Universal Health Coverage --- Call It Socialized Medicine

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

I'm a victim of what exactly, in your opinion?

Look inside yourself.I dont know you that well.

You are a master of saying nothing, while attempting to appeal to a sense of outrage. I don't believe too many people are suckered into it though.

I am a master at nothing? Yet you understand what I am appealing to. The outrage you speak of is in you, not me.

I'm a victim of what exactly, in your opinion?

You are a master of saying nothing, while attempting to appeal to a sense of outrage. I don't believe too many people are suckered into it though.

Nah, too busy rolling my eyes in his general direction.

Roll your eyes inward and have a look! Then we can talk.

I'm a victim of what exactly, in your opinion?

You are a master of saying nothing, while attempting to appeal to a sense of outrage. I don't believe too many people are suckered into it though.

Nah, too busy rolling my eyes in his general direction.

Yep.

I can post the same .

Edited October 7, 2007 by CarolsMarc

[britty 1]

IMO, if you introduce a UHC system, a huge number of people who are currently insured are not going to see any benefits in staying insured. They will simply utilize the "free" healthcare system. The people currently uninsured or under insured are going to find that their wait times will increase with all the new people entering the system. The government will then begin rationing as their won't be enough funds to support the system and all the people trying to use it. Just pop across the atlantic to the UK and you will find 70 year olds waiting in excess of 2 years for a hip operation, or MRI scan refusal as it is simply "too expensive". If you think care for those uninsured is unacceptable now, a UHC system will make it even worse.

[Peikko 1,575]

As has been said over and over, it is infinitely preferable to have the opportunity to be on a waiting list for non urgent surgery than to feel that your non urgent surgery is so expensive you can't even go to the Dr to find out what the waiting list might be.

I have no idea what part of the UK you lived in, but you are painting a very bleak picture of what is in fact a very successful UHC system. I challenge you to find one 70 year old on any waiting list in the UK who would willingly exchange their current care for a system where there would be every chance that instead of waiting 2 years, (which is by no means universal across the UK, if it is true at all!) they wouldn't even get to see a Dr.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

IMO, if you introduce a UHC system, a huge number of people who are currently insured are not going to see any benefits in staying insured. They will simply utilize the "free" healthcare system. The people currently uninsured or under insured are going to find that their wait times will increase with all the new people entering the system. The government will then begin rationing as their won't be enough funds to support the system and all the people trying to use it. Just pop across the atlantic to the UK and you will find 70 year olds waiting in excess of 2 years for a hip operation, or MRI scan refusal as it is simply "too expensive". If you think care for those uninsured is unacceptable now, a UHC system will make it even worse.

What I find very Ironic, are the ones that hate the government for somethings .Yet have the willingness to trust them with their healthcare.

[Peikko 1,575]

Marc, with every post you make less and less sense. I am not claiming to be a victim of anything, nor do I feel myself to be one. I didn't claim you were a master of nothing, I said you are a master of saying nothing, while at the same time you attempt to create a sense of outrage, which in fact for the most part you fail to achieve, except in those few who are driven by emotion not argument.

[Peikko 1,575]

Who exactly hates the government? Lots of people can find fault, would like to make changes, but that is a far cry from hate, which is a pretty senseless emotion when dealing with government anyway.

[BabyBlueSusie 1]

i just dont understand the train of thought really...to me its just logic...if we have public schools, that means that everyone who lives in america, regardless of economic status, is entitled to have an education...how come the same logic does not apply to healthcare? i dont think it takes much common sense to see why everyone having healthcare should be considered a right as a citizen of the richest country in the world...

the 'not having a choice of which care id receive' argument is nonsense, because the same thing applies to school...everyone should be covered, but there will always be people who will feel that they deserve better than the minimum...these people could then purchase private healthcare, kinda like having your kids go to private rather than public school...even the system i just described is not perfect, but far better than the system that we have in place now...

people complain about being taxed too much, but honestly theres not much of a difference between the average percentage of income tax in the united states and in countries that have socialized medicine...look it up, i dare you...in some cases, people in other countries actually pay less than we do, and they get more...maybe people wouldnt be so opposed to taxation if our government would actually show citizens what it is they are paying for...the reason people hate higher taxes is often because they dont think that they will be seeing the benefits of doing so...wed rather spend our tax money on war than on providing medicine for the lower class

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Who exactly hates the government? Lots of people can find fault, would like to make changes, but that is a far cry from hate, which is a pretty senseless emotion when dealing with government anyway.

Purple please, hair splitting does nothing to further your argument. Lets cahnge my wording to dislike. Now what?

