Mistake costs illegal immigrant dishwasher $59,000

[Caladan 19]

*raises hand* Just a thought here...and I think I've seen ONE post throughout this whole thread that even remotely mentioned this but....doesn't the EMPLOYER have some responsibility here for hiring an illegal? Didn't the employer break the law regarding the hiring of illegal immigrants? Or am I still asleep and seriously need another cuppa coffee this morning?

One way to lower illegal immigration: A strong incentive to make employers check that the name on the social security card matches the name of the person claiming it's his/her number. A hefty fine for every undocumented worker ever found to have been paid by said employer.

Social security number X need to match name Y, which need to match the name of the valid ID the person carries... And if person Y can't show an american birth certificate or passport (for those naturalized ones) to match name Y, ask to see a green card or EAD.

Y should not be deceased or live and work in umpteen other places at once. Nationwide database anyone? (Right, this infringes on our privacy...)

And make sure there's a way for people who DO want to do all those "jobs Americans won't do" to come here legally.

The trouble is that the current law has a lot of ways for the employer to get out of responsibility. In some ways, this is fair; the guy making $10 an hour as an assistant manager at McDonald's should not be tasked with immigration enforcement! But the end result is that if the paperwork looks more or less official, the employer has to accept it, and if the number bounces, they're supposed to just ask for the paperwork again. So the restaurants that hired the dude might technically have done everything they needed to under the law.

The trouble with making a stricter law is that absent a clear and easy way for the employer to verify someone's work status, all cracking down will do is either a) catch legally here, married women, when the SSA office screws up their card after marriage or b ) lead straight to discrimination for anyone who has an accent and non-standard paperwork (like a legally present K-1.) I know the DMV can have access to a database that checks someone's legal presence with a few hours turn-around time; some thing similar for work authorization would be great.

So the employer makes copies of the ID presented and states that "based on the presented identification, we hired the employee". I don't think we expect McDonald's to do a background check on a fry cook, just look at the applicants ID and verify that it looks legal. As for the other situations, I guess I would have to see what is required to be accepted as legal documentation by prospective employers. I have not been through the entire process yet so I guess whatever the temporary GC is or the GC itself should be adequate proof of eligibility to work. I would have to research this one to find if there is a definitive answer to this.

But that's more or less the current law. Make a photocopy of the person's ID; show that they gave you something; move along. It isn't working.

I guess my worry is that if you make the punishment very, very severe, like jail time for hiring an illegal (are we putting the CEO in jail or the $10/hour manager?), there's a LOT of unintended consequences if you don't also make it easy for someone to verify whether someone's authorized to work. If I might go to jail over hiring someone illegally, I'm not just going to dutifully check numbers and make a photocopy. I'm not going to hire anyone Hispanic. I'm not going to hire anyone who looks sort of Hispanic or foreign, either. Because the penalty for being wrong is so great I'm just not going to take the risk. I think this does more damage to the economy, and again, it will hit legally present people harder than illegals.

Anyhow, it's not being a bleeding heart. I see so many self-styled law and order types here outraged that the penalty for being illegal isn't being declared a person with no rights at all that... let's see... they're willing to overturn pretty much every civil protection towards privacy, freedom of religion, search & seizure, and are outraged that working illegally doesn't result in someone being stripped naked and sent home even when the law is followed. This is bizarre. The people arguing for the rule of law and for the guy being deported are too bleeding heart because they don't also want to run over all of our laws? Whose acting emotionally now?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

And solution short of working with Mexico to improve their economy through Fair Trade, worker's rights, etc. as well as some kind of guest worker program for unskilled laborers is just chasing one's tail.

[Ban Hammer 13,135]

And solution short of working with Mexico to improve their economy through Fair Trade, worker's rights, etc. as well as some kind of guest worker program for unskilled laborers is just chasing one's tail.

isn't nafta supposed to be doing that? and are you not anti-nafta?

Edited September 30, 2007 by charlesandnessa

[one...two...tree 2,762]

And solution short of working with Mexico to improve their economy through Fair Trade, worker's rights, etc. as well as some kind of guest worker program for unskilled laborers is just chasing one's tail.

isn't nafta supposed to be doing that? and are you not anti-nafta?

