What are the Pro's and Con's for remaining a US Permanent Resident against becoming a US Citizen?

[Logres 0]

I'm thinking ahead, and the first stage of my US immigration journey where I have to make a decision will be when I am entitled to apply for US Citizenship through naturalisation (OK, not the first decision but having started on the K-1 route, I have to continue down an established route.) Of course I assuming that the process in three years (plus) time is the same as today.

Idealistically I feel comfortable in accepting the current oath today, and naturally am inclined to go down that route to increase the chances of being able to remain in the US with my wife.

What reasons have people found for and against making the decision to apply for naturalisation over remaining on a green card?

One immediate issue is that I understand I would have to file US Tax Returns forevermore regardless of where I was living - this may be inconvenient, but hardly a show-stopper....

What else have people discovered through experience?

Thanks for your thoughts>

Edited September 27, 2007 by Logres

[Anastassia 0]

Very interesting post

I am not at this stage yet but I kept telling my husband that I would not apply for the citizenship when the time comes becasue I am sick and tired of Americans thinking that everybody's life goal is to become a citizen of their country. I am sick and tired of being treated like I am "worse" just because I am a foreigner, etc. etc. I don't feel welcome here.

But it's all emotional, nothing substantial. Now I am thinking:

1. I have to drive 200 miles to make my passport renewed and it costs me big $$$ to have it done through the embassy.

2. I work for the federal government and who knows - what if one day they decide that the permanent resident can't be employed by them ?

3. What if I retire here and one day SS Administration will decide not to pay my benefits just because I am not a citizen - laws can change any time ?

etc, etc, so it's possible that I will change my mind when the time comes.

Ana

[YuAndDan 153]

Here is a list I found:

1. A Citizen Can Vote

   A citizen has the right to vote for elected officials at the federal, state and local levels who shape the policy of the government.

2. Dual Citizenship (Currently N/A with China)

   Certain countries, including Ireland and the United Kingdom, recognize "dual citizenship" permitting naturalized U.S. citizens to maintain their citizenship of birth and original passport.

3. Citizens Can Bring More Relatives From Abroad, More Quickly

   Citizens can petition for a wider variety of family members to come to the US as permanent residents. They also have much shorter waiting times for green cards, and no limits.

4. Citizens Cannot be Deported

   Most of us never expect to commit a crime, but if we are the victims of circumstance, in the wrong place at the wrong time, as citizens, we cannot be deported. We also don't need to worry about a lost green card or too-long stay outside the US preventing us from re-entering.

5. Citizens Can Retire Abroad With Full Social Security Benefits

   Citizens who retire abroad get all their Social Security benefits. Green card holders only get half of the benefits they earned.

6. Citizens are Entitled to More Public Benefits

   Citizens are eligible for more public benefits, including Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and Food Stamps, as well as certain academic scholarships and financial aid.

7. A US Citizen Can Hold Office and Have More Job Opportunities

   Only a citizen has the right to hold an elected position in most city, state or federal offices. Many federal, state and city jobs also require citizenship.

8. Adopted or Natural Children Under 18 May be Naturalized Automatically

   Depending on the circumstances, children born abroad, who are under 18 years of age and unmarried may be able to naturalize automatically when a parent does so.

9. Citizens Have More Financial and Tax Benefits

   Citizens often receive approval on loans and mortgages more easily, and/or they get better rates, because the lender knows there is less chance they will defect. Citizens are often subject to fewer restrictions on estate taxes as well.

10. Citizens Don't Have to Worry About Renewing a Green Card Every 10 Years

    We have enough to worry about with passports and other paperwork. As citizens, we don't have to worry about renewing a green cards every ten years.

http://immigration.about.com/od/whybecomea...0CitizenBen.htm

OR

A Person that is a naturalized citizen cannot be deported over a petty crime, which could be an honest mistake.

One Strike, You're Out

Anna Werner

Reporting

Many people here legally with green cards are being deported because the government claims they've committed "aggravated felonies,†which you would think would be serious crimes like murder and drug trafficking.

But as we found out, that's not always the case.

And now that expanding definition of an aggravated felony raises a troubling question: is the government's immigration policy of "one strike, you're out" tipping the scales of justice, and ruining people's lives?

