Laura Mansfield American Arabic Translator

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I cannot possibly think our occupation is more shameful than what Saadam did over a 20 year plus period funding terrorism and gassing kurds.

Your Algerian SO agrees with this point of view?

No he does not. But I don't agree with everything he thinks either. We do agree on one thing. Al Qaeda is not based in Algeria and not funded by Algeria and so you have to conclude that AL QAEDA wants a foothold somewhere and are having a hard time finding somewhere to settle. Its hard to actually live in the fear versus witness it. He was in the army at the height of the war 1995 2000 so he saw his fair share of beheadings and roadside attacks.

[sandinista! 1,816]

you two have stocked the thread so full of them, it'd be more like shooting fish in a barrel.

still gotta talk about killing something eh?

Notice the cards say GENEVA CONVENTION. Too bad none of the insurgants apparently follow the GENEVA CONVENTION. So much easier to blow up a school bus or slice a reporters throat or kill a couple of translators.

Even more shameful is when a legitimate government like ours picks and chooses when it wants to follow the geneva convention

I cannot possibly think our occupation is more shameful than what Saadam did over a 20 year plus period funding terrorism and gassing kurds.

You mean with or without US support? Like when the US convinved the Kurds to attack and promised we would follow in with military support and wen we didnt Hussein uses chemical wepons on the Kurds that were supplied to Iraq by US?

oh yeah, it's our fault that saddam did that

but it was totally cool with you for saddam to use them on iranians? oh i forgot, they're not actually human...

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

The crimes of Saadam Hussein

Reprisal Against Dujail

On July 8, 1982, Saddam Hussein was visiting the town of Dujail (50 miles north of Baghdad) when a group of Dawa militants shot at his motorcade. In reprisal for this assassination attempt, the entire town was punished.

More than 140 fighting-age men were apprehended and never heard from again. Approximately 1,500 other townspeople, including children, were rounded up and taken to prison, where many were tortured. After a year or more in prison, many were exiled to a southern desert camp. The town itself was destroyed; houses were bulldozed and orchards were demolished.

Though Saddam's reprisal against Dujail is considered one of his lesser-known crimes, it has been chosen as the first for which he will be tried.

Anfal Campaign

Officially from February 23 to September 6, 1988 (but often thought to extend from March 1987 to May 1989), Saddam Hussein's regime carried out the Anfal (Arabic for "spoils") campaign against the large Kurdish population in northern Iraq. The purpose of the campaign was ostensibly to reassert Iraqi control over the area; however, the real goal was to permanently eliminate the Kurdish problem.

The campaign consisted of eight stages of assault, where up to 200,000 Iraqi troops attacked the area, rounded up civilians, and razed villages. Once rounded up, the civilians were divided into two groups: men from ages of about 13 to 70 and women, children, and elderly men. The men were then shot and buried in mass graves. The women, children, and elderly were taken to relocation camps where conditions were deplorable. In a few areas, especially areas that put up even a little resistance, everyone was killed.

Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled the area, yet it is estimated that up to 182,000 were killed during the Anfal campaign. Many people consider the Anfal campaign an attempt at genocide.

Chemical Weapons Against Kurds

As early as April 1987, the Iraqis used chemical weapons to remove Kurds from their villages in northern Iraq during the Anfal campaign. It is estimated that chemical weapons were used on approximately 40 Kurdish villages, with the largest of these attacks occurring on March 16, 1988 against the Kurdish town of Halabja.

Beginning in the morning on March 16, 1988 and continuing all night, the Iraqis rained down volley after volley of bombs filled with a deadly mixture of mustard gas and nerve agents on Halabja. Immediate effects of the chemicals included blindness, vomiting, blisters, convulsions, and asphyxiation. Approximately 5,000 women, men, and children died within days of the attacks. Long-term effects included permanent blindness, cancer, and birth defects. An estimated 10,000 lived, but live daily with the disfigurement and sicknesses from the chemical weapons.

Saddam Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid was directly in charge of the chemical attacks against the Kurds, earning him the epithet, "Chemical Ali."

Invasion of Kuwait

On August 2, 1990, Iraqi troops invaded the country of Kuwait. The invasion was induced by oil and a large war debt that Iraq owed Kuwait. The six-week, Persian Gulf War pushed Iraqi troops out of Kuwait in 1991. As the Iraqi troops retreated, they were ordered to light oil wells on fire. Over 700 oil wells were lit, burning over one billion barrels of oil and releasing dangerous pollutants into the air. Oil pipelines were also opened, releasing 10 million barrels of oil into the Gulf and tainting many water sources. The fires and the oil spill created a huge environmental disaster.

