Nearly 1 in 5 Democrats Say World Will Be Better Off if U.S. Loses War

[Peikko 1,575]

It seems to me, that there are a few people who are willing to suspend belief in their own experience and buy into a suspect poll. That's the bit I can't understand. I have never heard one person express the idea that it would be good for the world if the US had it's ####### kicked in relation to Iraq, I have heard people express a wish to withdraw US troops. I believe there are some nut jobs but not as many as 11%, that's just not realistic. Therefore, IMO this poll is at bust flawed, at worst downright misleading so why would I want to draw any conclusions about the makeup or policies of the Democratic party(or the Republican Party) based on it?

[Dan J 277]

It seems to me, that there are a few people who are willing to suspend belief in their own experience and buy into a suspect poll. That's the bit I can't understand. I have never heard one person express the idea that it would be good for the world if the US had it's ####### kicked in relation to Iraq, I have heard people express a wish to withdraw US troops. I believe there are some nut jobs but not as many as 11%, that's just not realistic. Therefore, IMO this poll is at bust flawed, at worst downright misleading so why would I want to draw any conclusions about the makeup or policies of the Democratic party(or the Republican Party) based on it?

Well some equate withdrawing to losing. So, yes the poll is rather misleading.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

why are we debating on Fox poll anyway??

Me personally, just because I am home alone and really have nothing meaningful to do.

the yard isn't going to cut itself

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

why are we debating on Fox poll anyway??

Me personally, just because I am home alone and really have nothing meaningful to do.

the yard isn't going to cut itself

I know, I know. Besides the grass that needs a cut, I still need to go on my 4 mile run. But this is Florida and both these activities will have to wait 'til it cools down a bit in the late afternoon / early evening. I'll get to the cutting here shortly and do the run after that.

[Marilyn. 340]

they only polled 900 people... to me that isn't enough people to say that 11 percent of people want the US to lose the war....

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

why are we debating on Fox poll anyway??

Me personally, just because I am home alone and really have nothing meaningful to do.

the yard isn't going to cut itself

I know, I know. Besides the grass that needs a cut, I still need to go on my 4 mile run. But this is Florida and both these activities will have to wait 'til it cools down a bit in the late afternoon / early evening. I'll get to the cutting here shortly and do the run after that.

be happy you ain't got my yard, 4-5 hours on a 42" riding mower

and now that the leaves are starting to fall, another 3-4 hours a week picking them up!

[Dan J 277]

they only polled 900 people... to me that isn't enough people to say that 11 percent of people want the US to lose the war....

Thats the idea of polling, you ask a group 500-2000 people the same questions and hopefully get a pretty good idea of what the nation thinks. However its not not very accurate. Pollers cant call cell phones and there are some limits with the no call lists. Which limits an accurate sampling of everyone in the country. Those who are young professionals for example are much more likely to have just a cell phone.

Also, most questions are biased in some way and the answers are only multiple choice. The answer chosen may not accurately capture a persons opinion.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Was there mention of the sampling methology in the article? I went to the company's website, but couldn't find anything.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Was there mention of the sampling methology in the article? I went to the company's website, but couldn't find anything.

No there wasn't anything to that effect either. Pretty sloppy job. But then, well, I don't have to say it...

[GaryC 7]

I'd like to know why patriotism has been the talk of the day lately? I've noticed on c-span, during the Blackwater hearings, several Republicans in Congress bring the issue up? To even question other American's patriotism is absurd, IMO. I don't think any American is in a position to quantify other American's love for their country and doing so is just chest thumping self righteousness. Worry about yourself, in what you believe in, and what you stand for, and recognize that what it means to be American means freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and freedom of dissent.

This seems like half-hearted attempt at distracting Americans from looking at what is happening to this country.

Steve, tell me what you think of this quote. It was made to a college graduation ceremony.

How dare you suggest that we in the freest nation on Earth live in

tyranny. How dare you call yourselves patriots and heroes.

I say to you, all of you there is nothing patriotic about hating your country,

or pretending that you can love your country but despise your government.

There is nothing heroic about turning your back on America, or ignoring your own

responsibilities. If you want to preserve your own freedom, you must

stand up for the freedom of others with whom you disagree. But you also

must stand up for the rule of law. You cannot have one without the

other.

The real American heroes today are the citizens who get up every

morning and have the courage to work hard and play by the rules -- the

mother who stays up the extra half hour after a long day's work to read

her child a story; the rescue worker who digs with his hands in the

rubble as the building crumbles about him; the neighbor who lives

side-by-side with people different from himself; the government worker

who quietly and efficiently labors to see to it that the programs we

depend on are honestly and properly carried out; most of all, the parent

who works long years for modest pay and sacrifices so that his or her

children can have the education that you have had, and the chances you

are going to have. I ask you never to forget that.

Does this fall under your point of chest thumping? Does it fall under your definition of calling peoples patriotism in question?

Here is who said it.

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Politics/Speech/...0No%20Questions

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

interesting, i'd never have guessed he said that.

[Peikko 1,575]

There is a context, the context is with the taking the law into your own hands and the Oklahoma bombing There is nothing to suggest that everyone has to agree with the government at all times, in fact, quite the opposite. What he is against, is violent change, the idea that 1995 the government was in such disarray that it would be legitimate for a militia to make change. There is a huge gap between claiming someone is unpatriotic for criticizing policies, and those who want to back up their criticism with violence. I am not sure what militias he is referring to explicitly but it is those militias that he is primarily addressing with his reference to unpatriotic.