If ever there was someone symbolic of the American dream, it's Gurdev Gill.

Gill arrived here from India in 1986 and built a small ranch into a 300-acre farm near Fresno, where he and his family turn grapes into Thompson seedless raisins. The 82-year-old farmer says his time here has been happy. Just this June, Gill became a local celebrity when he appeared on the cover of American Vineyard magazine, after being named Farmer of the Year by the local chamber of commerce for his outstanding contributions to the community.

So when Gillâ€â€a legal resident with a green cardâ€â€went as the last member of his family to apply to become a U-S citizen, the government's response came as a shock to his son Harry. “I was in the office,†says Harry. “My wife called me and she said you know what? Dad got a deportation letter. And I said what?"

The reason? Something that happened here 15 years ago, at a gas station the family owns that was plagued by drug dealers. “They used to go and break up my store,†says Harry.

So one day, Gurdev Gill took action.

“He tried to get these people away from here,†says Harry. “So he took his gun out of his pickup and fired in the air.â€

“His intention was not to harm them,†says his son Avtar says,

Gurdev Gill was fined and given probation for possessing a loaded firearm, never serving a day in jail. That was in 1991. And at the time, the incident would not have affected Gill's status in this country. But now, 15 years later, the government claims that old misdemeanor makes him a dangerous man who should be deported.

“He’s hardly a danger to the community,†says his attorney, Bob Jobe, who sees the same thing happening to long term residents with a green card all over the country. “It’s exponential, the difference between today and ten years ago.â€

If it happened to my father, it can happen to anybody,†says Gill’s son Harry.

And Lucas Guttentag, who teaches immigrants' rights at UC Berkeley and Stanford law school, believes, "This is the most punitive immigration laws we've seen, I think, for a hundred years".

That's because this law as written in 1988 was meant to deport only felons who'd committed serious crimes like murder or drug trafficking. But in 1996 Congress broadened the law. And worse, they made it retroactive. Which means now immigration authorities can look back twenty, thirty, even forty years and virtually any minor offense, like drunk driving, even shoplifting, is enough to get a longtime resident deported.

But it's a law immigration opponents applaud, like Ira Mehlman of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, or FAIR.

"If you have come here and violated the law, there is no reason why we should keep you around," says Mehlman.

"How do you know that the people they're deporting are the right people" asks reporter Anna Werner.

Mehlman's answer: "Well, if they have a criminal conviction, then they're the right people."

But are they? Joren Lyons of San Francisco's non-profit Asian Law Caucus complains that the law doesn't take any personal factors into account. "Once the case has been filed," says Lyons, "the immigration judges themselves have no discretion at all."

Take for example Lyons' client, 21-year-old Sam Nhek, who was born in a refugee camp in Thailand after his Cambodian mother barely escaped the infamous "killing fields" that claimed his father's life. Sam was a year old when they legally settled in the U.S., where his mom remarried and he grew up as a typical Southern California kid.

But one day he went joyriding in a stolen car with a friend and wound up serving time in jail for possession of stolen property. Because Sam wasn't eligible for citizenship until he turned â€and was therefore still a green card holder and not a U.S. citizen" that joyriding offense is about to get him deported.

“I regret what I did, "he says, close to tears, and adds that he's willing to accept more jail time if it would help him stay in America. He now works six days a week helping to support the rest of his family. "I don't want to be away from them. That's all I want most, just my family, just be with my family."

Instead, Sam is about to be deported to Cambodia" even though he's never been there and doesn't speak the language. “I wouldn't know where I would walk if I was dropped off somewhere," he worries. "I wouldn't know who to talk to."

“He didn't kill someone, he didn't shoot somebody,†says attorney Lyons. “He's not a drug kingpin. He was in possession of a stolen car as a 19-year-old. That's not the kind of thing that you should take somebody away from their family without a hearing on whether they've learned from the experience and whether they're likely to repeat it.â€

Sam's mom says it’s like a piece of her heart falling out. “He didn't hurt anybody, but why they have to take him away?â€

Immigration reformer Ira Mehlman has an answer. “They are a guest here. And until they become citizens of the United States, they have to abide by the rules. And if you don't abide by the rules, then you ought to be removed from this country.â€

“None of these are easy decisions,†says Chuck DeMore, head of investigations for Immigration and Customs Enforcement in San Francisco. “If you expect every time that there is a sympathetic factor to not enforce the law, it's not going to happen that way. I mean, there have to be compelling, compelling reasons.â€

So what about a case like farmer Gurdev Gill's?