Shiite Uprising & the Marsh Arabs

At the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, southern Shiites and northern Kurds rebelled against Hussein's regime. In retaliation, Iraq brutally suppressed the uprising, killing thousands of Shiites in southern Iraq.

As supposed punishment for supporting the Shiite rebellion in 1991, Saddam Hussein's regime killed thousands of Marsh Arabs, bulldozed their villages, and systematically ruined their way of life. The Marsh Arabs had lived for thousands of years in the marshlands located in southern Iraq until Iraq built a network of canals, dykes, and dams to divert water away from the marshes. The Marsh Arabs were forced to flee the area, their way of life decimated.

By 2002, satellite images showed only 7 to 10 percent of the marshlands left. Saddam Hussein is blamed for creating an environmental disaster.

[mybackpages 0]

I cannot possibly think our occupation is more shameful than what Saadam did over a 20 year plus period funding terrorism and gassing kurds.

Your Algerian SO agrees with this point of view?

No he does not. But I don't agree with everything he thinks either. We do agree on one thing. Al Qaeda is not based in Algeria and not funded by Algeria and so you have to conclude that AL QAEDA wants a foothold somewhere and are having a hard time finding somewhere to settle. Its hard to actually live in the fear versus witness it. He was in the army at the height of the war 1995 2000 so he saw his fair share of beheadings and roadside attacks.

It's not about agreeing on the particular issue. its about agreeing on the basic core values behind certain political postiions. Sounds like that is where the gap between the two of you might exisit.

Edited September 23, 2007 by mybackpages

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I think each couple has the things that bring them closer. I love the fact he is different than me . I talk to him at great length about history and politics. We have a different belief about Judaism and the contributions of Jews to the world. We have several differences but our similarities outweigh our differences. I am not anti semitic in the least. That comes up alot.

[JODO 2]

I think each couple has the things that bring them closer. I love the fact he is different than me . I talk to him at great length about history and politics. We have a different belief about Judaism and the contributions of Jews to the world. We have several differences but our similarities outweigh our differences. I am not anti semitic in the least. That comes up alot.

So is your husband anti-Semitic?

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I think each couple has the things that bring them closer. I love the fact he is different than me . I talk to him at great length about history and politics. We have a different belief about Judaism and the contributions of Jews to the world. We have several differences but our similarities outweigh our differences. I am not anti semitic in the least. That comes up alot.

So is your husband anti-Semitic?

not really... I just am more interested in some things than he is... we grew up different.But I always say what I think even if its completely opposite of what he thinks

[sandinista! 1,816]

The crimes of Saadam Hussein

Reprisal Against Dujail

On July 8, 1982, Saddam Hussein was visiting the town of Dujail (50 miles north of Baghdad) when a group of Dawa militants shot at his motorcade. In reprisal for this assassination attempt, the entire town was punished.

More than 140 fighting-age men were apprehended and never heard from again. Approximately 1,500 other townspeople, including children, were rounded up and taken to prison, where many were tortured. After a year or more in prison, many were exiled to a southern desert camp. The town itself was destroyed; houses were bulldozed and orchards were demolished.

Though Saddam's reprisal against Dujail is considered one of his lesser-known crimes, it has been chosen as the first for which he will be tried.

Anfal Campaign

Officially from February 23 to September 6, 1988 (but often thought to extend from March 1987 to May 1989), Saddam Hussein's regime carried out the Anfal (Arabic for "spoils") campaign against the large Kurdish population in northern Iraq. The purpose of the campaign was ostensibly to reassert Iraqi control over the area; however, the real goal was to permanently eliminate the Kurdish problem.

The campaign consisted of eight stages of assault, where up to 200,000 Iraqi troops attacked the area, rounded up civilians, and razed villages. Once rounded up, the civilians were divided into two groups: men from ages of about 13 to 70 and women, children, and elderly men. The men were then shot and buried in mass graves. The women, children, and elderly were taken to relocation camps where conditions were deplorable. In a few areas, especially areas that put up even a little resistance, everyone was killed.

Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled the area, yet it is estimated that up to 182,000 were killed during the Anfal campaign. Many people consider the Anfal campaign an attempt at genocide.

Chemical Weapons Against Kurds

As early as April 1987, the Iraqis used chemical weapons to remove Kurds from their villages in northern Iraq during the Anfal campaign. It is estimated that chemical weapons were used on approximately 40 Kurdish villages, with the largest of these attacks occurring on March 16, 1988 against the Kurdish town of Halabja.

