Nearly 1 in 5 Democrats Say World Will Be Better Off if U.S. Loses War

[Marilyn. 340]

how is 900 people 11% of Americans?? or am I reading it wrong??

when I was doing a Google search to try and find the whole poll, I found it interesting that all the other FOX polls gave all the poll questions except this one

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I think I made my point, you guys spin it however you want.

What point? That a quarter of Republicans do not want this war to come to an end?

Does that mean that anyone that doesn't pray for the war to end wants it to go on forever?

No, it doesn't. In fact, I don't know what it means. It's open for interpretation based on specific context (the qualitative dimension). As is the case with any of the purely qualitative results that have been presented here. The context is what Fox chose to keep hidden from the readers. I still wonder why?

Actually, I don't wonder as I won't waste my time speculating on this nonsense report.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

when I was doing a Google search to try and find the whole poll, I found it interesting that all the other FOX polls gave all the poll questions except this one

That's the point. No serious news reporting would do that. Fox apparently would.

You're mixing 'lose' with 'end'. Apples and oranges.

I referred to a different question.

[GaryC 7]

Gary, I was simply pointing out that to base any conclusions on this particular rather flawed poll was a waste of time. Now you are bringing a completely different argument into the thread. What is your point? Are you really so one track that you can't see beyond Republican = Good, Democratic = Evil? Are you really so desperate to paint anyone who might have a democratic leaning as unpatriotic? Why?

No, but I do think that anyone that WANTS America to lose unpatriotic. And I acknowledge that there are some reps that answered yes to that question also. Those people I detest also. Everyone has the right to have their opinion of the war. But I don't have any regard for someone that wants us to lose.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Gary, I was simply pointing out that to base any conclusions on this particular rather flawed poll was a waste of time. Now you are bringing a completely different argument into the thread. What is your point? Are you really so one track that you can't see beyond Republican = Good, Democratic = Evil? Are you really so desperate to paint anyone who might have a democratic leaning as unpatriotic? Why?

No, but I do think that anyone that WANTS America to lose unpatriotic. And I acknowledge that there are some reps that answered yes to that question also. Those people I detest also. Everyone has the right to have their opinion of the war. But I don't have any regard for someone that wants us to lose.

That's fair - but again you are basing this on a specific interpretation of an emotionally loaded question.

Without knowing how the many people who took part in that survey read and responded to that question - calling a person 'unpatriotic' or detestable isn't really fair IMO.

I think if you were to question (any) of the respondents directly - they'd have a rather more detailed explanation of their views than can be drawn from a single survey question.

[GaryC 7]

Gary, I was simply pointing out that to base any conclusions on this particular rather flawed poll was a waste of time. Now you are bringing a completely different argument into the thread. What is your point? Are you really so one track that you can't see beyond Republican = Good, Democratic = Evil? Are you really so desperate to paint anyone who might have a democratic leaning as unpatriotic? Why?

No, but I do think that anyone that WANTS America to lose unpatriotic. And I acknowledge that there are some reps that answered yes to that question also. Those people I detest also. Everyone has the right to have their opinion of the war. But I don't have any regard for someone that wants us to lose.

That's fair - but again you are basing this on a specific interpretation of an emotionally loaded question.

Without knowing how the many people who took part in that survey read and responded to that question - calling a person 'unpatriotic' or detestable isn't really fair IMO.

I think if you were to question (any) of the respondents directly - they'd have a rather more detailed explanation of their views than can be drawn from a single survey question.

All I know is this, when asked a question like "do you think the world would be "better off" if America lost the war" is a hard question to answer yes to and still have any patriotism. They didn't ask if they were pro or anti war, they asked if the world would be "better off". My mind just can't conceive a rational that would allow an American to answer yes to that. Because by extension that means they either want Iraq to sink into a bloodbath, have the terrorists take it over or have Iran annex the country. Unless your a pro terrorist none of those outcomes would be better for the world.

