Conservatives target 12-year-old boy and his family in S-CHIP debate

[Fandango 1,439]

What's the poverty level for a family of 4?

You're not seriously suggesting that a family that lives in a $400K+ home is living in poverty, are you?

If that met the definition of poverty, then I'd be fcuking broke.

They might have a $400k asset which is not liquid until they try to sell it. Which, considering the downturn in the housing market, is easier said than done.

For a family of 6, living in a city, and making only $45,000 per year. You are definetly not living the American Dream.

They could have either taken a small HELOC or a small mtg.

Here are the facts that the right-wing distorted in order to attack young Graeme:

1) Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year.

2) His sister Gemma attends another private school to help her with the brain injuries that occurred due to her accident. The school costs $23,000 a year, but the state pays the entire cost.

3) They bought their “lavish house†sixteen years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less than safe.

4) Last year, the Frosts made $45,000 combined. Over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined.

5) The state of Maryland has found them eligible to participate in the CHIP program.

Desperate to defend Bush’s decision to cut off millions of children from health care, the right wing has stooped to launching baseless and uninformed attacks against a 12 year old child and his family.

Right wing bloggers have been harassing the Frosts, calling their home numerous times to get information about their private lives. Compassionate conservatism indeed.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/08/attacking-graeme-frost/

I see they are not disputing the home's current market value.

Geez, it's not like their house is worth all this money, while other home prices have remained stagnant. I'd be interested in knowing what is the lowest value of home a family of that income level can own for you to be satisfied??? Can you find ANY homes in that area for substantially less?

Look, somehow daddy decided to become self-employed. You and I are effectively subsidizing that desire. I fail to see how that is justified. If you cannot afford to go into business on your own, then you better stay employed. If you decide to stand on your own feet, then fcuking stand on them. Don't ask me to be your crutch. And if you do, then volunteer to be put up as the case for the expansion of an entitlement program that - in this scenario - would seem to be too far reaching already. How hard is it to understand that?

Self employed people have tons of ways to make legitimate deductions on what we earn. You'd be AMAZED at the stuff that one could deduct.....from meals, to vacations! so that $45k figure may not be so accurate.

I could fly to Hawaii, stay in 5 star service, blow a ton of money, and before I come home, hold a seminar on real estate...and apparantly the whole thing is tax deductible! According to this program I'm in btw....this is not personal advice here, and I've never tested it out. 'Tax Strategies for the Self Employed' btw

Or even, the father could put himself merely as an employee of his company making sh!t money while the corporation flourishes.

Edited October 10, 2007 by LisaD

[Fandango 1,439]

But I have to say...I'm going to start checking out what's due to me as well. Becoming self employed is a hard choice...and you're out there swingin in the wind all by yourself. Sure, with great risk comes great reward...but with my previous medical history, most private ins companies won't insure me for a reasonable....or even moderately unreasonable figure. So I'm payin thru the nose for health insurance because it's non negoitiable afaic. It's the cost of doing biz.

If this family 'met' the reqs, that's great for them really....but they should have the better sense to realize that THEY were not the intended recipient for this fund. And THEY should have had the good sense to stay in the backgroud quietly instead of prancing their kid around as the spokesperson for something that they were abusing (imo of course).

Furthermore...WHY did the Dems pick this particular kid in the first place?

[joelunchbox 0]

But I have to say...I'm going to start checking out what's due to me as well. Becoming self employed is a hard choice...and you're out there swingin in the wind all by yourself. Sure, with great risk comes great reward...but with my previous medical history, most private ins companies won't insure me for a reasonable....or even moderately unreasonable figure. So I'm payin thru the nose for health insurance because it's non negoitiable afaic. It's the cost of doing biz.

If this family 'met' the reqs, that's great for them really....but they should have the better sense to realize that THEY were not the intended recipient for this fund. And THEY should have had the good sense to stay in the backgroud quietly instead of prancing their kid around as the spokesperson for something that they were abusing (imo of course).

Furthermore...WHY did the Dems pick this particular kid in the first place?

Look at the picture of their house. $400,000???? You are kidding!!!!!

don't get your hate of hillary involved in this. I do wish they would say if the salary was net/gross/single/total but the point is that here is a middle class family that would be without healthcare if not for SCHP. If you have good adequate health coverage, Great for you!! Now go out there and look and live in the real world. And what are you doing to help people without healthcare, Anything???