NAFTA wasn't fair and to the indigent farmers in Mexico - it basically wiped out their way of sustenance that existed for hundreds of years. Impossible to compete with American corn and other crops that are heavily subsidized (payed by you and me in the form of taxes) dumped onto the Mexican market.

[NavarreMan 10]

They should take the money away from anyone working here illegally and use the money to enforce our immigration laws, period. I don't care if some here think I am heartless. I think those people are bleeding hearts. These people come here in violation of our laws, they work here in violation of our laws and do not deserve any sympathy at all. They should not gain by their illegal activities in any way. If this were done in every case we catch then a lot less people will be willing to take the risk to come here. That is one way to reduce the illegal problem. We should also fine the sh!t out of anyone that knowingly hires an illegal, for repeated offenses they should go to jail. It's time to get tough on this problem. We need to take back control of our border and to hell with those that think this isn't a big deal.

What you should do is start a grassroots movement to have a federal bill sponsored and passed allowing this to happen. Griping about it here won't accomplish a thing except maybe make you feel better as a human being. The person you should take this up with is US District Judge James I. Cohn. He is the one presiding over this case. Why don't you travel on down to Florida and picket the courthouse? Get your publicity. Make this a federal case. No? I didn't think you would. Too easy just to complain about it than actually take action. You want America to be the way you want, you just don't want to work at getting it there.

We had a case where I live about a private business getting permission from a corrupt county commission to operate a bar in a public county park in direct violation of just about every law covering our county parks. I took this to the papers and the local television stations and devoted my spare time for 1 1/2 years to getting this injustice corrected. It is still ongoing. It is a put up or shut up kind of deal. Don't just complain, act!

Edited September 30, 2007 by NavarreMan

[NavarreMan 10]

*raises hand* Just a thought here...and I think I've seen ONE post throughout this whole thread that even remotely mentioned this but....doesn't the EMPLOYER have some responsibility here for hiring an illegal? Didn't the employer break the law regarding the hiring of illegal immigrants? Or am I still asleep and seriously need another cuppa coffee this morning?

One way to lower illegal immigration: A strong incentive to make employers check that the name on the social security card matches the name of the person claiming it's his/her number. A hefty fine for every undocumented worker ever found to have been paid by said employer.

Social security number X need to match name Y, which need to match the name of the valid ID the person carries... And if person Y can't show an american birth certificate or passport (for those naturalized ones) to match name Y, ask to see a green card or EAD.

Y should not be deceased or live and work in umpteen other places at once. Nationwide database anyone? (Right, this infringes on our privacy...)

And make sure there's a way for people who DO want to do all those "jobs Americans won't do" to come here legally.

The trouble is that the current law has a lot of ways for the employer to get out of responsibility. In some ways, this is fair; the guy making $10 an hour as an assistant manager at McDonald's should not be tasked with immigration enforcement! But the end result is that if the paperwork looks more or less official, the employer has to accept it, and if the number bounces, they're supposed to just ask for the paperwork again. So the restaurants that hired the dude might technically have done everything they needed to under the law.

The trouble with making a stricter law is that absent a clear and easy way for the employer to verify someone's work status, all cracking down will do is either a) catch legally here, married women, when the SSA office screws up their card after marriage or b ) lead straight to discrimination for anyone who has an accent and non-standard paperwork (like a legally present K-1.) I know the DMV can have access to a database that checks someone's legal presence with a few hours turn-around time; some thing similar for work authorization would be great.

So the employer makes copies of the ID presented and states that "based on the presented identification, we hired the employee". I don't think we expect McDonald's to do a background check on a fry cook, just look at the applicants ID and verify that it looks legal. As for the other situations, I guess I would have to see what is required to be accepted as legal documentation by prospective employers. I have not been through the entire process yet so I guess whatever the temporary GC is or the GC itself should be adequate proof of eligibility to work. I would have to research this one to find if there is a definitive answer to this.

