Nearly 1 in 5 Democrats Say World Will Be Better Off if U.S. Loses War

[DeadPoolX 9]

My take it on it is...

It doesn't really matter. I consider myself a patriot, yet I usually come down somewhere in the middle, between "conservative" and "liberal" so I don't believe that to be a patriot, someone must be one or the other.

The U.S. military is doing very well in combat. Just because we take casualities doesn't mean we're suddenly "losing the war." If you were to look at WWII in that same light, you'd think we should've lost early on. Ultimately, however, it won't matter how well the military does in battle.

What does matter are the psychosocial aspects of the war; not who can kill the most enemies first. The U.S. can do the latter pretty easily. If we really wanted to, we could level the entire area and be done with it. Our entire point to being there (aside from the whole "WMD fiasco") is to help the Iraqi people and protect the America.

Unfortunatly, we're losing that "public relations" aspect of the war very badly. Many in Iraq dislike us there and don't see us as liberators, but as invaders (despite the fact they won't defend themselves, so we have to remain and do it for them!) and a large faction of the American public is extremely unhappy with the way the war has unfolded.

Bottom line? Very little to no support equals a loss. It happened in Vietnam too (where we had one stunning military victory after another), but the support -- both foreign and domestic -- was lacking and therefore, we ended up losing. If you were to look at military history, you'd see that no matter how great a military is, if they lacked the necessary support "back home" or from "those they were aiding," their efforts would eventually fail.

So I believe that's where we are today.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My take it on it is...

It doesn't really matter. I consider myself a patriot, yet I usually come down somewhere in the middle, between "conservative" and "liberal" so I don't believe that to be a patriot, someone must be one or the other.

The U.S. military is doing very well in combat. Just because we take casualities doesn't mean we're suddenly "losing the war." If you were to look at WWII in that same light, you'd think we should've lost early on. Ultimately, however, it won't matter how well the military does in battle.

What does matter are the psychosocial aspects of the war; not who can kill the most enemies first. The U.S. can do the latter pretty easily. If we really wanted to, we could level the entire area and be done with it. Our entire point to being there (aside from the whole "WMD fiasco") is to help the Iraqi people and protect the America.

Unfortunatly, we're losing that "public relations" aspect of the war very badly. Many in Iraq dislike us there and don't see us as liberators, but as invaders (despite the fact they won't defend themselves, so we have to remain and do it for them!) and a large faction of the American public is extremely unhappy with the way the war has unfolded.

Bottom line? Very little to no support equals a loss. It happened in Vietnam too (where we had one stunning military victory after another), but the support -- both foreign and domestic -- was lacking and therefore, we ended up losing. If you were to look at military history, you'd see that no matter how great a military is, if they lacked the necessary support "back home" or from "those they were aiding," their efforts would eventually fail.

So I believe that's where we are today.

Well to get that 'support' you have to be relatively up-front to begin with. People didn't pull the idea that the govt lied about 'justifications' out of thin air.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Disecting a poll to the point of subject change, is so classic. Then out come the fangs of love for my country! Watching people struggling to have it both ways is so dam funny

Like the tommy roe song:

Dizzy

Im so dizzy, my head is spinnin

Like a whirlpool, it never ends

And its you, girl, makin it spin

Youre makin me dizzy

Edited October 8, 2007 by CarolsMarc

[no name 1]

Disecting a poll to the point of subject change, is so classic. Then out come the fangs of love for my country! Watching people struggling to have it both ways is so dam funny

Like the tommy roe song:

Dizzy

Im so dizzy, my head is spinnin

Like a whirlpool, it never ends

And its you, girl, makin it spin

Youre makin me dizzy

post #100 started the subject change...

[GaryC 7]

How exactly do you 'win,' a war against 'terrorism?' It's on the same vein as winning a 'war,' against 'drugs,' because there really is no end and there never will be. There will always be terrorists. We can't wipe them out. It just takes one nut job with a plan and time to create a terrorist attack.

Terrorists exist because they believe in concepts and ideals totally foreign to the average American. Drugs exist because of the demand and profit from an endless stream of users. In order to 'win,' here you have to change the ideals and perceptions of possible terrorists or eliminate the demand for drugs by users. Both are far easier said than done.

The correct idea is the strengthen our borders, provide better screening, take care of our domestic issues, compete economically, strengthen our world image and this we'll reduce the hatred against the country, while at the same time preparing and being ready for domestic terrorist threats and plots.

For the 'war,' aspect we need to plan our exit strategy from Afghanistan and Iraq. Clearly define our goals, fix what we can, teach what we can, and get out. Don't get stuck in a costly quagmire with no end in sight, which is exactly where we are now.

None of which is 'unpatriotic'.

And none of it is wanting us to lose in Iraq. It's a different strategy for winning and is most assuringly patriotic.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Disecting a poll to the point of subject change, is so classic. Then out come the fangs of love for my country! Watching people struggling to have it both ways is so dam funny

Like the tommy roe song:

Dizzy

Im so dizzy, my head is spinnin

Like a whirlpool, it never ends

And its you, girl, makin it spin

Youre makin me dizzy

Call it what you like - the whole 'affected outrage' thing you love to do is unconvincing and disingenuous.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Number 6

[smoke20 0]

we have big brother software at work. it blocks the link. who's speach was it?

ssshhhh! don't tell'em we know how he feels anyway.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And none of it is wanting us to lose in Iraq. It's a different strategy for winning and is most assuringly patriotic.

Where do you stand on the "costly quagmire" bit?

[smoke20 0]

And none of it is wanting us to lose in Iraq. It's a different strategy for winning and is most assuringly patriotic.

Where do you stand on the "costly quagmire" bit?

quagmire...he's my fav on family guy.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

As I said very early on in the thread: Context is a beautiful thing.