The only thing wrong here is that the same group of assassins that smeared McCain is still in business. And If McCain has any balls he better stand up to this right now. Surely he knows what these people are going through.

[Fandango 1,439]

Look at the picture of their house. $400,000???? You are kidding!!!!!

don't get your hate of hillary involved in this. I do wish they would say if the salary was net/gross/single/total but the point is that here is a middle class family that would be without healthcare if not for SCHP. If you have good adequate health coverage, Great for you!! Now go out there and look and live in the real world. And what are you doing to help people without healthcare, Anything???

The only thing wrong here is that the same group of assassins that smeared McCain is still in business. And If McCain has any balls he better stand up to this right now. Surely he knows what these people are going through.

No one...not even the parents...are disputing the value of the house.

What am I doing to help people without healthcare? I pay my taxes, that's what. And I don't mind doing so for the poor/indigent, but I do NOT find it acceptable to fund healthcare so that pop can get his own biz off the ground in a building that he owns.

Yes, I have good adequate health coverage....but I PAY THRU THE NOSE even though I don't want to. It's called personal responsibility, and more peeps should try it.

Edited October 10, 2007 by LisaD

[GaryC 7]

Look at the picture of their house. $400,000???? You are kidding!!!!!

don't get your hate of hillary involved in this. I do wish they would say if the salary was net/gross/single/total but the point is that here is a middle class family that would be without healthcare if not for SCHP. If you have good adequate health coverage, Great for you!! Now go out there and look and live in the real world. And what are you doing to help people without healthcare, Anything???

The only thing wrong here is that the same group of assassins that smeared McCain is still in business. And If McCain has any balls he better stand up to this right now. Surely he knows what these people are going through.

No one...not even the parents...are disputing the value of the house.

What am I doing to help people without healthcare? I pay my taxes, that's what. And I don't mind doing so for the poor/indigent, but I do NOT find it acceptable to fund healthcare so that pop can get his own biz off the ground in a building that he owns.

Yes, I have good adequate health coverage....but I PAY THRU THE NOSE even though I don't want to. It's called personal responsibility, and more peeps should try it.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

At some point, "personal responsibility" vis-a-vis having health insurance becomes irrelevant. People, including kids, with conditions that require ongoing treatment are simply going to be denied coverage. You could even say that the ability to take responsibility for one's own care is something of a privilege. Most people on both sides of this debate agree that insurance should be portable and that a person shouldn't be tied to a job or forced to abandon self-employment for the sake of joining a group plan with no preexisting condition limitations. But come on--it's a gross oversimplification to say that people who are insured are responsible and those who don't are not. Just think about someone who has had cancer within the last few years and is considered uninsurable. Many states don't have a high-risk pool for these people, and they face price gouging. Like a person who's been though cancer treatment needs that $#it.

I find it curious that in a country that encourages entrepreneurship. so many people can't make it a reality because of the health insurance burden. And I'm not just talking about the outrageously priced premiums, but getting insured at all. If you don't qualify for a group plan as a self-employed person (which many people don't), insurance companies can deny you coverage because you had an infected hangnail in 1998. And yikes if you're a female of childbearing age and want a plan that will cover you if you become pregnant.

Some might say, "Well, just get a job with benefits [i.e., a group plan] and quit your whining." Is that what we want, people who are forced to abandon self-employment or a small business (perhaps laying people off in the process) and take an undesired job because of health care? A service that is considered a right in nearly all other industrialized countries? Land of opportunity, my a$$.

How is a scheme like this good for society?

[joelunchbox 0]

At some point, "personal responsibility" vis-a-vis having health insurance becomes irrelevant. People, including kids, with conditions that require ongoing treatment are simply going to be denied coverage. You could even say that the ability to take responsibility for one's own care is something of a privilege. Most people on both sides of this debate agree that insurance should be portable and that a person shouldn't be tied to a job or forced to abandon self-employment for the sake of joining a group plan with no preexisting condition limitations. But come on--it's a gross oversimplification to say that people who are insured are responsible and those who don't are not. Just think about someone who has had cancer within the last few years and is considered uninsurable. Many states don't have a high-risk pool for these people, and they face price gouging. Like a person who's been though cancer treatment needs that $#it.

