Immigration rules on finances

[payxibka 10,045]

RJ,

This was good but if I read correctly there are no established guidelines (125% of income, 100% of income, 5:1 asset to income coverage ratio, 3:1 asset to income coverage ratio) so it is somewhat of a free-for-all totally at the discretion of the CO. This does not surprise me one bit.....

[rebeccajo 14]

RJ,

This was good but if I read correctly there are no established guidelines (125% of income, 100% of income, 5:1 asset to income coverage ratio, 3:1 asset to income coverage ratio) so it is somewhat of a free-for-all totally at the discretion of the CO. This does not surprise me one bit.....

Well, it tells you what doesn't apply.

[pushbrk 12,898]

RJ,

This was good but if I read correctly there are no established guidelines (125% of income, 100% of income, 5:1 asset to income coverage ratio, 3:1 asset to income coverage ratio) so it is somewhat of a free-for-all totally at the discretion of the CO. This does not surprise me one bit.....

Well, it tells you what doesn't apply.

It tells you what isn't required to apply, by law. The fact is that in nearly all cases, IV units at US Consulates treat the I-134 pretty much the same as an I-864 in K visa cases.

The notable exception I see is that Manila's IV unit takes the "close ties" to any joint sponsor, far more seriously than most of not all the rest of the Consulates' IV unit.

[payxibka 10,045]

Based on what I have seen so far (particullarly as it relates to the I-134), I would be hard pressed to tell anyone that the asset ratio is x:1 and based on this, your shortfall of xx is covered by your xxx of assets, you have nothing to worry about and you are good to go.

[pushbrk 12,898]

Based on what I have seen so far (particullarly as it relates to the I-134), I would be hard pressed to tell anyone that the asset ratio is x:1 and based on this, your shortfall of xx is covered by your xxx of assets, you have nothing to worry about and you are good to go.

That's why I say to K3 folks that the minimum requirements are met, not that they are good to go or it is "enough". The ultimately subjective decision is in the hands of a human. It's a big mistake to think the visa process is going to be a success because you filed all the forms correctly and met all the stated qualifications.

Enough to meet the requirements is not necessarily enough to get a visa.

However, this OP is strugling to "qualify". It appears he now "qualifies". The decision is yet to be made whether meeting the qualifications will be enough for a visa.

Edited October 3, 2007 by pushbrk

[rebeccajo 14]

RJ,

This was good but if I read correctly there are no established guidelines (125% of income, 100% of income, 5:1 asset to income coverage ratio, 3:1 asset to income coverage ratio) so it is somewhat of a free-for-all totally at the discretion of the CO. This does not surprise me one bit.....

Well, it tells you what doesn't apply.

It tells you what isn't required to apply, by law. The fact is that in nearly all cases, IV units at US Consulates treat the I-134 pretty much the same as an I-864 in K visa cases.

The notable exception I see is that Manila's IV unit takes the "close ties" to any joint sponsor, far more seriously than most of not all the rest of the Consulates' IV unit.

Even when the law clearly states and the FAM clearly dictates that the standards for both documents are not the same?

[pushbrk 12,898]

RJ,

This was good but if I read correctly there are no established guidelines (125% of income, 100% of income, 5:1 asset to income coverage ratio, 3:1 asset to income coverage ratio) so it is somewhat of a free-for-all totally at the discretion of the CO. This does not surprise me one bit.....

Well, it tells you what doesn't apply.

It tells you what isn't required to apply, by law. The fact is that in nearly all cases, IV units at US Consulates treat the I-134 pretty much the same as an I-864 in K visa cases.

The notable exception I see is that Manila's IV unit takes the "close ties" to any joint sponsor, far more seriously than most of not all the rest of the Consulates' IV unit.

Even when the law clearly states and the FAM clearly dictates that the standards for both documents are not the same?

Yes. What alternate set of standards did you see suggested as a baseline? Answer: None. The document points to other considerations but no standards.

[robertd 0]

RJ,

This was good but if I read correctly there are no established guidelines (125% of income, 100% of income, 5:1 asset to income coverage ratio, 3:1 asset to income coverage ratio) so it is somewhat of a free-for-all totally at the discretion of the CO. This does not surprise me one bit.....

Well, it tells you what doesn't apply.