Edited October 7, 2007 by CarolsMarc

[BabyBlueSusie 1]

What I find very Ironic, are the ones that hate the government for somethings .Yet have the willingness to trust them with their healthcare.

it goes the other way as well...people who often 'blindly follow' government action (ie:war), are completely unwilling to allow the government to control medicine, because all of a sudden, they dont trust the government anymore

perhaps its not the simple...perhaps the people that you are referring to actually have thoughts behind their ideas, other than 'i hate the government'...perhaps the people that i mentioned, have thoughts behind their ideas, other than 'america is always right, and the government knows best'...people dont generally think inside a tiny little box, although we would like to think they do...

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

What I find very Ironic, are the ones that hate the government for somethings .Yet have the willingness to trust them with their healthcare.

it goes the other way as well...people who often 'blindly follow' government action (ie:war), are completely unwilling to allow the government to control medicine, because all of a sudden, they dont trust the government anymore

perhaps its not the simple...perhaps the people that you are referring to actually have thoughts behind their ideas, other than 'i hate the government'...perhaps the people that i mentioned, have thoughts behind their ideas, other than 'america is always right, and the government knows best'...people dont generally think inside a tiny little box, although we would like to think they do...

Learning from our mistakes go back to our childhood. A bad decision is only realised by the consequenses of it. Life is very very simple, we all just like to make it complicated.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

i just dont understand the train of thought really...to me its just logic...if we have public schools, that means that everyone who lives in america, regardless of economic status, is entitled to have an education...how come the same logic does not apply to healthcare? i dont think it takes much common sense to see why everyone having healthcare should be considered a right as a citizen of the richest country in the world...

the 'not having a choice of which care id receive' argument is nonsense, because the same thing applies to school...everyone should be covered, but there will always be people who will feel that they deserve better than the minimum...these people could then purchase private healthcare, kinda like having your kids go to private rather than public school...even the system i just described is not perfect, but far better than the system that we have in place now...

people complain about being taxed too much, but honestly theres not much of a difference between the average percentage of income tax in the united states and in countries that have socialized medicine...look it up, i dare you...in some cases, people in other countries actually pay less than we do, and they get more...maybe people wouldnt be so opposed to taxation if our government would actually show citizens what it is they are paying for...the reason people hate higher taxes is often because they dont think that they will be seeing the benefits of doing so...wed rather spend our tax money on war than on providing medicine for the lower class

Okay, I want you to buy me a house, I would also like you to buy my food, maybe you could throw in a BMW while your at it. Oh by the way my kids need some clothes too.

Now that your takin care of me, I think I'm gonna quit my job monday.

[britty 1]

As has been said over and over, it is infinitely preferable to have the opportunity to be on a waiting list for non urgent surgery than to feel that your non urgent surgery is so expensive you can't even go to the Dr to find out what the waiting list might be.

I have no idea what part of the UK you lived in, but you are painting a very bleak picture of what is in fact a very successful UHC system. I challenge you to find one 70 year old on any waiting list in the UK who would willingly exchange their current care for a system where there would be every chance that instead of waiting 2 years, (which is by no means universal across the UK, if it is true at all!) they wouldn't even get to see a Dr.

I lived in the part of the UK where a NHS doctor told my father that he was going to go blind and should come to terms with it, when in fact my father had a cataract. That is also the same part of the UK that incorrectly diagnosed a number of women with cancer, only to tell them some time later that in fact they didn't have cancer - admin error unfortunately. Also the same part of the UK where an elderly women died on a hospital bed left in a corridor due to hospital overcrowding, only to be discovered the following day. Who on earth would want that type of care? Why would it be preferable to be on a waiting list where the medical staff are so overworked they make mistakes in your diagnosis, or only can spare 14.7 seconds to understand your complaint as there are another 450 people in the waiting room. And what if you are admitted to hospital for non urgent surgery and find yourself fighting for your life because you have contracted a terrifying disease whilst lying in the hospital ward! My father would gladly tell you that he will no longer visit a NHS doctor or surgery due to lack of care, and mis-diagnosis. That is one 70 year old who would rise to your challenge.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

Okay, I want you to buy me a house, I would also like you to buy my food, maybe you could throw in a BMW while your at it. Oh by the way my kids need some clothes too.

Now that your takin care of me, I think I'm gonna quit my job monday.

oh don't quit marc!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

As has been said over and over, it is infinitely preferable to have the opportunity to be on a waiting list for non urgent surgery than to feel that your non urgent surgery is so expensive you can't even go to the Dr to find out what the waiting list might be.

I have no idea what part of the UK you lived in, but you are painting a very bleak picture of what is in fact a very successful UHC system. I challenge you to find one 70 year old on any waiting list in the UK who would willingly exchange their current care for a system where there would be every chance that instead of waiting 2 years, (which is by no means universal across the UK, if it is true at all!) they wouldn't even get to see a Dr.

