Bush vetoes expansion of kids' health insurance program

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Well done Britty, you left them spewing emotion based blather. If UHC ever becomes reality, I think the very same people here promoting it, will be the biggest whiners. Thanks again Britty for the well articulated posts.

Onward and upward!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Healthcare is not a given right.

I've noticed some people say that but when cornered with an example - a dying man lying on the street who has no money and no health insurance - I have yet to hear anyone who says healthcare isn't a given right advocate letting the man just die in the street. Attending to someone's right to life is a given in most societies so at least on a rudimentary level, healthcare IS a given right.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Healthcare is not a given right.

I've noticed some people say that but when cornered with an example - a dying man lying on the street who has no money and no health insurance - I have yet to hear anyone who says healthcare isn't a given right advocate letting the man just die in the street. Attending to someone's right to life is a given in most societies so at least on a rudimentary level, healthcare IS a given right.

What if the man is left on a gurney in the hallway waiting his frickin turn, and dies? Kinda the same heh. I love it when huge decisions are based on emotional blather.

[Peikko 1,575]

Well done Britty, you left them spewing emotion based blather. If UHC ever becomes reality, I think the very same people here promoting it, will be the biggest whiners. Thanks again Britty for the well articulated posts.

Onward and upward!

Really, I haven't noticed any. As I said, how many countries with universal health care are contemplating replacing it with a US type private insurance based system? That would be...none. Which says, while no one is claiming that there are no problems with universal health care systems, all of these systems do actually effectively and very importantly ECONOMICALLY treat the majority of the whole population.

The US system consistently fails the majority. Onward and downward I think.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Well done Britty, you left them spewing emotion based blather. If UHC ever becomes reality, I think the very same people here promoting it, will be the biggest whiners. Thanks again Britty for the well articulated posts.

Onward and upward!

Really, I haven't noticed any. As I said, how many countries with universal health care are contemplating replacing it with a US type private insurance based system? That would be...none. Which says, while no one is claiming that there are no problems with universal health care systems, all of these systems do actually effectively and very importantly ECONOMICALLY treat the majority of the whole population.

The US system consistently fails the majority. Onward and downward I think.

There are 22 pages of argument. You might want to get looked at for that selective blindness.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Really, I haven't noticed any.

Didn't see any either.

[Peikko 1,575]

There are no instances of emergency/acute patients being left on Gurneys in countries that have universal health care. The problem areas lie in waiting times for non urgent care. It's a well known fact that there is a large percentage of the US population that don't even seek care for non urgent conditions. I am sure that all those people would like to at least be on a waiting list.

I have read the argument, I haven't seen much emotional blather, except perhaps from you when something someone posted seems to get you a little excited.

[no name 1]

There are no instances of emergency/acute patients being left on Gurneys in countries that have universal health care. The problem areas lie in waiting times for non urgent care. It's a well known fact that there is a large percentage of the US population that don't even seek care for non urgent conditions. I am sure that all those people would like to at least be on a waiting list.

I have read the argument, I haven't seen much emotional blather, except perhaps from you when something someone posted seems to get you a little excited.

He does like the exclamtion marks!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Healthcare is not a given right.

I've noticed some people say that but when cornered with an example - a dying man lying on the street who has no money and no health insurance - I have yet to hear anyone who says healthcare isn't a given right advocate letting the man just die in the street. Attending to someone's right to life is a given in most societies so at least on a rudimentary level, healthcare IS a given right.

What if the man is left on a gurney in the hallway waiting his frickin turn, and dies? Kinda the same heh. I love it when huge decisions are based on emotional blather.

The fault lies with the intention - you either believe that ALL human beings have a right to basic medical care or you don't.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[no name 1]

There are 22 pages of argument. You might want to get looked at for that selective blindness.

Argument? Banter perhaps but plenty of non-argument there.

There's posts from you & Gary & recently, 3 from Britty. And a few sob stories to help influence your side.

Only one of you has ever used UHC.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

There are 22 pages of argument. You might want to get looked at for that selective blindness.

So - what is emotion in your point of view? statistics? carefully constructed arguments? Or opinions you don't happen to agree with?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Socialized health care does not work for those it is intended to serve.

That statement would most certainly hold true if you replaced "socialized" with "privatized". I think a nation stuck with the highest cost of healthcare while leaving 15% of the population in the dust and achieving less of a health standard than those comparable nations that enjoy socialized care is living proof that your statement holds no water.

The money needed to fund a socialized system does not exist.

Again, we spend more than any country that has socialized health care and they still beat us in terms of keeping their populations healthy. Not only is the money there, we would stand to save a chunk.

Taxes will be increased to cover these costs and many millions of people will suffer through increased taxes...

Again, there isn't a nation that spends more than we do on healthcare. I'd personally be very happy to shell out $5K or so p.a. in additional taxes instead of pouring $15K into this bottomless barrel that is the bloated and inefficient private health insurance machinery that we currently suffer under.

If some of you think that some in the US are receiving an unsatisfactory level of care currently, a socialized system will decrease that level of care further.

I've personally seen and lived both and I take the socialized system over the private mess we have any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Your entire argument misses the central fact that there isn't a more expensive, more bloated, more red-tape laden and less efficient system out there than the poor excuse for a health care system that we have allowed the profiteers of the status quo and their enablers to shove down our collective throat.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Americans spend $7,100 on health care annually, while Canadians spend $2,900 (and get better results)

The findings were published in the inaugural edition of Open Medicine, a new online medical journal launching Wednesday in the aftermath of a rift last year between some editors and the publisher of the Canadian Medical Association Journal.

"In looking at patients in Canada with a specific diagnosis compared to Americans with the same diagnosis, in Canada patients had at least as good an outcome as their American counterparts – and in many situations, a better health outcome," said one of the 17 authors, Dr. P.J. Devereaux, a cardiologist and clinical epidemiologist at McMaster University in Hamilton.

"And that is important because in the United States, they're currently spending a little over $7,100 per individual on health care annually, whereas in Canada we're spending a little over $2,900 per individual annually," he said in a telephone interview from Brantford, Ont.

The study covered data on patient populations in the United States and Canada from 1955 to 2003. To conduct their meta-analysis, researchers identified almost 5,000 titles and abstracts. Of these, 498 appeared potentially eligible on initial review. Eventually, 38 studies were deemed to be eligible.

The researchers "wanted decisions made based on evidence, and not based on beliefs and ideologies," Devereaux added.

Few uninsured patients in the U.S., who probably suffer the worst quality care, were included in the studies examined.

Some explanations for the results include the fact that American health care has administrative inefficiencies that public funding – without multiple competing insurance companies – eliminates. And because drug prices are controlled, Canada saves on prescription drug costs.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/204163

Edited October 5, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

There are no instances of emergency/acute patients being left on Gurneys in countries that have universal health care. The problem areas lie in waiting times for non urgent care. It's a well known fact that there is a large percentage of the US population that don't even seek care for non urgent conditions. I am sure that all those people would like to at least be on a waiting list.

I have read the argument, I haven't seen much emotional blather, except perhaps from you when something someone posted seems to get you a little excited.

You should talk to Carol about people dieing on gurneys, her mother did die from public care in Sao paulo! she was left in a hallway till the doctor could see her,she was told she had a infection and given anti biotics and was told to go home. She got home and was in the bathroom when she came out she collapsed on her mother and died. They found out later she was bleeding internally.

[Caladan 19]

That's a sad story, Marc, but it's not a story that has to do with public care. Unless you think in the U.S. she would have never sat in a waiting room or have been misdiagnosed.