“Shouldn't there be some discretion,†asks Anna Werner, “in the case of a man who is over 80 years old, runs a successful business, contributes economically to the community, and had a very, very minor charge where he was trying to protect himself years and years ago and paid the penalty for it?â€

Answers DeMore: “Your age, your financial situation, if you're wealthy, shouldn't protect you from the same laws that govern the rest of the people.â€

“What about being, in essence, a good citizen?†asks Werner.

“If you want me to say he shouldn't have been removed or he shouldn't be in removal proceedings, I'm not going to say that. I mean, that is the law,†says DeMore.

“But if he loses in the end, that's the way it is?â€

“That's the way it is.â€

Which doesn’t sit well with immigration rights professor Lucas Guttentag. “What we're seeing now is very harsh and aggressive enforcement of very punitive laws. And a failure to consider the human consequences.â€

And his recommendation?

“I would say to people who have green cards, if you want to become a U.S. citizen, and you're eligible, do it immediately. The law can change tomorrow and suddenly subject them to deportation based on grounds that didn't exist today.â€

http://cbs5.com/30minutes/local_story_266005518.html Edited September 27, 2007 by YuAndDan

[YuAndDan 153]

""

Edited September 27, 2007 by YuAndDan

[Logres 0]

Here is a list I found:

/quote]

There's certainly a lot of Pro's there......... There would have to be some serious Con's to outweigh that lot!

[Nanusia & Lukaszek 0]

Here is a list I found:

1. A Citizen Can Vote

   A citizen has the right to vote for elected officials at the federal, state and local levels who shape the policy of the government.

2. Dual Citizenship (Currently N/A with China)

   Certain countries, including Ireland and the United Kingdom, recognize "dual citizenship" permitting naturalized U.S. citizens to maintain their citizenship of birth and original passport.

3. Citizens Can Bring More Relatives From Abroad, More Quickly

   Citizens can petition for a wider variety of family members to come to the US as permanent residents. They also have much shorter waiting times for green cards, and no limits.

4. Citizens Cannot be Deported

   Most of us never expect to commit a crime, but if we are the victims of circumstance, in the wrong place at the wrong time, as citizens, we cannot be deported. We also don't need to worry about a lost green card or too-long stay outside the US preventing us from re-entering.

5. Citizens Can Retire Abroad With Full Social Security Benefits

   Citizens who retire abroad get all their Social Security benefits. Green card holders only get half of the benefits they earned.

6. Citizens are Entitled to More Public Benefits

   Citizens are eligible for more public benefits, including Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and Food Stamps, as well as certain academic scholarships and financial aid.

7. A US Citizen Can Hold Office and Have More Job Opportunities

   Only a citizen has the right to hold an elected position in most city, state or federal offices. Many federal, state and city jobs also require citizenship.

8. Adopted or Natural Children Under 18 May be Naturalized Automatically

   Depending on the circumstances, children born abroad, who are under 18 years of age and unmarried may be able to naturalize automatically when a parent does so.

9. Citizens Have More Financial and Tax Benefits

   Citizens often receive approval on loans and mortgages more easily, and/or they get better rates, because the lender knows there is less chance they will defect. Citizens are often subject to fewer restrictions on estate taxes as well.

10. Citizens Don't Have to Worry About Renewing a Green Card Every 10 Years

    We have enough to worry about with passports and other paperwork. As citizens, we don't have to worry about renewing a green cards every ten years.

http://immigration.about.com/od/whybecomea...0CitizenBen.htm

Oh man! I'm a citizen and I didn't even know some of these!

My husband wants to get his citizenship when the time comes just so he can have the flexibility of that list right there! Also, he's been contemplating becoming a police officer. In our state you must be a citizen to be one, so that's one thing to work towards.

