyone. The entire country hated his guts. The man was considered the worst president in U.S. history and so thoroughly disliked, the citizens of this country really wanted nothing to do with him.

Not only that, but Lincoln broke many of this country's laws for his own use. For instance, he suspended habeas corpus. He also had many people arrested, convicted and thrown in prison without trial -- especially those who spoke out against him or appeared to be "trouble makers." So this man was anything but the "shining beacon of democracy" that we learned about in high school history class.

Now fast forward to modern times. We look at Lincoln and the current spin on him -- his character and his presidency -- is that he was a "great man and possibly the greatest president the United States has ever had." Interesting how time tends to "heal all wounds," isn't it?

So all I'm saying is... it's entirely possible that, given the passage of enough time (a century or more), George W. Bush might be looked upon as a fantastic president by those who are far enough removed from our time and his presidency. Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant; I doubt those living back in the 1860s would've ever imagined that Lincoln would be seen today as he is either.

Edited October 11, 2007 by DeadPoolX

[GaryC 7]

Geez, I cant think of anything more helpful than having the worst president in recent history, dancing around the globe bad-mouthing his own country.

The worst President in recent history currently occupies the big white building at 1600 Penn Ave.

If you really want to get down to it Carter is the root for the Islamic revolution and therefore the reason why Bush has done what he has done. What he did in Iran started this whole mess. You have the right to think Bush is a bad president but you have to admit that without Carter's stupidity in Iran we probably wouldn't have the problems we do today.

#######? What version of history are you reading???

The real history, not the revisionist BS you apparently read.

[pedroh 21]

Geez, I cant think of anything more helpful than having the worst president in recent history, dancing around the globe bad-mouthing his own country.

The worst President in recent history currently occupies the big white building at 1600 Penn Ave.

If you really want to get down to it Carter is the root for the Islamic revolution and therefore the reason why Bush has done what he has done. What he did in Iran started this whole mess. You have the right to think Bush is a bad president but you have to admit that without Carter's stupidity in Iran we probably wouldn't have the problems we do today.

#######? What version of history are you reading???

The real history, not the revisionist BS you apparently read.

there's no such thing as real history

[Peikko 1,575]

Erm, wasn't Lincoln the one who wanted slavery abolished? That might be the reason why he was rather widely hated.

Are you suggesting the Bush will be responsible for the end of terrorism or some other grand design? That would really be the only way that his 'sins' would be forgiven in 100 years time, in my opinion.

I don't think he will be seen as either the best, or worst, but rather as one that no one can remember.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Geez, I cant think of anything more helpful than having the worst president in recent history, dancing around the globe bad-mouthing his own country.

The worst President in recent history currently occupies the big white building at 1600 Penn Ave.

If you really want to get down to it Carter is the root for the Islamic revolution and therefore the reason why Bush has done what he has done. What he did in Iran started this whole mess. You have the right to think Bush is a bad president but you have to admit that without Carter's stupidity in Iran we probably wouldn't have the problems we do today.

#######? What version of history are you reading???

The real history, not the revisionist BS you apparently read.

But again - discussing this subject in the absence of the 1953 coup would seem to be rather incomplete view of that history, and indeed - revisionist.

[GaryC 7]

Geez, I cant think of anything more helpful than having the worst president in recent history, dancing around the globe bad-mouthing his own country.

The worst President in recent history currently occupies the big white building at 1600 Penn Ave.

If you really want to get down to it Carter is the root for the Islamic revolution and therefore the reason why Bush has done what he has done. What he did in Iran started this whole mess. You have the right to think Bush is a bad president but you have to admit that without Carter's stupidity in Iran we probably wouldn't have the problems we do today.

#######? What version of history are you reading???

The real history, not the revisionist BS you apparently read.

there's no such thing as real history

The true events. I.E. what really happened. Who know what would have happened if we hadn't installed the Shah in 53 but is is a sure thing that his overthrow in 79 gave a whole country to Islamic fundamentalists. Carters legacy is one of abject failure and set the stage for the problems we are having today.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Erm, wasn't Lincoln the one who wanted slavery abolished? That might be the reason why he was rather widely hated.

Are you suggesting the Bush will be responsible for the end of terrorism or some other grand design? That would really be the only way that his 'sins' would be forgiven in 100 years time, in my opinion.

I don't think he will be seen as either the best, or worst, but rather as one that no one can remember.

Agreed - the big difference would seem to be a lasting achievement that amounts to a real historical legacy. I'm not sure anything of the kind has taken place during the last 8 years...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Geez, I cant think of anything more helpful than having the worst president in recent history, dancing around the globe bad-mouthing his own country.

The worst President in recent history currently occupies the big white building at 1600 Penn Ave.

If you really want to get down to it Carter is the root for the Islamic revolution and therefore the reason why Bush has done what he has done. What he did in Iran started this whole mess. You have the right to think Bush is a bad president but you have to admit that without Carter's stupidity in Iran we probably wouldn't have the problems we do today.

#######? What version of history are you reading???

The real history, not the revisionist BS you apparently read.

there's no such thing as real history

The true events. I.E. what really happened. Who know what would have happened if we hadn't installed the Shah in 53 but is is a sure thing that his overthrow in 79 gave a whole country to Islamic fundamentalists. Carters legacy is one of abject failure and set the stage for the problems we are having today.

Who knows what would have happened if we hadn't intervened in '53. There wouldn't have been a revolution - or at the least it could have been delayed several decades. Again - you can't lay the blame at this mans feet for failing to take action that given the historical context at the time (i.e. the fallout from the disastrous war in Vietnam) that he could really have done all that much to stop it from happening. How exactly do you stop a revolution?

