Bush vetoes expansion of kids' health insurance program

[Sinergy 3]

And as we argue about it and health care continues to be too expensive my friends child is a day closer to dieing, sounds fair to me

hes on a waiting list for a kidney, but guess what, the kids with the insurance get the kidneys first. how fair is that???

gary dont worry ill keep you update and you will be the first to know if he dies. im sure your passion for "living hard earning good" will still stay the same, but atleast ill give a rats ####### about ppl who are not as fortunate as you are.

im sorry to be bitter, but you hit me in a sore spot.

Thats a low blow. Just because I don't want the federal government taking over the national health care you lay that on me. Ok, in your eyes I am a heartless monster. So be it.

I'm afraid to admit this is where Rheinhard and I diverge in this thread (couldn't believe we agreed thus far lol) because I don't actually think this is a low blow. All Ionescu has done is "personalise" just one instance of the 47 million who have no health insurance at the moment. to argue that this situation is just fine because the govt isn't capable of administering it and I'm fine I can afford coverage for my family with a total disregard for others not in that comfort zone.

Even basic health insurance plans aren't worth the paper they are written on (by the time time co-pays, deductibles and exclusions and limits are taken into account) so I wonder what the true state of poor health coverage is among the middle lower income families of the US is. And to say that American Health service is the best in the world is a total joke when evidenced against the facts. One of the plusses of the VJ community is that the "America is best" attitude is usually missing due to the fact that we are all in multi cultural setups and have therfore seen beyond these shores I didn't expect that attitude here. (and before I get flamed I haven't a clue where is best I have far from experienced all the cultures of the globe so wouldn't presume to guess)

If I addressed all the responses to my post then I would be typing all day, so I will address them here. Firstly, I have travelled extensively and have witnessed first hand some of the health care regimes across the globe. There are many parts of the world that I would not want to fall sick in. I also do not understand why stating "America is best" in terms of healthcare is an attitude that is not expected to be found in the US??! I am not American but yes I believe that America has the best healthcare system in the world due to its many research facilities, teaching hospitals, medial entrepreneurs, and robust, competetive environment. In socialized medicine there is no competition or no incentive. There is only rationing, which impacts the people who need healthcare the most as there is no alternative to the poorly run, inefficient, government bureaucracy. Its a myth that 47 million Americans do not have health care. There are state and federal programs that cover those unable to afford private healthcare, and as I have stated before, no one walking into an emergency room is refused treatment. Recently, in the Republic of Ireland, breast examinations were stopped due to the rationing effect of government run health care. In the US, even tiny hospitals have MRI machines. There is no waiting list for heart bypass and other critical surgeries. Cancer research and treatment in the US draws people from all over the world. In the socialized health care countries, people wait for critical surgeries, and wait even longer for things like hip and knee replacements, or other surgeries the governments call "non critical". At the end of the day someone has to pay for health care. Yes it is expensive in the US but that is becuase you are buying quality treatment. Being a UK citizen, I can testify to the shocking state of the National Health service there and all its many problems. It simply does not work so why should any similar system in the US be a roaring success? I was diagnosed with cancer last year and within 2 days I had that cancer removed and am now fine. My insurance plan was worth the paper it was written on as my personal costs haven't even reached $100.

sorry to burst your bubble, but our health care system is FAR from being the best. as your not an american, wait til you been here longer and have to actually use it.

As stated in my post (you may have glossed over it), I HAVE used the health care system. I was treated within 2 days by a surgeon who is deemed to be the top surgeon in the area within which I reside, and who has since seen me on three further occasions, and to whom I am forever grateful as the scar on my face is barely visible. My health care insurance provided me with the best care, and the best surgeon.

thats what i wanted to hear, now imagine not having insurance, bc well you know some americans DONT and imagine waiting WEEKS to get half decent care. our system sucks, there are other countries who give equal care, insured or NOT. and its GOOD care.

