Police certificate - Abkhazia, Republic of Georgia (cross-post)

[Chris Parker 11]

It was wisely suggested I cross-post the topic referenced below in this forum, as some of you may be able to provide me with some more concrete information on what I need to do regarding the immigrant visa police certificate requirement for a former residence in Abkhazia before moving to Russia.

For convenience, my opening post in this topic is quoted below. However, to keep all information together in one thread, if you have a reply to add, please click on the link to access the main topic in the other forum, reply there, and you may also subscribe to the topic to get notification of updates. Thank you!

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1208763

The immigrant visa applicant in our case was born in Abkhazia, Republic of Georgia and lived there until about age 20. She left there 30 years ago to move to Russia, at a time when these countries were all part of USSR. Today, Abkhazia is a separatist-controlled region of the Republic of Georgia. In other words, it is sort of a war zone that the Republic of Georgia has no control over. This separatist government has its own declaration of independence, its own constitution, its own flag, and its own president, although it isn't internationally recognized by any country in the world. However, U.S. Embassy in Georgia has indicated they would expect a police certificate from Georgia for a residence period in Abkhazia. However, we would be applying for an immigrant visa in Russia, not in Georgia.

All other relatives have left Abkhazia permanently, mostly in a sort of exile to Russia about 15 years ago, and all have great fear of persecution from the governments of Abkhazia and/or Georgia, including the immigrant visa applicant especially. The issue of loyalties is a very politically-sensitive issue in all three places (Georgia, Russia, and Abkhazia) for which people can be put into prison or worse for their background or views. The border and mail service is also closed indefinitely between Russia and Georgia because of strained relations on this and other subjects. Therefore, to get mail to the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, or to in fact travel there from Russia, one must route via a 3rd country, such as Armenia or USA. This situation is something like trying to go to Cuba from the USA, which BTW is illegal for U.S. citizens without official permission.

Some of this situation is also documented in the U.S. Consular Information Sheet for Georgia, although that document also states police certificates are available from Georgia's centralized database in the capital city or by mail or by representative. Nobody answers the phone in the office of the police department in the Georgian capital city where police certificates are usually issued. The Georgian embassy in Russia also refuses to apply for the certificate on the applicant's behalf, arguing only that the applicant must get a police certificate from Russia (which we know and we already have). It is questionable if the police certificate could even be issued, given the Georgian government's lack of control and access to local records in Abkhazia, as well as the passage of time (30+ years). Whether a police certificate from the de facto separatist government of Abkhazia would be accepted instead to meet the requirement, if it were somehow obtained, is also still unclear given the word "locality" used in the NVC police certificate instructions.

Now, the obvious question comes up, is a police certificate from Georgia and/or Abkhazia really going to be required from the immigrant visa applicant under these circumstances? It is a very risky and expensive proposition to go to Tbilisi, Georgia, to attempt to apply for a police certificate, and I am under the impression that a police certificate requirement can be waived by the consular officer as unobtainable if it would cause extreme hardship to the applicant to get it, as it appears to me that it would in this situation.

Does anyone have any advice, comments, experience or suggestions on getting a required police certificate for a previous place of residence waived given extraordinary circumstances and multiple obstacles such as this situation? This is a very disturbing problem for all of us. How do refugees and stateless persons accomplish this feat?

[1HappyGuy 45]

It seems to me that the situation is dependent upon which embassy you are filing the petition to. If you are filing in Moscow, then an explanation of the situation will probably be accepted considering her 30 years in Russia. But, you should at least make an attempt to obtain a police certificate by mail from the country. The chances of obtaining a certificate of clearance from the specific area is probably much less likely than from the capital. Keep copies of all letters sent along with evidence of mailing to support your position. If she has a clean record in Russia that will probably be all that you will need.

[Chris Parker 11]

It seems to me that the situation is dependent upon which embassy you are filing the petition to. If you are filing in Moscow, then an explanation of the situation will probably be accepted considering her 30 years in Russia. But, you should at least make an attempt to obtain a police certificate by mail from the country. The chances of obtaining a certificate of clearance from the specific area is probably much less likely than from the capital. Keep copies of all letters sent along with evidence of mailing to support your position. If she has a clean record in Russia that will probably be all that you will need.