But that's more or less the current law. Make a photocopy of the person's ID; show that they gave you something; move along. It isn't working.

I guess my worry is that if you make the punishment very, very severe, like jail time for hiring an illegal (are we putting the CEO in jail or the $10/hour manager?), there's a LOT of unintended consequences if you don't also make it easy for someone to verify whether someone's authorized to work. If I might go to jail over hiring someone illegally, I'm not just going to dutifully check numbers and make a photocopy. I'm not going to hire anyone Hispanic. I'm not going to hire anyone who looks sort of Hispanic or foreign, either. Because the penalty for being wrong is so great I'm just not going to take the risk. I think this does more damage to the economy, and again, it will hit legally present people harder than illegals.

Anyhow, it's not being a bleeding heart. I see so many self-styled law and order types here outraged that the penalty for being illegal isn't being declared a person with no rights at all that... let's see... they're willing to overturn pretty much every civil protection towards privacy, freedom of religion, search & seizure, and are outraged that working illegally doesn't result in someone being stripped naked and sent home even when the law is followed. This is bizarre. The people arguing for the rule of law and for the guy being deported are too bleeding heart because they don't also want to run over all of our laws? Whose acting emotionally now?

This is why the employer should be investigated as well. Pedro did not act on his own. Someone had to give him the money.

[Munesh and Suz 0]

Generally speaking - it's people like this who don't follow the rules that make it harder for the rest of us - I mean seriously - why are we on VJ? Cuz we're waiting to be "OK'd" and we're US Citizens!!! We want to legally bring someone over here that we love and care for but we have to be treated like criminals and have our backgrounds checked and double checked and triple checked if necessary! If he had come here the normal way and followed the rules he wouldn't be in this predicament - right? We're following the rules - why shouldn't he? I have no sympathy for him and for the tons of other illegals here that are reaping the benefits of our tax dollars. I work for a county hospital - I know we are paying for these illegals to get medical care ........

suz

[L_n_O 3]

uh oh

[KarenCee 3]

*passes liz some popcorn*

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Generally speaking - it's people like this who don't follow the rules that make it harder for the rest of us - I mean seriously - why are we on VJ? Cuz we're waiting to be "OK'd" and we're US Citizens!!! We want to legally bring someone over here that we love and care for but we have to be treated like criminals and have our backgrounds checked and double checked and triple checked if necessary! If he had come here the normal way and followed the rules he wouldn't be in this predicament - right? We're following the rules - why shouldn't he? I have no sympathy for him and for the tons of other illegals here that are reaping the benefits of our tax dollars. I work for a county hospital - I know we are paying for these illegals to get medical care ........

suz

Suz, there's an historical context of why we've had ongoing migrations of Mexicans in this country. It was less than 150 years ago that most of the Southwest was Mexican territory. When the U.S. fought Mexico for the land, Mexicans living on that land were offered U.S. citizenship if they wanted it, yet many of them had the very land they owned taken away from them.

It was less than 50 years ago that the U.S. was rounding up Mexican American (people here legally), putting them onto to trains the deporting them to Mexico. Prior to that and continuing up into recent times, migrant farm workers were invited here to work the fields.

Most recently, the enactment of NAFTA has all but destroyed the sustenance of millions of indigent Mexican farmers as they couldn't compete against U.S. corn and other crops that are heavily subsidized (a total of $25 billion of your money).

It is not a criminal offense to be here in the U.S. illegally. I don't think you'll find anyone here advocating that it's ok to just be here illegally, but what you find is some of us don't join in on the "illegal immigrants are dirt" brigade. They're people trying to make a sustenance for themselves. It is an economic issue and declaring war on illegal immigration isn't going to stop it. The best thing we can do is help Mexico's economy grow strong and offer guest worker visas for low skilled laborers. Everything else has so far proven futile in curbing illegal immigration.

[NavarreMan 10]

My point is that so many of the VJer's out there and the American population in general readily feel the need to take the law into their own hands while advocating following the laws and punishing those who do not abide by them. You cannot have it both ways. Up hold the laws for one, uphold them for all.