Edited October 7, 2007 by GaryC

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'd like to know why patriotism has been the talk of the day lately? I've noticed on c-span, during the Blackwater hearings, several Republicans in Congress bring the issue up? To even question other American's patriotism is absurd, IMO. I don't think any American is in a position to quantify other American's love for their country and doing so is just chest thumping self righteousness. Worry about yourself, in what you believe in, and what you stand for, and recognize that what it means to be American means freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and freedom of dissent.

This seems like half-hearted attempt at distracting Americans from looking at what is happening to this country.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[Dan J 277]

Gary, I was simply pointing out that to base any conclusions on this particular rather flawed poll was a waste of time. Now you are bringing a completely different argument into the thread. What is your point? Are you really so one track that you can't see beyond Republican = Good, Democratic = Evil? Are you really so desperate to paint anyone who might have a democratic leaning as unpatriotic? Why?

No, but I do think that anyone that WANTS America to lose unpatriotic. And I acknowledge that there are some reps that answered yes to that question also. Those people I detest also. Everyone has the right to have their opinion of the war. But I don't have any regard for someone that wants us to lose.

That's fair - but again you are basing this on a specific interpretation of an emotionally loaded question.

Without knowing how the many people who took part in that survey read and responded to that question - calling a person 'unpatriotic' or detestable isn't really fair IMO.

I think if you were to question (any) of the respondents directly - they'd have a rather more detailed explanation of their views than can be drawn from a single survey question.

All I know is this, when asked a question like "do you think the world would be "better off" if America lost the war" is a hard question to answer yes to and still have any patriotism. They didn't ask if they were pro or anti war, they asked if the world would be "better off". My mind just can't conceive a rational that would allow an American to answer yes to that. Because by extension that means they either want Iraq to sink into a bloodbath, have the terrorists take it over or have Iran annex the country. Unless your a pro terrorist none of those outcomes would be better for the world.

Right, because you don't know what patriotism actually means.

Love of and devotion to one's country.

You can maintain patriotism in full opposition to the war. Especially if you believe that war will harm your country.

But if you were to say those who wanted the US to lose were un-nationalistic, your probably more correct.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

From the military dictionary:

n. 1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.

2. an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

3. advocacy of political independence for a particular country: Palestinian nationalism.

There are those who perceive that continuing in Iraq will cause more damage to the US over time, than just leaving right now. It doesn't make them unpatriotic. In fact, they are just as much a patriot as you claim to be, but have a different perspective on what is good and what isn't for our country.

Iraq is really a political war. Our country was not in danger, our values were not at stake. We went in for political reasons. We went in unprepared for our responsibilities of running the country afterwards. We went in with out understanding the people and culture we were suppose to be protecting.

Patriotism, doesn't really have a place in the Iraq war. But nationalism does.

[pedroh 21]

why are we debating on Fox poll anyway??

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Gary, I was simply pointing out that to base any conclusions on this particular rather flawed poll was a waste of time. Now you are bringing a completely different argument into the thread. What is your point? Are you really so one track that you can't see beyond Republican = Good, Democratic = Evil? Are you really so desperate to paint anyone who might have a democratic leaning as unpatriotic? Why?

No, but I do think that anyone that WANTS America to lose unpatriotic. And I acknowledge that there are some reps that answered yes to that question also. Those people I detest also. Everyone has the right to have their opinion of the war. But I don't have any regard for someone that wants us to lose.

That's fair - but again you are basing this on a specific interpretation of an emotionally loaded question.

Without knowing how the many people who took part in that survey read and responded to that question - calling a person 'unpatriotic' or detestable isn't really fair IMO.

I think if you were to question (any) of the respondents directly - they'd have a rather more detailed explanation of their views than can be drawn from a single survey question.

All I know is this, when asked a question like "do you think the world would be "better off" if America lost the war" is a hard question to answer yes to and still have any patriotism. They didn't ask if they were pro or anti war, they asked if the world would be "better off". My mind just can't conceive a rational that would allow an American to answer yes to that. Because by extension that means they either want Iraq to sink into a bloodbath, have the terrorists take it over or have Iran annex the country. Unless your a pro terrorist none of those outcomes would be better for the world.