Also a real big thing, more of a "protection" feature is that once you are a citizen you have the US behind you. In case you commit a crime elsewhere in the world the US has to allow them to extradite you. If you were a mere US resident, they'd stick you on the next plane home. Not saying this is a pro to become a criminal, but a good just in case factor

And I think the best one is, that if you are a citizen you NEVER have to deal with USCIS again. No more renewing your 10yr greencard, no more dealing with their slacking, their high fees! That reason alone is awesome!

Edited September 27, 2007 by Nanusia & Lukaszek

[Anastassia 0]

"The law can change tomorrow and suddenly subject them to deportation based on grounds that didn't exist today."

ditto

[YuAndDan 153]

"The law can change tomorrow and suddenly subject them to deportation based on grounds that didn't exist today."

ditto

Number 4 on the list.

There are not many Cons that I can think of, especially for a person from a country that allows "Dual" Citizenship like the UK.

[YuAndDan 153]

My husband wants to get his citizenship when the time comes just so he can have the flexibility of that list right there! Also, he's been contemplating becoming a police officer. In our state you must be a citizen to be one, so that's one thing to work towards.

Actually, you must be a citizen to join the police force in any of the 50 states.

[Ta Ta 1]

"The law can change tomorrow and suddenly subject them to deportation based on grounds that didn't exist today."

ditto

Exactly, and for all the other mentioned reasons I became a USC and so will my fiance when he gets here.

Being tired of the hassle with forms and expense is understandable but not a good enough reason.

[lucyrich 20]

Another one is that a citizen doesn't have to carry ID, unless doing something which requires ID, such as driving or carrying a firearm. Specifically, no Green Card is ever required.

It's a misdemeanor for an Alien to be present without his Green Card in his immediate posession. Theoretically, if you're swimming on the beach, and don't have your GC in your swimming suit pocket, you're committing a crime. This hasn't been enforced very much to date, but it could be (probably not to the extreme of the beach example, but you should always have the GC somewhere nearby).

If you lose your GC, you're in violation until you get a replacement. And you've got to pay big bucks for the replacement.

Drivers licenses are cheap to replace, compared to green cards. And you only are required to carry a driver's license while you're driving, though it might be handy to be able to show it for other purposes.

[YuAndDan 153]

Another one is that a citizen doesn't have to carry ID, unless doing something which requires ID, such as driving or carrying a firearm. Specifically, no Green Card is ever required.

It's a misdemeanor for an Alien to be present without his Green Card in his immediate posession. Theoretically, if you're swimming on the beach, and don't have your GC in your swimming suit pocket, you're committing a crime. This hasn't been enforced very much to date, but it could be (probably not to the extreme of the beach example, but you should always have the GC somewhere nearby).

If you lose your GC, you're in violation until you get a replacement. And you've got to pay big bucks for the replacement.

Drivers licenses are cheap to replace, compared to green cards. And you only are required to carry a driver's license while you're driving, though it might be handy to be able to show it for other purposes.

Great point! Yep get caught without the green-card in your possession, and find yourself looking at point 4 on the list. Yes the USA can be a police state for LPR's.

[pushbrk 12,883]

There's certainly a lot of Pro's there......... There would have to be some serious Con's to outweigh that lot!

Pro's and con's go both ways. I'm with Dan, in that if you can have dual citizenship it seems like a no brainer. Since the OP can, my comments will not apply to them or others who can maintain dual citizenship.

For the others, one must also weigh the pro's and con's of maintaining their current citizenship and do all of the weighing against their personal priorities and future plans.

We have time to change our minds but the main reason we aren't currently considering citizenship for my wife is that we plan to own property and live a good part of each year in China, beginining about the time she would be eligible for US Citizenship. From the best we can tell, my sticking around and our owning property in China is far easier if she maintains her Chinese Citizenship. Because of our plans, some of pro's of US Citizenship are mitigated. For instance, she is highly unlikely to ever meet the 40 quarters for Social Security but from the best I can tell, she'll be able to draw my surviver benefit in the likely event she survives me.

[Jasman0717 9]

Here is a list I found:

1. A Citizen Can Vote

   A citizen has the right to vote for elected officials at the federal, state and local levels who shape the policy of the government.