I find it curious that in a country that encourages entrepreneurship. so many people can't make it a reality because of the health insurance burden. And I'm not just talking about the outrageously priced premiums, but getting insured at all. If you don't qualify for a group plan as a self-employed person (which many people don't), insurance companies can deny you coverage because you had an infected hangnail in 1998. And yikes if you're a female of childbearing age and want a plan that will cover you if you become pregnant.

Some might say, "Well, just get a job with benefits [i.e., a group plan] and quit your whining." Is that what we want, people who are forced to abandon self-employment or a small business (perhaps laying people off in the process) and take an undesired job because of health care? A service that is considered a right in nearly all other industrialized countries? Land of opportunity, my a$$.

How is a scheme like this good for society?

Amen

And I again say, $400,000 house?? It says bought for 55,000 it says in (I read that as being in a district that has some) an area with homes worth such and such. The fact that you are able to pay says something. My ex is in the exact predicament these folks are. Do I eat? or do I buy healthcare? Wow, what a choice! Okay guys! Let's get it going..USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!

Edited October 10, 2007 by joelunchbox

[Fandango 1,439]

At some point, "personal responsibility" vis-a-vis having health insurance becomes irrelevant. People, including kids, with conditions that require ongoing treatment are simply going to be denied coverage. You could even say that the ability to take responsibility for one's own care is something of a privilege. Most people on both sides of this debate agree that insurance should be portable and that a person shouldn't be tied to a job or forced to abandon self-employment for the sake of joining a group plan with no preexisting condition limitations. But come on--it's a gross oversimplification to say that people who are insured are responsible and those who don't are not. Just think about someone who has had cancer within the last few years and is considered uninsurable. Many states don't have a high-risk pool for these people, and they face price gouging. Like a person who's been though cancer treatment needs that $#it.

I find it curious that in a country that encourages entrepreneurship. so many people can't make it a reality because of the health insurance burden. And I'm not just talking about the outrageously priced premiums, but getting insured at all. If you don't qualify for a group plan as a self-employed person (which many people don't), insurance companies can deny you coverage because you had an infected hangnail in 1998. And yikes if you're a female of childbearing age and want a plan that will cover you if you become pregnant.

Some might say, "Well, just get a job with benefits [i.e., a group plan] and quit your whining." Is that what we want, people who are forced to abandon self-employment or a small business (perhaps laying people off in the process) and take an undesired job because of health care? A service that is considered a right in nearly all other industrialized countries? Land of opportunity, my a$$.

How is a scheme like this good for society?

Amen

And I again say, $400,000 house?? It says bought for 55,000 it says in (I read that as being in a district that has some) an area with homes worth such and such. The fact that you are able to pay says something. My ex is in the exact predicament these folks are. Do I eat? or do I buy healthcare? Wow, what a choice! Okay guys! Let's get it going..USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!

And again I say 'no one is disputing the cost of the house...not even the parents'

Are you going to continually ignore that?

The fact that I'm able to pay means I've budgeted my money from another area to pay for my healthcare. That doesn't mean that I have unlimited sums of money...it just means I've prioritized my healthcare as being somewhat of importance.

To AOS despair: if entrepreneurship were such an easily obtainable thing with no risks, everyone would be one. I understand where you're coming from, but it's a bit of a stretch to expect all the rewards with none of the risks. What are you really expecting here? To have your cake and eat it too? I do hate that expression cos it doesn't really make sense to me...after all, what good is cake without being able to eat it....but you get the meaning, no?

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Self employed people have tons of ways to make legitimate deductions on what we earn. You'd be AMAZED at the stuff that one could deduct.....from meals, to vacations! so that $45k figure may not be so accurate.

I could fly to Hawaii, stay in 5 star service, blow a ton of money, and before I come home, hold a seminar on real estate...and apparantly the whole thing is tax deductible! According to this program I'm in btw....this is not personal advice here, and I've never tested it out. 'Tax Strategies for the Self Employed' btw

People I work with (who are not self-employed) are able to do exactly that as well and legimately write it off as business expenses - we are talking about people who earn 6 figbures.

Personally, I'd rather kids had healthcare than upper-middle class people get such incredible tax breaks

[Peikko 1,575]

Not really, health care is one of those things where it is impossible to budget for it, unless you are in the super rich bracket, and that's the point really.