Well another way of framing that question might be "Does America deserve to win the war in Iraq?". It's equally emotionally loaded, open to a lot of interpretation and equally useless IMO - but again if there was a "please explain why" aspect to it, you wouldn't need to fill in the blanks to 'assume' the opinion of people who respond to it. That's the problem with these type of surveys - questions with black and white answers are necessary to doing the thing quickly and efficiently - but you run into problems IMO if you try to extrapolate too much from a "yes" to a particular question. People's views simply aren't that black and white. And that's before you deal with leading questions - which don't permit people to express their views in any favorable way.

We are essentially dealing with a large and complex public debate ranging from the justifications to go to war, our conduct in fighting it as well as planning and implementing the reconstruction and subsequent political handover of power. A person might answer "yes" based simply on any one of those things, and that's before you even start to look at the considerations of what "losing the war" or "world being better off" actually means.

Correct me if I misinterpret your views - but you for instance, don't consider the "Justifications" aspect to be particularly important in this context. Others clearly do, and that cannot be denied. Others put the welfare of our troops over the lives of foreign civilians (or simply don't consider it a priority). Still others might want the US to withdraw its troops to put a final indictment on the Bush administration. That's not to say that there aren't really crazy or extreme people out there who explicitly sympathise with terrorists, Iran, Syria, North Korea etc. and want to see the US kicked out of Iraq and its citizens abroad (and at home) subject to terrorist attack - but to be honest with you I think you'll find those people to be the smallest minority of opinion that there is. So again to draw this sort of bald conclusion from a single survey question strikes me as rather disingenuous. Point is - people's priorities are very different and I'm not sure how can you assume anything in but the most superficial way what a person means when they answer a deliberately loaded question that relies on a lot of relative terminology.

It does also depend on what you consider to be "patriotism", which is an umbrella term in itself. I suspect my view of "being a patriot" differs in significant respects from yours. But there you are...

Edited October 7, 2007 by Number 6

[GaryC 7]

Gary, I was simply pointing out that to base any conclusions on this particular rather flawed poll was a waste of time. Now you are bringing a completely different argument into the thread. What is your point? Are you really so one track that you can't see beyond Republican = Good, Democratic = Evil? Are you really so desperate to paint anyone who might have a democratic leaning as unpatriotic? Why?

No, but I do think that anyone that WANTS America to lose unpatriotic. And I acknowledge that there are some reps that answered yes to that question also. Those people I detest also. Everyone has the right to have their opinion of the war. But I don't have any regard for someone that wants us to lose.

That's fair - but again you are basing this on a specific interpretation of an emotionally loaded question.

Without knowing how the many people who took part in that survey read and responded to that question - calling a person 'unpatriotic' or detestable isn't really fair IMO.

I think if you were to question (any) of the respondents directly - they'd have a rather more detailed explanation of their views than can be drawn from a single survey question.

All I know is this, when asked a question like "do you think the world would be "better off" if America lost the war" is a hard question to answer yes to and still have any patriotism. They didn't ask if they were pro or anti war, they asked if the world would be "better off". My mind just can't conceive a rational that would allow an American to answer yes to that. Because by extension that means they either want Iraq to sink into a bloodbath, have the terrorists take it over or have Iran annex the country. Unless your a pro terrorist none of those outcomes would be better for the world.

Right, because you don't know what patriotism actually means.

Love of and devotion to one's country.

You can maintain patriotism in full opposition to the war. Especially if you believe that war will harm your country.

But if you were to say those who wanted the US to lose were un-nationalistic, your probably more correct.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

From the military dictionary:

n. 1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.

2. an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

3. advocacy of political independence for a particular country: Palestinian nationalism.

There are those who perceive that continuing in Iraq will cause more damage to the US over time, than just leaving right now. It doesn't make them unpatriotic. In fact, they are just as much a patriot as you claim to be, but have a different perspective on what is good and what isn't for our country.

Iraq is really a political war. Our country was not in danger, our values were not at stake. We went in for political reasons. We went in unprepared for our responsibilities of running the country afterwards. We went in with out understanding the people and culture we were suppose to be protecting.