2. Dual Citizenship (Currently N/A with China)

   Certain countries, including Ireland and the United Kingdom, recognize "dual citizenship" permitting naturalized U.S. citizens to maintain their citizenship of birth and original passport.

3. Citizens Can Bring More Relatives From Abroad, More Quickly

   Citizens can petition for a wider variety of family members to come to the US as permanent residents. They also have much shorter waiting times for green cards, and no limits.

4. Citizens Cannot be Deported

   Most of us never expect to commit a crime, but if we are the victims of circumstance, in the wrong place at the wrong time, as citizens, we cannot be deported. We also don't need to worry about a lost green card or too-long stay outside the US preventing us from re-entering.

5. Citizens Can Retire Abroad With Full Social Security Benefits

   Citizens who retire abroad get all their Social Security benefits. Green card holders only get half of the benefits they earned.

6. Citizens are Entitled to More Public Benefits

   Citizens are eligible for more public benefits, including Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and Food Stamps, as well as certain academic scholarships and financial aid.

7. A US Citizen Can Hold Office and Have More Job Opportunities

   Only a citizen has the right to hold an elected position in most city, state or federal offices. Many federal, state and city jobs also require citizenship.

8. Adopted or Natural Children Under 18 May be Naturalized Automatically

   Depending on the circumstances, children born abroad, who are under 18 years of age and unmarried may be able to naturalize automatically when a parent does so.

9. Citizens Have More Financial and Tax Benefits

   Citizens often receive approval on loans and mortgages more easily, and/or they get better rates, because the lender knows there is less chance they will defect. Citizens are often subject to fewer restrictions on estate taxes as well.

10. Citizens Don't Have to Worry About Renewing a Green Card Every 10 Years

    We have enough to worry about with passports and other paperwork. As citizens, we don't have to worry about renewing a green cards every ten years.

http://immigration.about.com/od/whybecomea...0CitizenBen.htm

OR

A Person that is a naturalized citizen cannot be deported over a petty crime, which could be an honest mistake.

One Strike, You're Out

Anna Werner

Reporting

Many people here legally with green cards are being deported because the government claims they've committed "aggravated felonies,†which you would think would be serious crimes like murder and drug trafficking.

But as we found out, that's not always the case.

And now that expanding definition of an aggravated felony raises a troubling question: is the government's immigration policy of "one strike, you're out" tipping the scales of justice, and ruining people's lives?

If ever there was someone symbolic of the American dream, it's Gurdev Gill.

Gill arrived here from India in 1986 and built a small ranch into a 300-acre farm near Fresno, where he and his family turn grapes into Thompson seedless raisins. The 82-year-old farmer says his time here has been happy. Just this June, Gill became a local celebrity when he appeared on the cover of American Vineyard magazine, after being named Farmer of the Year by the local chamber of commerce for his outstanding contributions to the community.

So when Gillâ€â€a legal resident with a green cardâ€â€went as the last member of his family to apply to become a U-S citizen, the government's response came as a shock to his son Harry. â€Å"I was in the office,†says Harry. â€Å"My wife called me and she said you know what? Dad got a deportation letter. And I said what?"

The reason? Something that happened here 15 years ago, at a gas station the family owns that was plagued by drug dealers. â€Å"They used to go and break up my store,†says Harry.

So one day, Gurdev Gill took action.

â€Å"He tried to get these people away from here,†says Harry. â€Å"So he took his gun out of his pickup and fired in the air.â€

â€Å"His intention was not to harm them,†says his son Avtar says,

Gurdev Gill was fined and given probation for possessing a loaded firearm, never serving a day in jail. That was in 1991. And at the time, the incident would not have affected Gill's status in this country. But now, 15 years later, the government claims that old misdemeanor makes him a dangerous man who should be deported.

â€Å"He’s hardly a danger to the community,†says his attorney, Bob Jobe, who sees the same thing happening to long term residents with a green card all over the country. â€Å"It’s exponential, the difference between today and ten years ago.â€

If it happened to my father, it can happen to anybody,†says Gill’s son Harry.

And Lucas Guttentag, who teaches immigrants' rights at UC Berkeley and Stanford law school, believes, "This is the most punitive immigration laws we've seen, I think, for a hundred years".