I lived in the part of the UK where a NHS doctor told my father that he was going to go blind and should come to terms with it, when in fact my father had a cataract. That is also the same part of the UK that incorrectly diagnosed a number of women with cancer, only to tell them some time later that in fact they didn't have cancer - admin error unfortunately. Also the same part of the UK where an elderly women died on a hospital bed left in a corridor due to hospital overcrowding, only to be discovered the following day. Who on earth would want that type of care? Why would it be preferable to be on a waiting list where the medical staff are so overworked they make mistakes in your diagnosis, or only can spare 14.7 seconds to understand your complaint as there are another 450 people in the waiting room. And what if you are admitted to hospital for non urgent surgery and find yourself fighting for your life because you have contracted a terrifying disease whilst lying in the hospital ward! My father would gladly tell you that he will no longer visit a NHS doctor or surgery due to lack of care, and mis-diagnosis. That is one 70 year old who would rise to your challenge.

Thank God that nobody here in the US is ever mis-diagnosed, waits to see a doctor, has a procedure performed (if it is at all performed), is attended to in ER's within minutes of arriving, etc., etc. I've taken people to ER's and usually spent hours until any doc ever shows up. Nt that they're lazy, they're busting their ases like no other but the volumes the ER's in the US deal with are just ridiculous - not the least because there are so many people that have only the ER to go to. And I suppose the story that ran on the news just the other day where a woman found herself with both her breasts needlessly removed because she was mis-diagnosed with breast cancer was just some propaganda piece. Medicine is performed by people and people make mistakes. Unless you can come up with some stats that this sort of thing actually correlates to whether there's a UHC or not, I think we can play endless #######-for-tat along those lines. You make it sound like the care people receive here is great. It isn't. A large portion of the population here is simply excluded from adequate care. Other than that it's just a hell of a lot more expensive. But not a hell of a lot better. Not from what I have experienced with and without UHC.

[britty 1]

As has been said over and over, it is infinitely preferable to have the opportunity to be on a waiting list for non urgent surgery than to feel that your non urgent surgery is so expensive you can't even go to the Dr to find out what the waiting list might be.

I have no idea what part of the UK you lived in, but you are painting a very bleak picture of what is in fact a very successful UHC system. I challenge you to find one 70 year old on any waiting list in the UK who would willingly exchange their current care for a system where there would be every chance that instead of waiting 2 years, (which is by no means universal across the UK, if it is true at all!) they wouldn't even get to see a Dr.

I lived in the part of the UK where a NHS doctor told my father that he was going to go blind and should come to terms with it, when in fact my father had a cataract. That is also the same part of the UK that incorrectly diagnosed a number of women with cancer, only to tell them some time later that in fact they didn't have cancer - admin error unfortunately. Also the same part of the UK where an elderly women died on a hospital bed left in a corridor due to hospital overcrowding, only to be discovered the following day. Who on earth would want that type of care? Why would it be preferable to be on a waiting list where the medical staff are so overworked they make mistakes in your diagnosis, or only can spare 14.7 seconds to understand your complaint as there are another 450 people in the waiting room. And what if you are admitted to hospital for non urgent surgery and find yourself fighting for your life because you have contracted a terrifying disease whilst lying in the hospital ward! My father would gladly tell you that he will no longer visit a NHS doctor or surgery due to lack of care, and mis-diagnosis. That is one 70 year old who would rise to your challenge.

Thank God that nobody here in the US is ever mis-diagnosed, waits to see a doctor, has a procedure performed (if it is at all performed), is attended to in ER's within minutes of arriving, etc., etc. I've taken people to ER's and usually spent hours until any doc ever shows up. Nt that they're lazy, they're busting their ases like no other but the volumes the ER's in the US deal with are just ridiculous - not the least because there are so many people that have only the ER to go to. And I suppose the story that ran on the news just the other day where a woman found herself with both her breasts needlessly removed because she was mis-diagnosed with breast cancer was just some propaganda piece. Medicine is performed by people and people make mistakes. Unless you can come up with some stats that this sort of thing actually correlates to whether there's a UHC or not, I think we can play endless #######-for-tat along those lines. You make it sound like the care people receive here is great. It isn't. A large portion of the population here is simply excluded from adequate care. Other than that it's just a hell of a lot more expensive. But not a hell of a lot better. Not from what I have experienced with and without UHC.

and with millions in the US cancelling their insurance policies to receive "free" healthcare under a UHC scheme, the portion of the population that are excluded from adequate care will see absolutely no difference at all, just an increase in numbers.