Anyone can budget for housing/food/transportation because these costs are pretty fixed. Who can really budget for health care when no one really knows when they might be faced with the extreme bills that certain conditions generate? Even if you can get health insurance there seems to be no guarantee that that insurance will foot the bill should you need to use it. The only people who are immune from this are people who earn millions and that's a pretty small proportion of the population.

It seems to ridiculous to make the 'take personal responsibility' argument with health care when it simply isn't possible to do.

As for the 'entrepreneurship is all about risk so taking health care out of the equation would somehow debase those who become entrepreneurs' argument that's simply absurd.

[Caladan 19]

They opened themselves up to the criticism by a poor choice.

Exactly. As they say: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

maybe i need to apply for that program, i owe more than double what they paid for their house on my house and you need to get into line too, et

But that's what I am saying, Chuck. It just wouldn't occur to me to ask for help - even if I could - when I know that I am able make the choices that allow me to take care of my family myself. Those programs ought to be for people that - through no fault of their own - cannot support themselves.

A truism about politics: programs for the poor stay poor. (Because otherwise people argue that it's just for welfare queens getting their nails done while driving Lexuses, and the program loses funding because the middle class thinks it's for lazy people.)

I am not sure about his state's laws, but I know in some states you can only qualify for CHIP if you're above a certain income level if you've shown that you can't get insurance anywhere else. Household of six, pre-existing condition, pretty much means no insurance company will have you.

I'm not sure why people are criticizing his decision to become self-employed, because he'll probably generate more wealth and do more by his kids and pay more in taxes than he would have working for someone else. There's enough risks in being self-employed (I'd bet they operated at a loss for a few years, and wouldn't be surprised if that's when they went on CHIP....) and like AOS despair said, is being self-employed such a bad thing that we must make it as hard as possible? One would think the small businessman is the backbone of American society.

In any case, while fact checking is fine (no, they're not disputing the value of the home, but you can't live in a home and use it to buy health insurance), my problem is with the harassment at their home by bloggers. That's just amounting to 'if you stand up for what you think, right or wrong, we'll call in death threats!' Gee, how honorable they are!

[Empress of Groovy 373]

To AOS despair: if entrepreneurship were such an easily obtainable thing with no risks, everyone would be one. I understand where you're coming from, but it's a bit of a stretch to expect all the rewards with none of the risks. What are you really expecting here? To have your cake and eat it too? I do hate that expression cos it doesn't really make sense to me...after all, what good is cake without being able to eat it....but you get the meaning, no?

LisaD, I respectfully disagree with your logic. Not everyone is cut out for self-employment and/or business ownership, and I'm not suggesting some sort of scheme to support people financially while they get their projects off the ground.

Self-employment is fraught with risks, which I know all too well; I've been self-employed for a number of years now, so I understand firsthand the responsibility associated with it (and the excitement, and the anxiety). I think it's a shame that health insurance is a primary consideration for many people when making the decision to leave the relative comfort of regular job for self-employment. People who decide to take plunge, of course, need to concern themselves with all sorts of things, and rightfully so--funding the business, making sure they can support themselves and their families before the business becomes profitable, all the obvious stuff. There are enough challenges, financial and otherwise, associated with self-employment (not the least of which is paying more in taxes). My personal philosophy is that health care should not be the obstacle to self-employment/business ownership that it is for many people in the U.S., particularly those who may have been ill or who have an "uninsurable" family member. In that sense, it is unfair and stacks the system against those who may have been ill in the past.

I would very much like the choice (a favorite word of the conservatives on this issue) to contribute to a comprehensive, sustainable government plan that won't ditch me when I get sick. I'd gladly pay 15% more in taxes to do this--it would be less than I'm paying in health insurance premiums and copayments, and I wouldn't be cringing every time a notice from my insurance company arrives in the mail.

[Fandango 1,439]

Self employed people have tons of ways to make legitimate deductions on what we earn. You'd be AMAZED at the stuff that one could deduct.....from meals, to vacations! so that $45k figure may not be so accurate.