Moscow will be processing the visa. The Russia police certificate is clean. The trouble there is, because the Russia-Georgia border is closed, postal mail service between the two countries is also suspended. We tried sending a letter, it was returned as undeliverable for that reason. Therefore, she really can't mail a request from Russia to Tbilisi, Georgia, nor even if they got it and processed it, they couldn't send the certificate back to Russia from Tbilisi. Then there is also the question of fee payment, for how can money be sent by mail with no banking system? ... and even if we could overcome that problem, how would we know how much it will cost when no one answers the phone? I know the reciprocity document says this can be done by mail, but anyone who has lived in these countries probably knows that you really can't do business that way yet, especially not with the government.

[Kotenochek 0]

I was born in Georgia tbilisi and lived there till age 12 than moved to russia.I got my k1 in moscow in the age of 22.I did not need any paper from georgia at all!Ex soviet countries have a problem with papers,especially when it comes to records...If I understood it right and she lives in russia that long she just needs to get a police record from Mid-that covers whole russian region,but takes around 2 months to get it.

Not mid sorry MVD of Russia

[Chris Parker 11]

I was born in Georgia tbilisi and lived there till age 12 than moved to russia.I got my k1 in moscow in the age of 22.I did not need any paper from georgia at all!Ex soviet countries have a problem with papers,especially when it comes to records...If I understood it right and she lives in russia that long she just needs to get a police record from Mid-that covers whole russian region,but takes around 2 months to get it.

Not mid sorry MVD of Russia

We have the MVD police certificate from Russia. It is not enough.

You didn't need any papers because you left Georgia at 12, which is before age 16.

She left at age 20. That is why it is required too.

Your sentiments are exactly what everybody in Russia is telling us, except of course the U.S. embassy that requires it. This is a very frustrating problem.

[Kotenochek 0]

Try to call georgian embassy in Moscow,maybe they can somehow help,because before she got russian passport they needed to check if she was criminal and all these records must be somewhere in Russia.

[Chris Parker 11]

Try to call georgian embassy in Moscow,maybe they can somehow help,because before she got russian passport they needed to check if she was criminal and all these records must be somewhere in Russia.

She had USSR passport and had moved to Russia at the time of the fall of the Soviet Union. Hence she became Russian citizen, not Georgian.

Georgian embassy in Moscow has been no help; literally all the can say is she needs a police certificate from Russia. Like we were asking Georgia for advice on how to get a USA visa! (not what we were asking for) While Georgian embassy in New York has been more helpful, the answer still is the best way to get the certificate is to go to Tbilisi, a quite expensive and dangerous proposition, especially since it is pretty clear the records are not going to be available anyway!

Edited October 3, 2007 by Chris Parker

[Neonred 3,562]

Did you contact the US embassy about this problem? My wife had lived in Kyrgyzstan and was having no luck getting the police certificate even through their embassy in Moscow. We were very concerned and I contacted the US embassy about it and their reply was essentially that if you tried and it was not possible then they would understand.

[Chris Parker 11]

Did you contact the US embassy about this problem? My wife had lived in Kyrgyzstan and was having no luck getting the police certificate even through their embassy in Moscow. We were very concerned and I contacted the US embassy about it and their reply was essentially that if you tried and it was not possible then they would understand.

I am still trying to get a straight answer like that from the U.S. embassy in Moscow.

The best answer so far, which is incomplete at best is,

"We suggest that you contact the Central Information Unit with the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Moscow, Ul. Novocheremushkinskaya 67(tel. 332-3058) for the information or submit a refusal letter from Georgia consulate."

The first suggestion there raises some interesting questions that I've now asked for clarification about: "If we do make contact

with the Central Information Unit with the Ministry of Internal Affairs (of the Russian Federation?) in Moscow, exactly what

information should we be requesting from them related to the required Georgian police certificate?"

Do you have any idea what they are talking about? What evidence did you have of the attempt to get the police certificate? Have you had a visa interview yet?

[Neonred 3,562]

Did you contact the US embassy about this problem? My wife had lived in Kyrgyzstan and was having no luck getting the police certificate even through their embassy in Moscow. We were very concerned and I contacted the US embassy about it and their reply was essentially that if you tried and it was not possible then they would understand.

I am still trying to get a straight answer like that from the U.S. embassy in Moscow.

The best answer so far, which is incomplete at best is,

"We suggest that you contact the Central Information Unit with the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Moscow, Ul. Novocheremushkinskaya 67(tel. 332-3058) for the information or submit a refusal letter from Georgia consulate."