Edited October 11, 2007 by Number 6

[DeadPoolX 9]

Erm, wasn't Lincoln the one who wanted slavery abolished? That might be the reason why he was rather widely hated.

Are you suggesting the Bush will be responsible for the end of terrorism or some other grand design? That would really be the only way that his 'sins' would be forgiven in 100 years time, in my opinion.

I don't think he will be seen as either the best, or worst, but rather as one that no one can remember.

That's a common misconception. Lincoln originally didn't want slavery done away with; he didn't even care about, as most Northerners didn't either. He was fine with allowing slavery to exist in the Southern states where it was already an institution; however, he wanted to stop it there and keep it from spreading to new states.

That's where the problem came into play. The states that used slavery felt this was harming their rights as busisness owners (since Southern economics depended heavily on agriculture and slavery) and their ability to expand into new territory. They also felt Lincoln's idea was a "slippery slope" of sorts, since if the law constrained slavery, it might eventually abolish it.

Just for the record, it's also a common misconception that the South purposefully counted slaves as only 3/5 a person because they didn't consider slaves to be "human" or whatever. The South wanted to count all slaves as full people. This wasn't because they wanted to give the slaves rights, but because it'd give them more power. The North, knowing this, wanted to make slaves count as nothing, therefore a compromise was reached. This meant that slaves would be counted as "3/5 of a person" so the South would still some of what they wanted, while North wouldn't get completely overwhelmed.

[GaryC 7]

Erm, wasn't Lincoln the one who wanted slavery abolished? That might be the reason why he was rather widely hated.

Are you suggesting the Bush will be responsible for the end of terrorism or some other grand design? That would really be the only way that his 'sins' would be forgiven in 100 years time, in my opinion.

I don't think he will be seen as either the best, or worst, but rather as one that no one can remember.

Agreed - the big difference would seem to be a lasting achievement that amounts to a real historical legacy. I'm not sure anything of the kind has taken place during the last 8 years...

Lincoln also suspended Habius Corpus, outlawed dissent in congress, allowed warrant less searches and even banished a Senator to the south that openly criticized the way he ran the war. He also violated the constitution which states that any state may withdraw from the Union if it wanted to. So in effect the Civil War was an illegal war. Funny how history works isn't it?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Geez, I cant think of anything more helpful than having the worst president in recent history, dancing around the globe bad-mouthing his own country.

The worst President in recent history currently occupies the big white building at 1600 Penn Ave.

If you really want to get down to it Carter is the root for the Islamic revolution and therefore the reason why Bush has done what he has done. What he did in Iran started this whole mess. You have the right to think Bush is a bad president but you have to admit that without Carter's stupidity in Iran we probably wouldn't have the problems we do today.

#######? What version of history are you reading???

The real history, not the revisionist BS you apparently read.

Please give me the name(s) of which historians that you're paraphrasing from.

[Peikko 1,575]

Aren't you rather playing with the terms now? The fact is, he didn't approve of it or he would have been fine about it spreading into Northern States as well. Regardless, his legacy is that he was responsible for the end of slavery, or are you going to argue that is was infact nothing to do with Lincoln at all?

It's not very likely that Bush will be remembered for anything. The chances are that even the Iraq debacle will have faded into historical nothingness in 100 years time. So, what are you suggesting the Bush legacy will be anyway?

[GaryC 7]

Aren't you rather playing with the terms now? The fact is, he didn't approve of it or he would have been fine about it spreading into Northern States as well. Regardless, his legacy is that he was responsible for the end of slavery, or are you going to argue that is was infact nothing to do with Lincoln at all?

It's not very likely that Bush will be remembered for anything. The chances are that even the Iraq debacle will have faded into historical nothingness in 100 years time. So, what are you suggesting the Bush legacy will be anyway?

I am saying that the very things Bush will be remembered as the worst president by some here are the very things Lincoln, who is regarded as one of the best, also did. The only way we will know what Bush's legacy will be is to wait 100 years. If the war on terror turns out to be the struggle that saves the USA then Bush will be remembered in the same light as Lincoln, if it turns out to be the start of a world war with us losing then he will be remembered as a despot.

[JohnK 0]

"head-slapping, simulated drowning, and frigid temperatures."

If that is considered torture than I was tortured extensively as a child when:

1) I smarted off to my parents and got slapped upside the head.

2) My brother dunked me in the swimming pool.

3) I stood at the bus stop waiting for the school bus in the middle of winter.

throwing someone in a pool is not waterboarding.. and.. were u naked in the middle of winter?

Now you're making stuff up. There was nothing in the original article about waterboarding or being naked.

[GaryC 7]

Geez, I cant think of anything more helpful than having the worst president in recent history, dancing around the globe bad-mouthing his own country.

The worst President in recent history currently occupies the big white building at 1600 Penn Ave.

If you really want to get down to it Carter is the root for the Islamic revolution and therefore the reason why Bush has done what he has done. What he did in Iran started this whole mess. You have the right to think Bush is a bad president but you have to admit that without Carter's stupidity in Iran we probably wouldn't have the problems we do today.

#######? What version of history are you reading???

The real history, not the revisionist BS you apparently read.

Please give me the name(s) of which historians that you're paraphrasing from.

Do some reading Steven. Facts are the facts. Carter could have stopped the Shah from being deposed and the Islamic Revolution would not have happened.