Does Islam allow Muslim men to marry Christian women?

[Caladan 19]

Honestly, I think conflating culture and religion is common to most people who are born to a religion (rather than converting.) There's a lot of things the average Christian believes that might not be official doctrine* but that the person would take as more fundamental to their faith than an actual proscription to the faith. Christmas trees, guardian angels, certain practices about saints, beliefs about limbo, heaven, whatever; most people couldn't be talked out of them by pointing to a couple Biblical passages.

Where it gets complicated is in disentangling the two, and I'm not sure how fruitful this is likely to be outside of philosophical and academic discussions. At the very least, it would take a lot of wok. We might present the OPs mother with a long list of quotes of how Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian women and even present a skillful argument on how trinitarianism affects it. End result is probably still 'but my baby is marrying an American Christian and the sky is falling.'

But I would guess that it's unlikely to be convincing emotionally even if she understands it intellectually. It's easier for converts or scholars because they're approaching it from an outside perspective.

[mybackpages 0]

And why is it OK to make the generalization that Muslims now don't think? Because it doesn't fit into your idea of what is right? People who have come to the conclusion that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men would probably have quite the argument to make that they definitely came to this conclusion after quite a bit of thinking, research, and decision making. You might not agree, but it doesn't mean people aren't thinking.

Noty all generalizations are equal. My understanding of this statement is not based on my feelings or personal experience in the Muslim world. It is based on academic research and study of the Islamic community over centuries.

A generalization is not a fact. There are plenty of exceptions to any generalization. Would you feel better if I called it a hypothesis rather than a generalization?

My hypothesis is that much of what ails the Muslim community as a whole is rooted in the abandoment of quality and inclusive education. Dogma is a much more comfortable fit than critical thinking esp when you aren't educated to question and think. (I am not saying its limited to this region by any means.)

I dont think there is any denying that the state of education in the Muslim world is not of the quailty it could be. And before anyone comes out and complains i am saying somehow a MENA education is inferior, I'm not saying that. The best education in a MENA school is competative with the top program in any other country.

[peezey 0]

Generalization is not a hypothesis. A generalization has been made about an entire group that they don't **think** for themselves - PERIOD. An hypothesis would mean you make a claim, you research and control for things like culture (how many cultures are predominantly muslim? this would be a huge study to undertake to prove such an hypothesis), and then a decision is made if your claim has been proven true (then you'd have a theory). That is not what is being done here, by anyone.

Why play semantics here? rclouse made a generalization that is utterly ridiculous on its face. There is no need to pick through it to find truth. Talk about issues with education and things that Caladan brings up like conflation of culture and religion, but saying that people don't think is undeniably self-serving and ethnocentric - expecting people to think like "we" do.

Edited October 2, 2007 by peezey

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Generalization is not a hypothesis. A generalization has been made about an entire group that they don't **think** for themselves - PERIOD. An hypothesis would mean you make a claim, you research and control for things like culture (how many cultures are predominantly muslim? this would be a huge study to undertake to prove such an hypothesis), and then a decision is made if your claim has been proven true (then you'd have a theory). That is not what is being done here, by anyone.

Why play semantics here? rclouse made a generalization that is utterly ridiculous on its face. There is no need to pick through it to find truth. Talk about issues with education and things that Caladan brings up like conflation of culture and religion, but saying that people don't think is undeniably self-serving and ethnocentric - expecting people to think like "we" do.

It struck me the same way -- as a most insulting generalization.

[Jenn! 918]

"The faith encourages thinking and reason, but dogma has taken over and some Muslims refuse to think or question anything."

Is that better?

The same things could be said for pretty much any faith IMO.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Jenn!

[rclouse 0]

"The faith encourages thinking and reason, but dogma has taken over and some Muslims refuse to think or question anything."

Is that better?

The same things could be said for pretty much any faith IMO.

THIS.

I never meant to say ALL Muslims are unthinking robots. Just a lot, when it comes to matters of faith. I have a lot of questions and I don't get them answered; I'm told to stop thinking and just do it. Sorry, that may be the way you were raised, but not me.

[Jenn! 918]

BTW, Ray, how's the baby doing? He must be getting big!