[britty 1]

And as we argue about it and health care continues to be too expensive my friends child is a day closer to dieing, sounds fair to me

hes on a waiting list for a kidney, but guess what, the kids with the insurance get the kidneys first. how fair is that???

gary dont worry ill keep you update and you will be the first to know if he dies. im sure your passion for "living hard earning good" will still stay the same, but atleast ill give a rats ####### about ppl who are not as fortunate as you are.

im sorry to be bitter, but you hit me in a sore spot.

Thats a low blow. Just because I don't want the federal government taking over the national health care you lay that on me. Ok, in your eyes I am a heartless monster. So be it.

I'm afraid to admit this is where Rheinhard and I diverge in this thread (couldn't believe we agreed thus far lol) because I don't actually think this is a low blow. All Ionescu has done is "personalise" just one instance of the 47 million who have no health insurance at the moment. to argue that this situation is just fine because the govt isn't capable of administering it and I'm fine I can afford coverage for my family with a total disregard for others not in that comfort zone.

Even basic health insurance plans aren't worth the paper they are written on (by the time time co-pays, deductibles and exclusions and limits are taken into account) so I wonder what the true state of poor health coverage is among the middle lower income families of the US is. And to say that American Health service is the best in the world is a total joke when evidenced against the facts. One of the plusses of the VJ community is that the "America is best" attitude is usually missing due to the fact that we are all in multi cultural setups and have therfore seen beyond these shores I didn't expect that attitude here. (and before I get flamed I haven't a clue where is best I have far from experienced all the cultures of the globe so wouldn't presume to guess)

If I addressed all the responses to my post then I would be typing all day, so I will address them here. Firstly, I have travelled extensively and have witnessed first hand some of the health care regimes across the globe. There are many parts of the world that I would not want to fall sick in. I also do not understand why stating "America is best" in terms of healthcare is an attitude that is not expected to be found in the US??! I am not American but yes I believe that America has the best healthcare system in the world due to its many research facilities, teaching hospitals, medial entrepreneurs, and robust, competetive environment. In socialized medicine there is no competition or no incentive. There is only rationing, which impacts the people who need healthcare the most as there is no alternative to the poorly run, inefficient, government bureaucracy. Its a myth that 47 million Americans do not have health care. There are state and federal programs that cover those unable to afford private healthcare, and as I have stated before, no one walking into an emergency room is refused treatment. Recently, in the Republic of Ireland, breast examinations were stopped due to the rationing effect of government run health care. In the US, even tiny hospitals have MRI machines. There is no waiting list for heart bypass and other critical surgeries. Cancer research and treatment in the US draws people from all over the world. In the socialized health care countries, people wait for critical surgeries, and wait even longer for things like hip and knee replacements, or other surgeries the governments call "non critical". At the end of the day someone has to pay for health care. Yes it is expensive in the US but that is becuase you are buying quality treatment. Being a UK citizen, I can testify to the shocking state of the National Health service there and all its many problems. It simply does not work so why should any similar system in the US be a roaring success? I was diagnosed with cancer last year and within 2 days I had that cancer removed and am now fine. My insurance plan was worth the paper it was written on as my personal costs haven't even reached $100.

sorry to burst your bubble, but our health care system is FAR from being the best. as your not an american, wait til you been here longer and have to actually use it.

As stated in my post (you may have glossed over it), I HAVE used the health care system. I was treated within 2 days by a surgeon who is deemed to be the top surgeon in the area within which I reside, and who has since seen me on three further occasions, and to whom I am forever grateful as the scar on my face is barely visible. My health care insurance provided me with the best care, and the best surgeon.

thats what i wanted to hear, now imagine not having insurance, bc well you know some americans DONT and imagine waiting WEEKS to get half decent care. our system sucks, there are other countries who give equal care, insured or NOT. and its GOOD care.

Healthcare is not a given right. Emergency care is always available in the US to those who need it. I have used socialized health care in the UK on a few occasions. The treatment I received was appalling and the wait time was ridiculous. I chose a private health care plan in the UK as the socialized system was less than useless. It simply does not work. It will not work in a country the size of the US, and the Americans who don't currently have insurance will find themselves waiting even longer for care. What countries in particular have a socialized health care sytem that provides identical care to that of its private system?