Patriotism, doesn't really have a place in the Iraq war. But nationalism does.

Total BS. Someone can be against the war and be patriotic but anyone that wants us to lose the war cannot be patriotic. Someone wanting us to get out of the war isn't the same as someone saying they want us to LOSE. There is no other way to spin it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Patriotism, doesn't really have a place in the Iraq war. But nationalism does.

Agreed. That's a pretty accurate distinction.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Total BS. Someone can be against the war and be patriotic but anyone that wants us to lose the war cannot be patriotic. Someone wanting us to get out of the war isn't the same as someone saying they want us to LOSE. There is no other way to spin it.

Again it depends by what you mean by "lose". We've already seen how people can't separate the founding values of this country from the agenda of the politicians who run it. So again - is it that unreasonable to think that someone might associate America losing with Bush losing? It's not really that alien to our currently polarised dialogues.

Without wanting to go back through the archives - I'm pretty certain that claims have been made (in several of the Iraq war threads going back 2-3 years that people who support withdrawal are "unamerican traitors". Unless my memory is highly defective that is...

I believe I've also called you a fascist in the past in response to something you posted in relation to me and others being labelled socialists and communists. Are you really saying that our views are really that black and white that we can boil them down to totalitarian extremes. I think we're both more intelligent... And I also think we know the truth.... Neither of us are really 'that' extreme.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Number 6

[Dan J 277]

Gary, I was simply pointing out that to base any conclusions on this particular rather flawed poll was a waste of time. Now you are bringing a completely different argument into the thread. What is your point? Are you really so one track that you can't see beyond Republican = Good, Democratic = Evil? Are you really so desperate to paint anyone who might have a democratic leaning as unpatriotic? Why?

No, but I do think that anyone that WANTS America to lose unpatriotic. And I acknowledge that there are some reps that answered yes to that question also. Those people I detest also. Everyone has the right to have their opinion of the war. But I don't have any regard for someone that wants us to lose.

That's fair - but again you are basing this on a specific interpretation of an emotionally loaded question.

Without knowing how the many people who took part in that survey read and responded to that question - calling a person 'unpatriotic' or detestable isn't really fair IMO.

I think if you were to question (any) of the respondents directly - they'd have a rather more detailed explanation of their views than can be drawn from a single survey question.

All I know is this, when asked a question like "do you think the world would be "better off" if America lost the war" is a hard question to answer yes to and still have any patriotism. They didn't ask if they were pro or anti war, they asked if the world would be "better off". My mind just can't conceive a rational that would allow an American to answer yes to that. Because by extension that means they either want Iraq to sink into a bloodbath, have the terrorists take it over or have Iran annex the country. Unless your a pro terrorist none of those outcomes would be better for the world.

Right, because you don't know what patriotism actually means.

Love of and devotion to one's country.

You can maintain patriotism in full opposition to the war. Especially if you believe that war will harm your country.

But if you were to say those who wanted the US to lose were un-nationalistic, your probably more correct.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

From the military dictionary:

n. 1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.

2. an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

3. advocacy of political independence for a particular country: Palestinian nationalism.

There are those who perceive that continuing in Iraq will cause more damage to the US over time, than just leaving right now. It doesn't make them unpatriotic. In fact, they are just as much a patriot as you claim to be, but have a different perspective on what is good and what isn't for our country.

Iraq is really a political war. Our country was not in danger, our values were not at stake. We went in for political reasons. We went in unprepared for our responsibilities of running the country afterwards. We went in with out understanding the people and culture we were suppose to be protecting.

Patriotism, doesn't really have a place in the Iraq war. But nationalism does.

Total BS. Someone can be against the war and be patriotic but anyone that wants us to lose the war cannot be patriotic. Someone wanting us to get out of the war isn't the same as someone saying they want us to LOSE. There is no other way to spin it.

What part of the definition of patriotism requires support for a countries wars? Especially wars that harm our country?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

why are we debating on Fox poll anyway??

Me personally, just because I am home alone and really have nothing meaningful to do.