I could fly to Hawaii, stay in 5 star service, blow a ton of money, and before I come home, hold a seminar on real estate...and apparantly the whole thing is tax deductible! According to this program I'm in btw....this is not personal advice here, and I've never tested it out. 'Tax Strategies for the Self Employed' btw

People I work with (who are not self-employed) are able to do exactly that as well and legimately write it off as business expenses - we are talking about people who earn 6 figbures.

Personally, I'd rather kids had healthcare than upper-middle class people get such incredible tax breaks

You've missed my point entirely, Robin......

Not really, health care is one of those things where it is impossible to budget for it, unless you are in the super rich bracket, and that's the point really.

Anyone can budget for housing/food/transportation because these costs are pretty fixed. Who can really budget for health care when no one really knows when they might be faced with the extreme bills that certain conditions generate? Even if you can get health insurance there seems to be no guarantee that that insurance will foot the bill should you need to use it. The only people who are immune from this are people who earn millions and that's a pretty small proportion of the population.

It seems to ridiculous to make the 'take personal responsibility' argument with health care when it simply isn't possible to do.

As for the 'entrepreneurship is all about risk so taking health care out of the equation would somehow debase those who become entrepreneurs' argument that's simply absurd.

One can budget for a comprehensive health INSURANCE which is what I was talking about.

It is possible to be 'personally responsible'...it's just not EASY. There's a difference. I am rated through the roof because of my past medical history...and I could have used that as an excuse to somehow justify me not being responsible, but instead I choose to budget and pay the premiums that I have.

Entrepreneurship IS about taking risks and assuming financial burdens...one can choose to not go this route, and get a job with bennies. Or one can go the route of private insurance and become self employed OR have their spouse cover the health ins while (s)he tries to go self employed. There are choices....the choice of 'the American people should somehow pay for this while I attempt to start my own business to make more money' is #######.

[Fandango 1,439]

To AOS despair: if entrepreneurship were such an easily obtainable thing with no risks, everyone would be one. I understand where you're coming from, but it's a bit of a stretch to expect all the rewards with none of the risks. What are you really expecting here? To have your cake and eat it too? I do hate that expression cos it doesn't really make sense to me...after all, what good is cake without being able to eat it....but you get the meaning, no?

LisaD, I respectfully disagree with your logic. Not everyone is cut out for self-employment and/or business ownership, and I'm not suggesting some sort of scheme to support people financially while they get their projects off the ground.

Self-employment is fraught with risks, which I know all too well; I've been self-employed for a number of years now, so I understand firsthand the responsibility associated with it (and the excitement, and the anxiety). I think it's a shame that health insurance is a primary consideration for many people when making the decision to leave the relative comfort of regular job for self-employment. People who decide to take plunge, of course, need to concern themselves with all sorts of things, and rightfully so--funding the business, making sure they can support themselves and their families before the business becomes profitable, all the obvious stuff. There are enough challenges, financial and otherwise, associated with self-employment (not the least of which is paying more in taxes). My personal philosophy is that health care should not be the obstacle to self-employment/business ownership that it is for many people in the U.S., particularly those who may have been ill or who have an "uninsurable" family member. In that sense, it is unfair and stacks the system against those who may have been ill in the past.

I would very much like the choice (a favorite word of the conservatives on this issue) to contribute to a comprehensive, sustainable government plan that won't ditch me when I get sick. I'd gladly pay 15% more in taxes to do this--it would be less than I'm paying in health insurance premiums and copayments, and I wouldn't be cringing every time a notice from my insurance company arrives in the mail.

I actually agree with most of what you've said....but as to the rest, I'm not sure if you're gettin at universal coverage for everyone, or some sort of universal coverage for the self employed. If it's the latter, I REALLY couldn't disagree more.

As to universal health care plans, I'll leave that topic for another thread.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

People I work with (who are not self-employed) are able to do exactly that as well and legimately write it off as business expenses - we are talking about people who earn 6 figbures.

Personally, I'd rather kids had healthcare than upper-middle class people get such incredible tax breaks

You've missed my point entirely, Robin......

I don't think I did - your point was as a self-employed person he could have been making all sorts of deductions - though if his salary is $45k, they probably don't add up to a lot.

My point is that I have a bigger problem with the fact people who are relatively wealthy can make all kinds of spurious deductions for something that benefits no one but themselves under the guise of "business expenses" - I could deduct my cable bill and all my movie tickets, for example.

I would rather kids have S-Chip than be able to make such deductions.