[mybackpages 0]

Generalization is not a hypothesis. A generalization has been made about an entire group that they don't **think** for themselves - PERIOD. An hypothesis would mean you make a claim, you research and control for things like culture (how many cultures are predominantly muslim? this would be a huge study to undertake to prove such an hypothesis), and then a decision is made if your claim has been proven true (then you'd have a theory). That is not what is being done here, by anyone.

Why play semantics here? rclouse made a generalization that is utterly ridiculous on its face. There is no need to pick through it to find truth. Talk about issues with education and things that Caladan brings up like conflation of culture and religion, but saying that people don't think is undeniably self-serving and ethnocentric - expecting people to think like "we" do.

I dont see reclouse's statement the same way you do obviously. Hd he written this is a scholarly academic work, i would have slamed him for over the top generalization, but with his record on this board, I'll give himt h benefit of the doubt and take a looser more broad interpretation of what he meant. I did not see it as a condemnation of a whole group of people but a common pattern that does exsist. And as a generalization is is not riduculous....if it were said as a matter of fact then it would be absolutely ridiculous.

[Karen_L 1]

Hi. I haven't been around for a *long* while, but I stopped by and saw this discussion and thought it was pretty interesting. I am Catholic and my husband is (Albanian) Muslim. Neither of us are particularly religious; or rather, I'd say we're both more spiritual than we traditionally follow our respective religions. Neither of our families are religious either so basically for us, the religion issue hasn't really caused a problem (at least not yet) in the 3 years we've been together. Neither of our sets of parents had any problem with us marrying. We're getting married in the Catholic Church next year and neither of us is converting to anything. Personally, I don't think I would *EVER* convert to Islam or to any other religion. I might not follow Catholicism very closely, but I like being associated with it. ... Which might not make sense, but that's how I feel. Actually, going through the marriage process in the Catholic Church and seeing how completely open and welcoming the priest was to my husband made me like it more.

I attended Catholic school for my entire life and had the wonderful benefit of really, really great religious education (Catholic theology and World Religions). Having said that, I at no point in my entire life, have ever believed or been made to think that Catholics worship more than one God. For Catholics, there is 1 and only 1 God. Mary is not a god, none of the saints are gods either. One reveres the saints as one might revere a really great role model or something -- they are people to model your actions after, to look to for guidance for how a normal human being can live in God's light. God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, though each aspect has a unique purpose, function and nature. So, I don't really understand this confusion about Catholics being pagans or polytheists -- the idea that Catholics associate "partners" with God is a totally misguided understanding of Catholic theology. That idea totally, completely misrepresents Catholicism (and perhaps Christianity entirely) and, frankly, is ignorant and a ridiculously simplistic understanding of a very complex concept (and religion).

The pagan aspects of Catholicism, of course, DO exist, in the influence of Platonic philosophy and ancient pagan religious holidays on the Catholic landscape. But not in terms of multiple gods. Also, why does Paganism automatically = Bad? I think we can learn a lot from certain ancient pagan religions and I think Catholicism is rich for those influences, actually.

I have watched friends deal with their fiance's family expectations and in my experience, no amount of justification or arguing in the world can change someone's mind about what their son/daughter should and must do. Hopefully the OP's fiance can convince his mother that she has it wrong, but if not, it will come down to him either disobeying her or the OP converting. In any event, I wish the OP the very best and I hope this can be resolved! *hug*

Best,

Karen

[sarah and hicham 3]

Hey Karen!!!

How are you?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'll have to side with the "generalization". Having been born Muslim and raised around them all my life, I do see that a lack of thinking has actually become a badge of honor among Muslims. If you ask a question a long standing fiqh interpretation that is obviously based on circumstances and/or assumptions that do not exist in your world, you are shouted down as a heretic or as "lost". It matters little how much evidence or support you can supply for your position, if you aren't a revered dead scholar or an internet pundit on Islam QA or the like, you have no case.

Jeffery Lang, an American convert to Islam, wrote a book on this very subject called "Losing My Religion" about how the insistance on keeping the status quo no matter how self-destructive is keeping a lot of Muslims in the US from participating in their communities. It's a good read. I can recommend it to those who are "thinking" types.

[Nutty 2]

My fiancee finally told his mom a little about us, after 1.5 years being together. She asked first if I was a Muslim. Now for the third time he is saying he is not coming to USA because he cannot marry a Christian, etc. all the while telling me how much he loves me which is all so crazy to me, and I am definitely close to giving up. My research says it is okay, but wondered your opinions. I think he is overly influenced by his parents, not the facts. Here is some of what I found.