[Sinergy 3]

And as we argue about it and health care continues to be too expensive my friends child is a day closer to dieing, sounds fair to me

hes on a waiting list for a kidney, but guess what, the kids with the insurance get the kidneys first. how fair is that???

gary dont worry ill keep you update and you will be the first to know if he dies. im sure your passion for "living hard earning good" will still stay the same, but atleast ill give a rats ####### about ppl who are not as fortunate as you are.

im sorry to be bitter, but you hit me in a sore spot.

Thats a low blow. Just because I don't want the federal government taking over the national health care you lay that on me. Ok, in your eyes I am a heartless monster. So be it.

I'm afraid to admit this is where Rheinhard and I diverge in this thread (couldn't believe we agreed thus far lol) because I don't actually think this is a low blow. All Ionescu has done is "personalise" just one instance of the 47 million who have no health insurance at the moment. to argue that this situation is just fine because the govt isn't capable of administering it and I'm fine I can afford coverage for my family with a total disregard for others not in that comfort zone.

Even basic health insurance plans aren't worth the paper they are written on (by the time time co-pays, deductibles and exclusions and limits are taken into account) so I wonder what the true state of poor health coverage is among the middle lower income families of the US is. And to say that American Health service is the best in the world is a total joke when evidenced against the facts. One of the plusses of the VJ community is that the "America is best" attitude is usually missing due to the fact that we are all in multi cultural setups and have therfore seen beyond these shores I didn't expect that attitude here. (and before I get flamed I haven't a clue where is best I have far from experienced all the cultures of the globe so wouldn't presume to guess)

If I addressed all the responses to my post then I would be typing all day, so I will address them here. Firstly, I have travelled extensively and have witnessed first hand some of the health care regimes across the globe. There are many parts of the world that I would not want to fall sick in. I also do not understand why stating "America is best" in terms of healthcare is an attitude that is not expected to be found in the US??! I am not American but yes I believe that America has the best healthcare system in the world due to its many research facilities, teaching hospitals, medial entrepreneurs, and robust, competetive environment. In socialized medicine there is no competition or no incentive. There is only rationing, which impacts the people who need healthcare the most as there is no alternative to the poorly run, inefficient, government bureaucracy. Its a myth that 47 million Americans do not have health care. There are state and federal programs that cover those unable to afford private healthcare, and as I have stated before, no one walking into an emergency room is refused treatment. Recently, in the Republic of Ireland, breast examinations were stopped due to the rationing effect of government run health care. In the US, even tiny hospitals have MRI machines. There is no waiting list for heart bypass and other critical surgeries. Cancer research and treatment in the US draws people from all over the world. In the socialized health care countries, people wait for critical surgeries, and wait even longer for things like hip and knee replacements, or other surgeries the governments call "non critical". At the end of the day someone has to pay for health care. Yes it is expensive in the US but that is becuase you are buying quality treatment. Being a UK citizen, I can testify to the shocking state of the National Health service there and all its many problems. It simply does not work so why should any similar system in the US be a roaring success? I was diagnosed with cancer last year and within 2 days I had that cancer removed and am now fine. My insurance plan was worth the paper it was written on as my personal costs haven't even reached $100.

sorry to burst your bubble, but our health care system is FAR from being the best. as your not an american, wait til you been here longer and have to actually use it.

As stated in my post (you may have glossed over it), I HAVE used the health care system. I was treated within 2 days by a surgeon who is deemed to be the top surgeon in the area within which I reside, and who has since seen me on three further occasions, and to whom I am forever grateful as the scar on my face is barely visible. My health care insurance provided me with the best care, and the best surgeon.

thats what i wanted to hear, now imagine not having insurance, bc well you know some americans DONT and imagine waiting WEEKS to get half decent care. our system sucks, there are other countries who give equal care, insured or NOT. and its GOOD care.