I want to say this to the militias and to others who believe this, to

those nearby and those far away: I am well aware that most of you have

never violated the law of the land. I welcome the comments that some of

you have made recently condemning the bombing in Oklahoma City. I

believe you have every right, indeed you have the responsibility, to

question our government when you disagree with its policies. And I will

do everything in my power to protect your right to do so.

But I also know there have been lawbreakers among those who espouse

your philosophy. I know from painful personal experience as a governor

of a state who lived through the cold-blooded killing of a young sheriff

and a young African American state trooper who were friends of mine by

people who espouse the view that the government was the biggest problem

in America and that peopole had a right to take violence into their own

hands.

So I ask you to hear me now. It is one thing to believe that the

federal government has too much power and to work within the law to

reduce it. It is quite another to break the law of the land and

threaten to shoot officers of the law if all they do is their duty to

uphold it.

It is one thing to believe we are taxed too much and work to reduce

the tax burden. It is quite another to refuse to pay your taxes, though

your neighbor pays his. It is one thing to believe we are

over-regulated and to work to lessen the burden of regulation. It is

quite another to slander our dedicated public servants, our brave police

officers, even our rescue workers who have been called a hostile army of

occupation.

This is a very free country. Those of you in the militia movements

have broader rights here than you would in any other country in the

entire world. (Applause.)

[GaryC 7]

There is a context, the context is with the taking the law into your own hands and the Oklahoma bombing There is nothing to suggest that everyone has to agree with the government at all times, in fact, quite the opposite. What he is against, is violent change, the idea that 1995 the government was in such disarray that it would be legitimate for a militia to make change. There is a huge gap between claiming someone is unpatriotic for criticizing policies, and those who want to back up their criticism with violence. I am not sure what militias he is referring to explicitly but it is those militias that he is primarily addressing with his reference to unpatriotic.

I want to say this to the militias and to others who believe this, to

those nearby and those far away: I am well aware that most of you have

never violated the law of the land. I welcome the comments that some of

you have made recently condemning the bombing in Oklahoma City. I

believe you have every right, indeed you have the responsibility, to

question our government when you disagree with its policies. And I will

do everything in my power to protect your right to do so.

But I also know there have been lawbreakers among those who espouse

your philosophy. I know from painful personal experience as a governor

of a state who lived through the cold-blooded killing of a young sheriff

and a young African American state trooper who were friends of mine by

people who espouse the view that the government was the biggest problem

in America and that peopole had a right to take violence into their own

hands.

So I ask you to hear me now. It is one thing to believe that the

federal government has too much power and to work within the law to

reduce it. It is quite another to break the law of the land and

threaten to shoot officers of the law if all they do is their duty to

uphold it.

It is one thing to believe we are taxed too much and work to reduce

the tax burden. It is quite another to refuse to pay your taxes, though

your neighbor pays his. It is one thing to believe we are

over-regulated and to work to lessen the burden of regulation. It is

quite another to slander our dedicated public servants, our brave police

officers, even our rescue workers who have been called a hostile army of

occupation.

This is a very free country. Those of you in the militia movements

have broader rights here than you would in any other country in the

entire world. (Applause.)

It applies to todays criticism of those that want us to lose the war also. Face it, the majority of Americans feel that those who hate our country or want it to fail are in no way patriots. That includes people that want us to fail in this war on terror.

[smoke20 0]

we have big brother software at work. it blocks the link. who's speach was it?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

There is a context, the context is with the taking the law into your own hands and the Oklahoma bombing There is nothing to suggest that everyone has to agree with the government at all times, in fact, quite the opposite. What he is against, is violent change, the idea that 1995 the government was in such disarray that it would be legitimate for a militia to make change. There is a huge gap between claiming someone is unpatriotic for criticizing policies, and those who want to back up their criticism with violence. I am not sure what militias he is referring to explicitly but it is those militias that he is primarily addressing with his reference to unpatriotic.

I want to say this to the militias and to others who believe this, to

those nearby and those far away: I am well aware that most of you have

never violated the law of the land. I welcome the comments that some of

you have made recently condemning the bombing in Oklahoma City. I

believe you have every right, indeed you have the responsibility, to

question our government when you disagree with its policies. And I will

do everything in my power to protect your right to do so.

But I also know there have been lawbreakers among those who espouse

your philosophy. I know from painful personal experience as a governor

of a state who lived through the cold-blooded killing of a young sheriff

and a young African American state trooper who were friends of mine by

people who espouse the view that the government was the biggest problem

in America and that peopole had a right to take violence into their own

hands.

So I ask you to hear me now. It is one thing to believe that the

federal government has too much power and to work within the law to

reduce it. It is quite another to break the law of the land and

threaten to shoot officers of the law if all they do is their duty to

uphold it.

It is one thing to believe we are taxed too much and work to reduce

the tax burden. It is quite another to refuse to pay your taxes, though

your neighbor pays his. It is one thing to believe we are

over-regulated and to work to lessen the burden of regulation. It is

quite another to slander our dedicated public servants, our brave police

officers, even our rescue workers who have been called a hostile army of

occupation.

This is a very free country. Those of you in the militia movements

have broader rights here than you would in any other country in the

entire world. (Applause.)

As I said very early on in the thread: Context is a beautiful thing.