Yes, you can marry without changing your religion, because the holy Qur'an expressly and specifically permits the marriage of a Muslim man to a woman of the Ahl-e-Kitab (people of the Scriptures). The Ahl-e-Kitab is interpreted to mean people of the Jewish or Christian faith. After marriage, it is binding upon the Muslim husband to permit his Christian or Jewish wife to practise her own religion without any hindrance from him whatsoever. On the other hand, the holy Qur'an expressly forbids a Muslim woman from marriage to a non-Muslim man (even if he belongs to the people of Scriptures -- e.g. Christians or Jews).

Generally speaking, the son's parents often prefer to have a Muslim daughter-in-law, mainly for cultural and social considerations -- but not because of religious requirements. This is similar to the practise of parents encouraging their children to marry people with similar racial, linquistic, and social status (such as wealth, nobility, profession, beauty, skin colour and so on). What really matters however, is the good moral character and compatibility of the couple.

Two adults who are able to make their own decisions may do so freely when it comes to choosing a marriage partner, and if they can, they might also try to accommodate the parent's wishes if possible. If it is not possible, then that is too bad. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract made between two consenting parties out of their own free will.

Muslim men can marry outside of their faith. To women who also have a montheistic faith. That is believing in one god versus a pantheon of gods or spirits.

However, the issue really comes down to culture, family and attitude.

One thing you must know, muslim families are close. It's all about group harmony and pleasing the parents. So when it comes to issues of marriage, it isn't a private affair between you and your sweetie. It's about what's good for all.

If the parents are old fashioned, they may act as match makers. Ensuring the new bride is muslim and "fits in with the family."

In my case, I married an Iranian. However, his family never questioned or disliked me. They loved my and accept me totally (a christian).

I have Indian muslim friends and they say their parents would never tolerate their sons marrying outside their religion and even outside of the region they live (Kashmir).

[sandinista! 1,816]

I'll have to side with the "generalization". Having been born Muslim and raised around them all my life, I do see that a lack of thinking has actually become a badge of honor among Muslims. If you ask a question a long standing fiqh interpretation that is obviously based on circumstances and/or assumptions that do not exist in your world, you are shouted down as a heretic or as "lost". It matters little how much evidence or support you can supply for your position, if you aren't a revered dead scholar or an internet pundit on Islam QA or the like, you have no case.

Jeffery Lang, an American convert to Islam, wrote a book on this very subject called "Losing My Religion" about how the insistance on keeping the status quo no matter how self-destructive is keeping a lot of Muslims in the US from participating in their communities. It's a good read. I can recommend it to those who are "thinking" types.

in your experiences. others have conflicting experiences that render that generalization null and void. which is why some people consider generalizations to be useless, and of inflicting more harm than good.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

in your experiences. others have conflicting experiences that render that generalization null and void. which is why some people consider generalizations to be useless, and of inflicting more harm than good.

Experiences vary in relevance and quality, too. If one's experience with Muslims and Islamic practice is relatively short and shallow, and not dealing much with substantive religious ideology, and/or you don't know much about it yourself, your experience doesn't have the quality of someone who has. So, not all experience is relative or equal.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[doodlebug 3]

Honestly, I think conflating culture and religion is common to most people who are born to a religion (rather than converting.) There's a lot of things the average Christian believes that might not be official doctrine* but that the person would take as more fundamental to their faith than an actual proscription to the faith. Christmas trees, guardian angels, certain practices about saints, beliefs about limbo, heaven, whatever; most people couldn't be talked out of them by pointing to a couple Biblical passages.

Where it gets complicated is in disentangling the two, and I'm not sure how fruitful this is likely to be outside of philosophical and academic discussions. At the very least, it would take a lot of wok. We might present the OPs mother with a long list of quotes of how Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian women and even present a skillful argument on how trinitarianism affects it. End result is probably still 'but my baby is marrying an American Christian and the sky is falling.'

But I would guess that it's unlikely to be convincing emotionally even if she understands it intellectually. It's easier for converts or scholars because they're approaching it from an outside perspective.

I just tried to say conflating culture ten times fast and I'm