Healthcare is not a given right. Emergency care is always available in the US to those who need it. I have used socialized health care in the UK on a few occasions. The treatment I received was appalling and the wait time was ridiculous. I chose a private health care plan in the UK as the socialized system was less than useless. It simply does not work. It will not work in a country the size of the US, and the Americans who don't currently have insurance will find themselves waiting even longer for care. What countries in particular have a socialized health care sytem that provides identical care to that of its private system?

romania

[no name 1]

ed in my post (you may have glossed over it), I HAVE used the health care system. I was treated within 2 days by a surgeon who is deemed to be the top surgeon in the area within which I reside, and who has since seen me on three further occasions, and to whom I am forever grateful as the scar on my face is barely visible. My health care insurance provided me with the best care, and the best surgeon.

Use one when you are UNinsured & tell us your story then.

Healthcare is not a given right. Emergency care is always available in the US to those who need it. I have used socialized health care in the UK on a few occasions. The treatment I received was appalling and the wait time was ridiculous. I chose a private health care plan in the UK as the socialized system was less than useless. It simply does not work. It will not work in a country the size of the US, and the Americans who don't currently have insurance will find themselves waiting even longer for care. What countries in particular have a socialized health care sytem that provides identical care to that of its private system?

well, it's great that you are able to afford private in the UK. Bravo.

PLenty use the NHS with no ill effects.

This thread is about care for the UNINSURED not ones who are lucky enough to have insurance & private care.

Edited October 5, 2007 by devilette

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Being covered is all that matters or at least saying those words makes everything better,right?

[britty 1]

This is my last thread on the matter. Socialized health care does not work for those it is intended to serve. The money needed to fund a socialized system does not exist. Taxes will be increased to cover these costs and many millions of people will suffer through increased taxes and a health care system that is run by the government to the same standard as that of the DMV for example (completely unsatisfactory in my opinion). Again, health care is not a given right. Why do people think it is? Health care is available to all in the US. If some of you think that some in the US are receiving an unsatisfactory level of care currently, a socialized system will decrease that level of care further. What incentive is there for those that can afford it, to continue paying health care insurance when they can take advantage of a "free" health care system, and increase wait times and over-worked medical staff. I won't be adding to the millions of people requiring medical care without insurance, so I won't be increasing someone else's wait for an operation or treatment. There are many millions like me who are able to pay insurance and therefore do. If we all supported a socialized system and took advantage of it, no one would benefit.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Do you think education is a given right or something that is only or those who can afford it?

[Peikko 1,575]

No, health care is not a 'given right' but then nothing is a 'given right' in those terms. However, societies exist because, in general, people wish to subscribe to a system where care/education/government/policing are provided for everyone in order for people to be able to co exist. Human beings have always created societies, and most societies have made provision to care for those who are least able to care for themselves. The crux of this argument is, does the US society wish to care for the health of all, or just those who can afford health insurance and can pay should that health insurance fail them? If it wishes to provide health care for all, what is the best care that can be provided, how should it be financed and who should be the provider.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that only those who can afford health care should be given it, or maybe they are? I'd like to know that one I guess.

Regardless, there is no perfect system. If you ask anyone who lives with a Universal Health care system if they are happy with it, I am sure you will get a diversity of responses, rather dependent on personal experience with people being more or less happy, but I am sure most people wishing to make improvements. However, should you go on to ask them would they wish the universal health service to be replaced with private health insurance on the US model, very few would be jumping up to sign up for that. What they want, is for their system to be continually improved upon not junked. They aren't failing most people, or even a large minority of people. The US health care system does fail the vast majority.

If that's your definition of success, then, way to go.

[no name 1]

No, health care is not a 'given right' but then nothing is a 'given right' in those terms. However, societies exist because, in general, people wish to subscribe to a system where care/education/government/policing are provided for everyone in order for people to be able to co exist. Human beings have always created societies, and most societies have made provision to care for those who are least able to care for themselves. The crux of this argument is, does the US society wish to care for the health of all, or just those who can afford health insurance and can pay should that health insurance fail them? If it wishes to provide health care for all, what is the best care that can be provided, how should it be financed and who should be the provider.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that only those who can afford health care should be given it, or maybe they are? I'd like to know that one I guess.