The first suggestion there raises some interesting questions that I've now asked for clarification about: "If we do make contact

with the Central Information Unit with the Ministry of Internal Affairs (of the Russian Federation?) in Moscow, exactly what

information should we be requesting from them related to the required Georgian police certificate?"

Do you have any idea what they are talking about? What evidence did you have of the attempt to get the police certificate? Have you had a visa interview yet?

My wife's interview was last year. My wife made a special trip to Moscow to visit the German embassy and Kyrgyz embassy to get police certificates. She made some good contacts at both embassies. Turned out to be a near disaster trying to get both police documents. I was sure we were going to have troubles at the interview. A man at the Kyrgyz embassy told my wife he could get it for her on the spot and she waited half the day, but then he said it would take longer and he would be in contact with her. She left to do the same at the German embassy. After returning home and many phone calls the Krygyz embassy said they could not help her. She contacted an uncle in Kyrgyzstan that made three long trips to the capitol to try to get it. First time it was in the wrong name (married name only) second trip they told him they could not help him, and then after my wife made several calls they were willing to issue a new correct one. In the mean time I had e-mailed the US embassy about this problem and their exact response was " keep the interview and bring what you have and a letter explaining the problem".

Also had some problem getting the actual German police certificate and made it through the interview with just a faxed copy from Germany. My step daughter said the official document arrived a few months after my wife traveled here to the US.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Neonred

[Kotenochek 0]

Not sure,but probably is possible to get some paper saying that agency in georgia is not responding.There is no reason to go there,because she will not find that record anyways.Moreover right now flights between russia and georgia are not availible.I had to fly via donetsk and pay 800usd the cheapest option for round trip to get there.

america and georgia are in a good relations so probably thats not a big deal.Also before she got her russian passport they minded her criminal records..all people that change from USSR to Russian passport been checked by russia...

so maybe she could get paper from her ovir saying that for the time of her becoming russian citizen she did not have any criminal record on the territory of the soviet union?Just suggestion..not sure..

[Chris Parker 11]

Not sure,but probably is possible to get some paper saying that agency in georgia is not responding.There is no reason to go there,because she will not find that record anyways.Moreover right now flights between russia and georgia are not availible.I had to fly via donetsk and pay 800usd the cheapest option for round trip to get there.

america and georgia are in a good relations so probably thats not a big deal.Also before she got her russian passport they minded her criminal records..all people that change from USSR to Russian passport been checked by russia...

so maybe she could get paper from her ovir saying that for the time of her becoming russian citizen she did not have any criminal record on the territory of the soviet union?Just suggestion..not sure..

First of all, as I explained before, she got Russian citizenship automatically upon the fall of the Soviet Union based upon her place of legal residence at that time, not by applying for it.

Second, she had been living in Russia 25 years at the time (2003) when they started changing passports from USSR to Russia. The local records in Russia were sufficient if any criminal check had been done.

Third, about the only paper I can think of possibly getting to prove Georgia is not responding is a refusal-to-help letter from the Georgian embassy in Moscow. But of course, in refusing to help, why would they issue a letter for us? I suppose that's a long-shot chance though we might try while in Moscow.

U.S. embassy in Moscow now doesn't have any further advice on this subject other than to ask the U.S. embassy in Georgia about Georgian police certificates. Not sure how they are going to help getting us through NVC or come visa interview time, however ...

Thank you very much for your thoughts & ideas.

[slim 1,525]

Why not just leave it alone?

If you don't bring it up, maybe they won't ask. That was a long time ago, and if all of her papers are good now, who really cares about digging that deep in the past.

You could be stressing a little too much on this one. Seems you've done all you can do.

[Chris Parker 11]

Why not just leave it alone?

If you don't bring it up, maybe they won't ask. That was a long time ago, and if all of her papers are good now, who really cares about digging that deep in the past.

You could be stressing a little too much on this one. Seems you've done all you can do.

So far, that is what I am doing, and DS-230 is currently under review by NVC.

When the NVC RFE comes, or when a 221(g) denial comes after interview, then I will have no choice but to address this issue. I am trying to be as prepared as possible in advance to respond if & when the issue is raised.

[slim 1,525]

The thing about an RFE is it comes with specific instructions, so maybe they'll ask you for a specific form # or "letter of compliance or non-compliance" etc.

That should be a help to you as it will tell you exactly what they're looking for.

Who knows, you may still get off with doing absolutely nothing. (Good luck!!! That's the one I'm hoping for!)