It tells you what isn't required to apply, by law. The fact is that in nearly all cases, IV units at US Consulates treat the I-134 pretty much the same as an I-864 in K visa cases.

The notable exception I see is that Manila's IV unit takes the "close ties" to any joint sponsor, far more seriously than most of not all the rest of the Consulates' IV unit.

This is not true.A friend will do as nicely as a family member.And what goes as being acceptable in Dublin or London will be accepted in Manila.I've heard this kind of prejudice and fear mongering and ill-motivation before.Take it from us using the Manila embassy and call the USCIS.We are in your corner.

[pushbrk 12,898]

RJ,

This was good but if I read correctly there are no established guidelines (125% of income, 100% of income, 5:1 asset to income coverage ratio, 3:1 asset to income coverage ratio) so it is somewhat of a free-for-all totally at the discretion of the CO. This does not surprise me one bit.....

Well, it tells you what doesn't apply.

It tells you what isn't required to apply, by law. The fact is that in nearly all cases, IV units at US Consulates treat the I-134 pretty much the same as an I-864 in K visa cases.

The notable exception I see is that Manila's IV unit takes the "close ties" to any joint sponsor, far more seriously than most of not all the rest of the Consulates' IV unit.

This is not true.A friend will do as nicely as a family member.And what goes as being acceptable in Dublin or London will be accepted in Manila.I've heard this kind of prejudice and fear mongering and ill-motivation before.Take it from us using the Manila embassy and call the USCIS.We are in your corner.

USCIS is not involved in I-134 acceptance. Nobody is fear mongering.

Yes, a "friend" can have close enough ties to be a joint sponsor.

Horse's mouth quoted below. First the relevant excerpt.

(1) The sponsor's motives in submitting the affidavit;

(2) The sponsor's relationship to the applicant, (e.g., relative by blood

or marriage, former employer or employee, schoolmates, or

business associates);

(3) The length of time the sponsor and applicant have known each

other;

========================================

9 FAM 40.41 N4.6-3 Use of Form I-134, Affidavit of

Support Under INA 213A

(CT:VISA-823; 07-14-2006)

a. With the required use of Form I-864, Affidavit of Support Under Section

213A of the Act, under INA 212(a)(4)© and INA 213A for so many

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 9 - Visas

9 FAM 40.41 Notes Page 14 of 35

classes of immigrants, the use of Form I-134, Affidavit of Support, has

been reduced considerably. Nevertheless, there still are circumstances

when Form I-134 will be beneficial. This affidavit, submitted by the

applicant at your request, is not legally binding on the sponsor and should

not be accorded the same weight as Form I-864. Form I-134 should be

given consideration as one form of evidence, however, in conjunction with

the other forms of evidence mentioned below.

b. If any of the following applicants need an Affidavit of Support to meet the

public charge requirement, they must use Form I-134, as they are not

authorized to use Form I-864:

(1) The self-petitioning spouse of a deceased U.S. citizen, and any

children there from (see INA 204(a)(1)(A)(ii));

(2) The self-petitioning spouse of a U.S. citizen, and any children there

from, who has been battered by or subjected to extreme cruelty

perpetrated by the spouse (see INA 204(a)(1)(A)(iii) and (iv));

(3) Returning resident aliens;

(4) Diversity visa applicants; and

(5) Fiancé(e)s.

c. The simple submission of Form I-134, Affidavit of Support, however, is

not sufficient to establish that the beneficiary is not likely to become a

public charge. Although the income requirements of Form I-864, Affidavit

of Support Under Section 213A of the Act, do not apply in such cases

(i.e., the 125 percent minimum income, the need for three years income

tax returns), you must make a thorough evaluation of other factors, such

as:

(1) The sponsor's motives in submitting the affidavit;

(2) The sponsor's relationship to the applicant, (e.g., relative by blood

or marriage, former employer or employee, schoolmates, or

business associates);

(3) The length of time the sponsor and applicant have known each

other;

(4) The sponsor's financial resources; and

(5) Other responsibilities of the sponsor.

