Conservative Christian’s ‘War on Halloween’ fails in court

[mendeleev 68]

Why do some of these same people that think bad to want to ban Halloween decorations don't like the idea of Christmas decorations? (BTW I think it all should be allowed)

quite simple - halloween does not involve christianity

Yeah, I'm confused -- isn't Christianity a religion? Don't State-sponsored celebrations of it come close to sponsoring religion?

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe Christianity isn't a religion.

[KarenCee 3]

Why do some of these same people that think bad to want to ban Halloween decorations don't like the idea of Christmas decorations? (BTW I think it all should be allowed)

quite simple - halloween does not involve christianity

Yeah, I'm confused -- isn't Christianity a religion? Don't State-sponsored celebrations of it come close to sponsoring religion?

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe Christianity isn't a religion.

State sponsored celebrations? Like what for example? Christianity is a religion but I've not seen any state sponsored celebrations for anything religious...if that's what you are referring to.

[Jamie76 0]

People always have to find something to complain about. For the last few years it has been the whole "Merry Christmas-Happy Holidays" thing. Get over it.

[GaryC 7]

Why do some of these same people that think bad to want to ban Halloween decorations don't like the idea of Christmas decorations? (BTW I think it all should be allowed)

quite simple - halloween does not involve christianity

Yeah, I'm confused -- isn't Christianity a religion? Don't State-sponsored celebrations of it come close to sponsoring religion?

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe Christianity isn't a religion.

You need to read the bill of rights. It says that the government will not establish a state religion. I.E. one that you have to belong to. This was a reaction to the Church Of England. It says nothing about restricting religious symbols on government property. The courts have perverted the constitution.

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was mentioned in an eloquent letter written by President John Tyler on July 10, 1843. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to popular and political discussion of the concept, including criticism that it overstates the limits created under the Constitution. However, it originated much earlier, and was implicit in the flight of Roger Williams from religious oppression in Massachusetts to found what became Rhode Island on the principle of state neutrality in matters of faith.

The phrase is never stated in the constitution. The first amendment states that government will not create a national religion however government officials have the right to practice any religious ideas that they want.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Edited September 30, 2007 by GaryC

[Cantankerous 0]

I think the point should be brought up that the issue was over Halloween decorations within a Government building. Halloween is not a US National Holiday. Halloween is a celebration with roots going back to Pagan / Wiccan / Christian beliefs, customs and traditions. Why should Halloween be something that is allowed to be celebrated by decorations within a Government building?

I think government employees should spend less time hanging up decorations and more time processing my Petition...

For everyone else, and even those government employees at home; Happy Halloween!!!

[Reba 2]

Again, I'll say that I know many pagans who DO celebrate Hallowe'en as a religious holiday. It is a major part of their calendar and they do special things on that night. Many will set a table place for departed relatives at dinner, some will leave a candle burning over night as a mark of respect to the dead, others do rituals celebrating the harvest. It varies between person to person and which path they follow.

So, Hallowe'en might not be an officially recognised holiday, but it is still celebrated as one by many Pagans.

Except they're celebrating Samhain as a religious holiday, not Halloween.

Hey, I'm a Celtic Recon, I know what the day is and that it just so happens to fall at the same time as Halloween. I celebrate both separately.

[Mags 112]

Again, I'll say that I know many pagans who DO celebrate Hallowe'en as a religious holiday. It is a major part of their calendar and they do special things on that night. Many will set a table place for departed relatives at dinner, some will leave a candle burning over night as a mark of respect to the dead, others do rituals celebrating the harvest. It varies between person to person and which path they follow.

So, Hallowe'en might not be an officially recognised holiday, but it is still celebrated as one by many Pagans.

Except they're celebrating Samhain as a religious holiday, not Halloween.

Hey, I'm a Celtic Recon, I know what the day is and that it just so happens to fall at the same time as Halloween. I celebrate both separately.

No, many of them DO celebrate Hallowe'en. There are so many different paths in paganism, it is wrong to say that there are no pagans that celebrate Hallowe'en as their "brand" of religious holiday. Many witches will celebrate Hallowe'en rather than Samhain especially since Samhain has been taken over by Wiccans in the last few years. They try to distance themselves from Wicca as much as possible; many of them sick of people assuming that Wicca=witch. Because it doesn't.

Witchcraft in itself isn't a religion, it is a practice, but Hallowe'en becomes a major focal point in the yearly calender for them and it IS celebrated. Just as many Pagans (who follow an actual religion) WILL actually celebrate Hallowe'en as a religious holiday themselves.

Paganism isn't as simple as it seems. There are no neat little boxes to put everyone in and label; there are simply too many different paths.