Regardless, there is no perfect system. If you ask anyone who lives with a Universal Health care system if they are happy with it, I am sure you will get a diversity of responses, rather dependent on personal experience with people being more or less happy, but I am sure most people wishing to make improvements. However, should you go on to ask them would they wish the universal health service to be replaced with private health insurance on the US model, very few would be jumping up to sign up for that. What they want, is for their system to be continually improved upon not junked. They aren't failing most people, or even a large minority of people. The US health care system does fail the vast majority.

If that's your definition of success, then, way to go.

This is my last thread on the matter. Socialized health care does not work for those it is intended to serve. The money needed to fund a socialized system does not exist. Taxes will be increased to cover these costs and many millions of people will suffer through increased taxes and a health care system that is run by the government to the same standard as that of the DMV for example (completely unsatisfactory in my opinion). Again, health care is not a given right. Why do people think it is? Health care is available to all in the US. If some of you think that some in the US are receiving an unsatisfactory level of care currently, a socialized system will decrease that level of care further. What incentive is there for those that can afford it, to continue paying health care insurance when they can take advantage of a "free" health care system, and increase wait times and over-worked medical staff. I won't be adding to the millions of people requiring medical care without insurance, so I won't be increasing someone else's wait for an operation or treatment. There are many millions like me who are able to pay insurance and therefore do. If we all supported a socialized system and took advantage of it, no one would benefit.

Must be nice inside your priviledged/sheltered box.

[Ivanovo 0]

And as we argue about it and health care continues to be too expensive my friends child is a day closer to dieing, sounds fair to me

hes on a waiting list for a kidney, but guess what, the kids with the insurance get the kidneys first. how fair is that???

gary dont worry ill keep you update and you will be the first to know if he dies. im sure your passion for "living hard earning good" will still stay the same, but atleast ill give a rats ####### about ppl who are not as fortunate as you are.

im sorry to be bitter, but you hit me in a sore spot.

Thats a low blow. Just because I don't want the federal government taking over the national health care you lay that on me. Ok, in your eyes I am a heartless monster. So be it.

I'm afraid to admit this is where Rheinhard and I diverge in this thread (couldn't believe we agreed thus far lol) because I don't actually think this is a low blow. All Ionescu has done is "personalise" just one instance of the 47 million who have no health insurance at the moment. to argue that this situation is just fine because the govt isn't capable of administering it and I'm fine I can afford coverage for my family with a total disregard for others not in that comfort zone.

Even basic health insurance plans aren't worth the paper they are written on (by the time time co-pays, deductibles and exclusions and limits are taken into account) so I wonder what the true state of poor health coverage is among the middle lower income families of the US is. And to say that American Health service is the best in the world is a total joke when evidenced against the facts. One of the plusses of the VJ community is that the "America is best" attitude is usually missing due to the fact that we are all in multi cultural setups and have therfore seen beyond these shores I didn't expect that attitude here. (and before I get flamed I haven't a clue where is best I have far from experienced all the cultures of the globe so wouldn't presume to guess)

If I addressed all the responses to my post then I would be typing all day, so I will address them here. Firstly, I have travelled extensively and have witnessed first hand some of the health care regimes across the globe. There are many parts of the world that I would not want to fall sick in. I also do not understand why stating "America is best" in terms of healthcare is an attitude that is not expected to be found in the US??! I am not American but yes I believe that America has the best healthcare system in the world due to its many research facilities, teaching hospitals, medial entrepreneurs, and robust, competetive environment. In socialized medicine there is no competition or no incentive. There is only rationing, which impacts the people who need healthcare the most as there is no alternative to the poorly run, inefficient, government bureaucracy. Its a myth that 47 million Americans do not have health care. There are state and federal programs that cover those unable to afford private healthcare, and as I have stated before, no one walking into an emergency room is refused treatment. Recently, in the Republic of Ireland, breast examinations were stopped due to the rationing effect of government run health care. In the US, even tiny hospitals have MRI machines. There is no waiting list for heart bypass and other critical surgeries. Cancer research and treatment in the US draws people from all over the world. In the socialized health care countries, people wait for critical surgeries, and wait even longer for things like hip and knee replacements, or other surgeries the governments call "non critical". At the end of the day someone has to pay for health care. Yes it is expensive in the US but that is becuase you are buying quality treatment. Being a UK citizen, I can testify to the shocking state of the National Health service there and all its many problems. It simply does not work so why should any similar system in the US be a roaring success? I was diagnosed with cancer last year and within 2 days I had that cancer removed and am now fine. My insurance plan was worth the paper it was written on as my personal costs haven't even reached $100.