All evidence we have seen indicate Mr. Zapeta is guilty. Great. He will be dealt with. But many of you think that he should be stripped of all he has worked for and banished from our country without due process. This is illegal. We have established laws to protect us from unjust actions such as these. Our laws also protect Mr. Zapeta from being unjustly bullied by the law. It is fairly certain that he will be punished and to what extent I do not know. But that is not for me or any of us here, to decide. Speculation is pointless and only incites.

It may interest some of you to know that while this case awaits adjudication, Mr. Zapeta is back washing dishes and has a donation fund set up to help him out. How's that for justice? I think they should make a deal with him and get him out of the country and soon before he becomes some sort of martyr for the immigrant cause. Just my opinion. It is not worth much.

[GaryC 7]

And solution short of working with Mexico to improve their economy through Fair Trade, worker's rights, etc. as well as some kind of guest worker program for unskilled laborers is just chasing one's tail.

Spoken like a true global socialist. Mexico's economy is their own fault. They have vast natural resources and the only excuse for their economy is their governments. Our only responsibility it to protect our border, nothing more. I am all for a guest worker program but only after we get all the illegal gate crashers out of here. And I would not be in favor of anyone that came here illegally to get a guest worker visa. They already have shown they don't respect our laws and I see no reason why they should be allowed back in. And amnesty? HELL NO!!

[Ban Hammer 13,135]

Suz, there's an historical context of why we've had ongoing migrations of Mexicans in this country. It was less than 150 years ago that most of the Southwest was Mexican territory. When the U.S. fought Mexico for the land, Mexicans living on that land were offered U.S. citizenship if they wanted it, yet many of them had the very land they owned taken away from them.

It was less than 50 years ago that the U.S. was rounding up Mexican American (people here legally), putting them onto to trains the deporting them to Mexico. Prior to that and continuing up into recent times, migrant farm workers were invited here to work the fields.

Most recently, the enactment of NAFTA has all but destroyed the sustenance of millions of indigent Mexican farmers as they couldn't compete against U.S. corn and other crops that are heavily subsidized (a total of $25 billion of your money).

It is not a criminal offense to be here in the U.S. illegally. I don't think you'll find anyone here advocating that it's ok to just be here illegally, but what you find is some of us don't join in on the "illegal immigrants are dirt" brigade. They're people trying to make a sustenance for themselves. It is an economic issue and declaring war on illegal immigration isn't going to stop it. The best thing we can do is help Mexico's economy grow strong and offer guest worker visas for low skilled laborers. Everything else has so far proven futile in curbing illegal immigration.

first bolded part - um that's what happens when you lose a war. what happened that many generations ago is nothing more than an excuse.

second bolded part - i don't hold any hope for that being of any help whatsoever. we can't even find the ones here illegally and now some nutjob in washington wants us to let them into the country so they can disappear into the woodwork too?

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

The socialists on this site amaze me some times! Wait till tents start poppin up in their back yard then we'll see how they react. The love they throw around is worth about as much as a used condom. Speaking of used condoms. It might be a good idea for some to start usin them.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

And solution short of working with Mexico to improve their economy through Fair Trade, worker's rights, etc. as well as some kind of guest worker program for unskilled laborers is just chasing one's tail.

Spoken like a true global socialist. Mexico's economy is their own fault. They have vast natural resources and the only excuse for their economy is their governments. Our only responsibility it to protect our border, nothing more. I am all for a guest worker program but only after we get all the illegal gate crashers out of here. And I would not be in favor of anyone that came here illegally to get a guest worker visa. They already have shown they don't respect our laws and I see no reason why they should be allowed back in. And amnesty? HELL NO!!

Gary, I know you like to suggest that I'm a socialist, but please stop. Advocating Fair Trade with Mexico isn't socialism, although subsidizing our own corn is a form of welfare, which I think that you of all people would at least acknowledge should be discontinued. How can you support trade with Mexico when our crop prices our subsidized by the American taxpayer??? And yet you imply I'm a socialist? tsk, tsk.