NOTE: When there are compelling or forceful ties between the applicant

and the sponsor, such as a close family relationship or friendship of long

standing, you may favorably consider the affidavit. On the other hand, an

affidavit submitted by a casual friend or distant relative who has little or no

personal knowledge of the applicant has more limited value. If the sponsor

is not a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident (LPR), the likelihood of the

sponsor's support of an immigrant visa applicant until the applicant can

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 9 - Visas

9 FAM 40.41 Notes Page 15 of 35

become self-supporting is a particularly important consideration.

d. The degree of corroborative detail necessary to support the affidavit will

vary depending upon the circumstances. For example, for a relatively

short-term visitor, little, if any, would be required. In immigrant cases,

however, the sponsor's statement should include:

(1) Information regarding income and resources;

(2) Financial obligations for the support of immediate family members

and other dependents;

(3) Other obligations and expenses; and

(4) Plans and arrangements made for the applicant's support in the

absence of a legal obligation toward the applicant.

e. To substantiate the information regarding income and resources, the

sponsor should attach to the affidavit:

(1) A statement from an employer showing the sponsor's salary and

the length and permanency of employment;

(2) A copy of the most recent Federal income tax return as of the date

Form I-864 was signed;

(3) A statement from an officer of a bank regarding any accounts,

showing the date the account was opened and the present balance;

or

(4) Other evidence adequate to establish the sponsor's financial ability

to carry out the commitment toward the immigrant for what might

be an indefinite period of time.

f. If the sponsor has a well-established business and submits a rating from

a recognized business rating organization, you do not need to insist on a

copy of the sponsor's latest income tax return or other evidence.

[C and J 1]

oops... wrong thread

Edited October 4, 2007 by C and J

[robertd 0]

The notable exception I see is that Manila's IV unit takes the "close ties" to any joint sponsor, far more seriously than most of not all the rest of the Consulates' IV unit.Pushbrk

This is not true.A friend will do as nicely as a family member.And what goes as being acceptable in Dublin or London will be accepted in Manila.I've heard this kind of prejudice and fear mongering and ill-motivation before.Take it from us using the Manila embassy and call the USCIS.We are in your corner.Robertd

USCIS is not involved in I-134 acceptance. Nobody is fear mongering.Pushbrk

Don't rely on self-proclaimed "experts".Call the USCIS Hotline at (202)663-1225 to get the straight facts about the I-134 and it's requirements.They'll be glad to help.Robertd

[pushbrk 12,898]

The notable exception I see is that Manila's IV unit takes the "close ties" to any joint sponsor, far more seriously than most of not all the rest of the Consulates' IV unit.Pushbrk

This is not true.A friend will do as nicely as a family member.And what goes as being acceptable in Dublin or London will be accepted in Manila.I've heard this kind of prejudice and fear mongering and ill-motivation before.Take it from us using the Manila embassy and call the USCIS.We are in your corner.Robertd

USCIS is not involved in I-134 acceptance. Nobody is fear mongering.Pushbrk

Don't rely on self-proclaimed "experts".Call the USCIS Hotline at (202)663-1225 to get the straight facts about the I-134 and it's requirements.They'll be glad to help.Robertd

Calling that number will not reach USCIS. I keep telling you that. That number is the Department of State's visa information line. You reach customer service representatives that can give you hard status information but they are not visa experts. They are not Consular officers or trained adjudicators. They do not know what policies are in place at all or necessarily any IV unit in a Consulate.

I'm happy you got your visa approved with an "alternate" sponsor but you are giving inaccurate information about who knows what and information that contradicts the laws you either are not reading or are failing to understand.

Each case is adjudicated on its own. The law does not require any Consular officer to accept a K visa sponsor other than the petitioner. They can do it but are not required to.

Many procedures in use at high fraud Consular posts are different from other posts. They have developed these policies over time to deal with problems they see regularly. Manila has been both a high volume and high fraud post for as long as any. As such, they have different policies in place. Those policies can and do change.

The one general policy that remains the same but can vary based on the individual Consular officer's experience and judgment is that all cases are to be evaluated based on the totality of circumstances.

[robertd 0]

The notable exception I see is that Manila's IV unit takes the "close ties" to any joint sponsor, far more seriously than most of not all the rest of the Consulates' IV unit.Pushbrk

This is not true.A friend will do as nicely as a family member.And what goes as being acceptable in Dublin or London will be accepted in Manila.I've heard this kind of prejudice and fear mongering and ill-motivation before.Take it from us using the Manila embassy and call the USCIS.We are in your corner.Robertd

USCIS is not involved in I-134 acceptance. Nobody is fear mongering.Pushbrk

Don't rely on self-proclaimed "experts".Call the USCIS Hotline at (202)663-1225 to get the straight facts about the I-134 and it's requirements.They'll be glad to help.Robertd

Calling that number will not reach USCIS. I keep telling you that. That number is the Department of State's visa information line. You reach customer service representatives that can give you hard status information but they are not visa experts. They are not Consular officers or trained adjudicators. They do not know what policies are in place at all or necessarily any IV unit in a Consulate.