And your point (if any) is? This still applies. Or do you mean that unless something fits exactly into the topic at hand it means nothing because of your obsession for "context".

What still applies? That what you presented Clinton to have said didn't really mean what one would have thought it meant by reading just what you presented? That the context in which the remark was made provides some valuable information and changes how one perceives the statement that was made even though the satement itself still is the very same? Get my drift?

The context didn't change the idea. To hate the government or to hate America precludes patriotism.

To hate the government - in general with all the branches and all that comes with it as those the comments were addressed to do - precludes patriotism. What else is new? The government is, after all, an integral part of this country of ours.

On the other hand, one can hate the Bush (or any other) administration without actually hating the government. As much as the Bushies would like to think so, they ain't one and the same.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Disecting a poll to the point of subject change, is so classic. Then out come the fangs of love for my country! Watching people struggling to have it both ways is so dam funny

Like the tommy roe song:

Dizzy

Im so dizzy, my head is spinnin

Like a whirlpool, it never ends

And its you, girl, makin it spin

Youre makin me dizzy

Call it what you like - the whole 'affected outrage' thing you love to do is unconvincing and disingenuous.

Cop out! cop out! NON-answer alert!!!!!!!!!

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

And none of it is wanting us to lose in Iraq. It's a different strategy for winning and is most assuringly patriotic.

Where do you stand on the "costly quagmire" bit?

Straight from the liberal talking point rolodex! The sun is shining so bright here!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Disecting a poll to the point of subject change, is so classic. Then out come the fangs of love for my country! Watching people struggling to have it both ways is so dam funny

Like the tommy roe song:

Dizzy

Im so dizzy, my head is spinnin

Like a whirlpool, it never ends

And its you, girl, makin it spin

Youre makin me dizzy

Call it what you like - the whole 'affected outrage' thing you love to do is unconvincing and disingenuous.

Cop out! cop out! NON-answer alert!!!!!!!!!

Are you sure you want to go to red alert Marc? It will mean changing the bulb....

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'd like to know why patriotism has been the talk of the day lately? I've noticed on c-span, during the Blackwater hearings, several Republicans in Congress bring the issue up? To even question other American's patriotism is absurd, IMO. I don't think any American is in a position to quantify other American's love for their country and doing so is just chest thumping self righteousness. Worry about yourself, in what you believe in, and what you stand for, and recognize that what it means to be American means freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and freedom of dissent.

This seems like half-hearted attempt at distracting Americans from looking at what is happening to this country.

Steve, tell me what you think of this quote. It was made to a college graduation ceremony.

How dare you suggest that we in the freest nation on Earth live in

tyranny. How dare you call yourselves patriots and heroes.

I say to you, all of you there is nothing patriotic about hating your country,

or pretending that you can love your country but despise your government.

There is nothing heroic about turning your back on America, or ignoring your own

responsibilities. If you want to preserve your own freedom, you must

stand up for the freedom of others with whom you disagree. But you also

must stand up for the rule of law. You cannot have one without the

other.

The real American heroes today are the citizens who get up every

morning and have the courage to work hard and play by the rules -- the

mother who stays up the extra half hour after a long day's work to read

her child a story; the rescue worker who digs with his hands in the

rubble as the building crumbles about him; the neighbor who lives

side-by-side with people different from himself; the government worker

who quietly and efficiently labors to see to it that the programs we

depend on are honestly and properly carried out; most of all, the parent

who works long years for modest pay and sacrifices so that his or her

children can have the education that you have had, and the chances you

are going to have. I ask you never to forget that.

Does this fall under your point of chest thumping? Does it fall under your definition of calling peoples patriotism in question?

Here is who said it.

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Politics/Speech/...0No%20Questions

Very interesting that you posted that speech because this is the point I've brought up many times before when the issue of patriotism comes up. During Clinton's presidency, many many people hated him. I mean really hated him. He was addressing the militias in this country specifically, many of whom had nothing but contempt for his presidency as a government gone wrong. While he supported their dissent, he was condemning anyone who uses violence to justify their ends, and particular with the Oklahoma bombing, these were militia men who targeted a Federal building.

Here's the preceeding 2 paragraphs:

So I say this to the militias and all others who believe that the

greatest threat to freedom comes from the government instead of from

those who would take away our freedom: If you say violence is an

acceptable way to make change, you are wrong. If you say that

government is in a conspiracy to take your freedom away, you are just

plain wrong. (Applause.)

If you treat law enforcement officers who put their lives on the line

for your safety every day like some kind of enemy army to be suspected,

derided and, if they should enforce the law against you, to be shot, you

are wrong. (Applause.) If you appropriate our sacred symbols for

paranoid purposes and compare yourselves to colonial militias who fought

for the democracy you now rail against, you are wrong. (Applause.)

It's ironic that many of these militias believed they in fact were being patriotic with their contempt for Clinton's presidency and policies, while people on the Right, since GW Bush became President have equated such contempt as anti-American.

Clinton is making the distinction between dissent and using violence as a political tool. Dissent is in fact patriotic, but using violent means to achieve political change is not.

He was and is a brilliant man.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Disecting a poll to the point of subject change, is so classic. Then out come the fangs of love for my country! Watching people struggling to have it both ways is so dam funny

Like the tommy roe song:

Dizzy

Im so dizzy, my head is spinnin

Like a whirlpool, it never ends

And its you, girl, makin it spin

Youre makin me dizzy

Call it what you like - the whole 'affected outrage' thing you love to do is unconvincing and disingenuous.

Cop out! cop out! NON-answer alert!!!!!!!!!

Are you sure you want to go to red alert Marc? It will mean changing the bulb....

No problem, heres a ladder so you can reach it!