I mod on a couple of pagan boards, as does my husband (who is a pagan), so we are not novices in this regard. We are fully versed in many Pagan practices, sabbats and "holidays"!

Edited October 1, 2007 by Mags

[pedroh 21]

Dia de muertos is not the same as halloween!! but yeah, the catholics celebrate Nov the 1st.. I miss a good ole' Dia de Muertos like in Mexico

[Scott & Lai 12]

Christmas was okay, except no mention of Santa was allowed because in ages past Santa, who was actually Saint Nicholas, was pagan...a most evil belief.

Santa was pagan?

From Halloween-History.org:

In the 1500's, Martin Luther created the Protestant Church, which had no saints, so no All Hallows Day was allowed.

Actually, there is no such thing as the "Protestant Church." There are protestant churches, meaning they partly define themselves as being in opposition to the Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy, but there is no denomination or organized body called the "Protestant Church."

Also, Luther didn't create a church, at least not intentionally. His purpose was to reform the Roman Church by correcting errors of doctrine and practice, not start a new church. Rome had other things in mind, and rejected Luther's attempts. Those churches in agreement with Luther and his associates eventually were called "Lutheran," but that was a pejorative at first. Luther eventually accepted the term, partly because it had stuck by that time.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Christmas was okay, except no mention of Santa was allowed because in ages past Santa, who was actually Saint Nicholas, was pagan...a most evil belief.

Santa was pagan?

Prior to being "born-again", he followed the Greco-Roman religion.

[Reba 2]

Also, Luther didn't create a church, at least not intentionally.

Neither did Jesus, but he got one!

[Mags 112]

Christmas was okay, except no mention of Santa was allowed because in ages past Santa, who was actually Saint Nicholas, was pagan...a most evil belief.

Santa was pagan?

Prior to being "born-again", he followed the Greco-Roman religion.

And the jolly red fat man visage came from Coca-Cola.

[PlatyPius 5]

Santa Claus in Germanic Folklore (from Wikipedia):

Prior to the Germanic peoples' Christianization, Germanic folklore contained stories about the god Odin (Wodan), who would each year, at Yule, have a great hunting party accompanied by his fellow gods and the fallen warriors residing in his realm. Children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy [siefker, chap. 9, esp. 171-173]. This practice survived in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas.

Children still place their straw filled shoes at the chimney every winter night, and Saint Nicholas rewards them with candy and gifts. Odin's appearance was often similar to that of Saint Nicholas, being depicted as an old, mysterious man with a beard. This practice in turn came to America via the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam prior to the British seizure in the 17th century, and evolved into the hanging of socks or stockings at the fireplace. In many regions of Austria and former Austro-Hungarian Italy (Friuli, city of Trieste) children are given sweets and gift Saint Nicholas's Day (San Niccolò in Italian), in accordance with the Catholic calendar, December the 6th.

An early folk tale, originating among the Germanic tribes, tells of a holy man (sometimes Saint Nicholas), and a demon (sometimes the Devil, Krampus, or a troll). Young men dressed as Krampus are still involved in the celebration of Saint Nicholas's Day in Kärnten (southern Austria) and Carnia (northeastern Italy). The story states that the land was terrorized by a monster who at night would slither down the chimneys and slaughter children (disembowelling them or stuffing them up the flue, or keeping them in a sack to eat later). The holy man sought out the demon, and tricked it with blessed or magical shackles (in some versions the same shackles that imprisoned Christ prior to the crucifixion, in other versions the shackles were those used to hold St. Peter or Paul of Tarsus); the demon was trapped and forced to obey the saint's orders. The saint ordered him to go to each house and make amends, by delivering gifts to the children. Depending on the version, the saint either made the demon fulfill this task every year, or the demon was so disgusted by the act of good will that it chose to be sent back to Hell.

Yet other versions have the demon reform under the saint's orders, and go on to recruit other elves and imps into helping him, thus becoming Santa Claus. Another form of the above tale in Germany is of the Pelznickel or Belsnickle ("Furry Nicholas") who visited naughty children in their sleep. The name originated from the fact that the person appeared to be a huge beast since he was covered from head to toe in furs.

Most of what we Americans know as "Christmas Stuff" (Yule logs, decorated trees, red & green, etc) came from the Nordic/Germanic Pagan holiday of Yule. (Hence, Yuletide). Aside from the strictly religious parts about Yeshua, Christmas IS a pagan celebration. Hell, they even moved Yeshua's birth into December so it could be used to "take over" the holiday of Yule (which was likely banned when the Christians took over).

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

yay platy is still alive

[Mags 112]

yay platy is still alive

Told ya!