I'm happy you got your visa approved with an "alternate" sponsor but you are giving inaccurate information about who knows what and information that contradicts the laws you either are not reading or are failing to understand.

Each case is adjudicated on its own. The law does not require any Consular officer to accept a K visa sponsor other than the petitioner. They can do it but are not required to.

Many procedures in use at high fraud Consular posts are different from other posts. They have developed these policies over time to deal with problems they see regularly. Manila has been both a high volume and high fraud post for as long as any. As such, they have different policies in place. Those policies can and do change.

The one general policy that remains the same but can vary based on the individual Consular officer's experience and judgment is that all cases are to be evaluated based on the totality of circumstances.

What I've seen is that a co-sponsors aren't allowed by Manila for fiance visas but I've also seen exceptions(Pushbrk)

Nothing new here.Nothing true there.I would like to refer everyone to read the entire thread Of "Manila embassy question about joint sponsor" to learn the ever changing slippery advice that discourages instead of helps from the ill-motivated mind of a lurker.Manila is no different than the Dublin or London embassy.He says they don't accept co-sponsors, or "rarely" on K visas;they do almost universally but they don't call it a "co-sponsor" either because the responsibility rests on the alternate sponsor;then he says he only meant K-1 .When confronted with contrary evidence he moves on.They "initially reject" the use of an alternate sponsor.I've never seen or heard of this and my and the experiences of my friends were quite the opposite.He says only a family member will make a suitable alternate sponsor.There is no anecdotal evidence evidence to support that claim which certainly isn't true in Manila which is outside his experience.Then he says they accept the I-864 but not the I-134 because it is less enforceable but no one here has anyone denied on those grounds.As a matter of fact even petitioners on means-tested benefits are routinely approved.Read the pinned post here on the I-134.Call an immigration attorney.Most congressmen are more than willing to help in immigration matters.Call (202)663-1225 in Washington,DC to get some "straight talk" about the affidavit of support.Despite what the member says they will be glad to give you sound advice and the very latest status updates on your case.Listen to people who actually used an alternate sponsor.Listen to people who went through the Manila embassy visa process.Your congressman voted on the law that a consular officer is compelled to follow in Manila as in every other consul..They have some minor discretion but ultimately must base their decision on laws made right here in the USA.Seek some more enlightened factual reassurance and not some chronic pessimism.You have very reason to be hopeful.

[pushbrk 12,898]

He says they don't accept co-sponsors, or "rarely" on K visas;they do almost universally but they don't call it a "co-sponsor" either because the responsibility rests on the alternate sponsor;then he says he only meant K-1 .When confronted with contrary evidence he moves on.They "initially reject" the use of an alternate sponsor.I've never seen or heard of this and my and the experiences of my friends were quite the opposite.He says only a family member will make a suitable alternate sponsor.

These and all your other assertions about what I've said are either not accurate or misinterpreted. I've clarified already. Further, many members have made far more defininte statements on this issue than have I.

I read a lot of different posts indicating issues with sponsors in addition to the petitioner in Manila before I ever posted anything about it. At first, I found it difficult to believe. I wish I could find the post, from a few months ago that finally convinced me there was something to it. As I recall, the applicant was taking overcome information back to the Consulate after an initial denial. The CO had requested multiple things but when submitting the documents, an additional I-134 from an additional sponsor was handed over. The applicant quoted the the officer as saying something to the effect, "We don't normally accept sponsors other than the petitioner on these visas but let me see if the Consul (supervisor ?) will accept one in this case."

If somebody is better at using the search function here and can find that, go for it.

I assure you, I'm interested in helping set appropriate expectations, not fear mongering.

If anybody has any hard information to offer besides, my friend and I were approved with "alternate sponsors" followed by a lot of empty bluster, I'd be interested in hearing it. I'm sure a lot of us would be.

[rebeccajo 14]

I'm moving this to the Philippines forum in hopes for further discussion.