That's because this law as written in 1988 was meant to deport only felons who'd committed serious crimes like murder or drug trafficking. But in 1996 Congress broadened the law. And worse, they made it retroactive. Which means now immigration authorities can look back twenty, thirty, even forty years and virtually any minor offense, like drunk driving, even shoplifting, is enough to get a longtime resident deported.

But it's a law immigration opponents applaud, like Ira Mehlman of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, or FAIR.

"If you have come here and violated the law, there is no reason why we should keep you around," says Mehlman.

"How do you know that the people they're deporting are the right people" asks reporter Anna Werner.

Mehlman's answer: "Well, if they have a criminal conviction, then they're the right people."

But are they? Joren Lyons of San Francisco's non-profit Asian Law Caucus complains that the law doesn't take any personal factors into account. "Once the case has been filed," says Lyons, "the immigration judges themselves have no discretion at all."

Take for example Lyons' client, 21-year-old Sam Nhek, who was born in a refugee camp in Thailand after his Cambodian mother barely escaped the infamous "killing fields" that claimed his father's life. Sam was a year old when they legally settled in the U.S., where his mom remarried and he grew up as a typical Southern California kid.

But one day he went joyriding in a stolen car with a friend and wound up serving time in jail for possession of stolen property. Because Sam wasn't eligible for citizenship until he turned â€and was therefore still a green card holder and not a U.S. citizen" that joyriding offense is about to get him deported.

â€Å"I regret what I did, "he says, close to tears, and adds that he's willing to accept more jail time if it would help him stay in America. He now works six days a week helping to support the rest of his family. "I don't want to be away from them. That's all I want most, just my family, just be with my family."

Instead, Sam is about to be deported to Cambodia" even though he's never been there and doesn't speak the language. â€Å"I wouldn't know where I would walk if I was dropped off somewhere," he worries. "I wouldn't know who to talk to."

â€Å"He didn't kill someone, he didn't shoot somebody,†says attorney Lyons. â€Å"He's not a drug kingpin. He was in possession of a stolen car as a 19-year-old. That's not the kind of thing that you should take somebody away from their family without a hearing on whether they've learned from the experience and whether they're likely to repeat it.â€

Sam's mom says it’s like a piece of her heart falling out. â€Å"He didn't hurt anybody, but why they have to take him away?â€

Immigration reformer Ira Mehlman has an answer. â€Å"They are a guest here. And until they become citizens of the United States, they have to abide by the rules. And if you don't abide by the rules, then you ought to be removed from this country.â€

â€Å"None of these are easy decisions,†says Chuck DeMore, head of investigations for Immigration and Customs Enforcement in San Francisco. â€Å"If you expect every time that there is a sympathetic factor to not enforce the law, it's not going to happen that way. I mean, there have to be compelling, compelling reasons.â€

So what about a case like farmer Gurdev Gill's?

â€Å"Shouldn't there be some discretion,†asks Anna Werner, â€Å"in the case of a man who is over 80 years old, runs a successful business, contributes economically to the community, and had a very, very minor charge where he was trying to protect himself years and years ago and paid the penalty for it?â€

Answers DeMore: â€Å"Your age, your financial situation, if you're wealthy, shouldn't protect you from the same laws that govern the rest of the people.â€

â€Å"What about being, in essence, a good citizen?†asks Werner.

â€Å"If you want me to say he shouldn't have been removed or he shouldn't be in removal proceedings, I'm not going to say that. I mean, that is the law,†says DeMore.

â€Å"But if he loses in the end, that's the way it is?â€

â€Å"That's the way it is.â€

Which doesn’t sit well with immigration rights professor Lucas Guttentag. â€Å"What we're seeing now is very harsh and aggressive enforcement of very punitive laws. And a failure to consider the human consequences.â€

And his recommendation?

â€Å"I would say to people who have green cards, if you want to become a U.S. citizen, and you're eligible, do it immediately. The law can change tomorrow and suddenly subject them to deportation based on grounds that didn't exist today.â€

http://cbs5.com/30minutes/local_story_266005518.html

Very informative, thanks

[bislig2alabama 1]

Number 4

become a dual citizen