sorry to burst your bubble, but our health care system is FAR from being the best. as your not an american, wait til you been here longer and have to actually use it.

As stated in my post (you may have glossed over it), I HAVE used the health care system. I was treated within 2 days by a surgeon who is deemed to be the top surgeon in the area within which I reside, and who has since seen me on three further occasions, and to whom I am forever grateful as the scar on my face is barely visible. My health care insurance provided me with the best care, and the best surgeon.

thats what i wanted to hear, now imagine not having insurance, bc well you know some americans DONT and imagine waiting WEEKS to get half decent care. our system sucks, there are other countries who give equal care, insured or NOT. and its GOOD care.

Healthcare is not a given right. Emergency care is always available in the US to those who need it. I have used socialized health care in the UK on a few occasions. The treatment I received was appalling and the wait time was ridiculous. I chose a private health care plan in the UK as the socialized system was less than useless. It simply does not work. It will not work in a country the size of the US, and the Americans who don't currently have insurance will find themselves waiting even longer for care. What countries in particular have a socialized health care sytem that provides identical care to that of its private system?

romania

Forgive me to jump in here. I lived in Romania for four years helping rebuild the infrastructure of their crippled ex communist nation.

Romania does NOT have a government healthcare system equal to that of a private ( Romanian or non-Romaninan) system

Their socialized system is badly managed, corrupt and does not treat long term or chronic illnesses well. Hospitalization is non existent in their social program and the hospitals that do exist are out dated.....beautiful country with alot of problems with their system of healthcare, not to mention the unemployment and orphanages.

Romania has not yet produced a fully articulated, written health policy, although the Governance Programme for 2000-2004 included health amongst its objectives. Health system reform has focused mainly on primary care, with little attention paid to hospital care. The government has tried to improve population access to services by offering free access for the poor rural population, young children and students. There is a mandatory social health insurance system with co-payments required for drugs.

http://www.eldis.org/go/display/?id=11995&type=Document

[Caladan 19]

I'm sort of amused by the claim that 'if you need help, just go to the emergency room!!', which I am certain will be followed by bitching about hospital expenses (and how no one checks to see if you can pay at the emergency room) due to people who use the emergency room as a primary care physician.

[no name 1]

I'm sort of amused by the claim that 'if you need help, just go to the emergency room!!', which I am certain will be followed by bitching about hospital expenses (and how no one checks to see if you can pay at the emergency room) due to people who use the emergency room as a primary care physician.

I find it amusing when someone says, 'Emergency care is always available in the US to those who need it.' Sure, at a very big price.

And emergency care in any country is available. DUH.

Edited October 5, 2007 by devilette

[Marilyn. 340]

I'm sort of amused by the claim that 'if you need help, just go to the emergency room!!', which I am certain will be followed by bitching about hospital expenses (and how no one checks to see if you can pay at the emergency room) due to people who use the emergency room as a primary care physician.

also the incredibly long time you have to wait in the emergency room

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

And the fact that people are using the emergency room as a primary care provider is the reason why healthcare costs is so expensive for everyone else -since 2000 average premiums have gone up 60% and overall spending increased 40%

[almaty 19]

i worked the ER for 7 years..allot of people with no insurance go there cause it is the only way to get medical attention