Beginning in the morning on March 16, 1988 and continuing all night, the Iraqis rained down volley after volley of bombs filled with a deadly mixture of mustard gas and nerve agents on Halabja. Immediate effects of the chemicals included blindness, vomiting, blisters, convulsions, and asphyxiation. Approximately 5,000 women, men, and children died within days of the attacks. Long-term effects included permanent blindness, cancer, and birth defects. An estimated 10,000 lived, but live daily with the disfigurement and sicknesses from the chemical weapons.

Saddam Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid was directly in charge of the chemical attacks against the Kurds, earning him the epithet, "Chemical Ali."

Invasion of Kuwait

On August 2, 1990, Iraqi troops invaded the country of Kuwait. The invasion was induced by oil and a large war debt that Iraq owed Kuwait. The six-week, Persian Gulf War pushed Iraqi troops out of Kuwait in 1991. As the Iraqi troops retreated, they were ordered to light oil wells on fire. Over 700 oil wells were lit, burning over one billion barrels of oil and releasing dangerous pollutants into the air. Oil pipelines were also opened, releasing 10 million barrels of oil into the Gulf and tainting many water sources. The fires and the oil spill created a huge environmental disaster.

Shiite Uprising & the Marsh Arabs

At the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, southern Shiites and northern Kurds rebelled against Hussein's regime. In retaliation, Iraq brutally suppressed the uprising, killing thousands of Shiites in southern Iraq.

As supposed punishment for supporting the Shiite rebellion in 1991, Saddam Hussein's regime killed thousands of Marsh Arabs, bulldozed their villages, and systematically ruined their way of life. The Marsh Arabs had lived for thousands of years in the marshlands located in southern Iraq until Iraq built a network of canals, dykes, and dams to divert water away from the marshes. The Marsh Arabs were forced to flee the area, their way of life decimated.

By 2002, satellite images showed only 7 to 10 percent of the marshlands left. Saddam Hussein is blamed for creating an environmental disaster.

so freaking what! 4 million congolese dead in 6 years trumps that. where was yr burning desire to interfere in that? 4 people die of TB every minute in this world. are you pushing your government to do anything about that either, oh great humanitarian?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The crimes of Saadam Hussein

Reprisal Against Dujail

On July 8, 1982, Saddam Hussein was visiting the town of Dujail (50 miles north of Baghdad) when a group of Dawa militants shot at his motorcade. In reprisal for this assassination attempt, the entire town was punished.

More than 140 fighting-age men were apprehended and never heard from again. Approximately 1,500 other townspeople, including children, were rounded up and taken to prison, where many were tortured. After a year or more in prison, many were exiled to a southern desert camp. The town itself was destroyed; houses were bulldozed and orchards were demolished.

Though Saddam's reprisal against Dujail is considered one of his lesser-known crimes, it has been chosen as the first for which he will be tried.

Anfal Campaign

Officially from February 23 to September 6, 1988 (but often thought to extend from March 1987 to May 1989), Saddam Hussein's regime carried out the Anfal (Arabic for "spoils") campaign against the large Kurdish population in northern Iraq. The purpose of the campaign was ostensibly to reassert Iraqi control over the area; however, the real goal was to permanently eliminate the Kurdish problem.

The campaign consisted of eight stages of assault, where up to 200,000 Iraqi troops attacked the area, rounded up civilians, and razed villages. Once rounded up, the civilians were divided into two groups: men from ages of about 13 to 70 and women, children, and elderly men. The men were then shot and buried in mass graves. The women, children, and elderly were taken to relocation camps where conditions were deplorable. In a few areas, especially areas that put up even a little resistance, everyone was killed.

Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled the area, yet it is estimated that up to 182,000 were killed during the Anfal campaign. Many people consider the Anfal campaign an attempt at genocide.

Chemical Weapons Against Kurds

As early as April 1987, the Iraqis used chemical weapons to remove Kurds from their villages in northern Iraq during the Anfal campaign. It is estimated that chemical weapons were used on approximately 40 Kurdish villages, with the largest of these attacks occurring on March 16, 1988 against the Kurdish town of Halabja.

Beginning in the morning on March 16, 1988 and continuing all night, the Iraqis rained down volley after volley of bombs filled with a deadly mixture of mustard gas and nerve agents on Halabja. Immediate effects of the chemicals included blindness, vomiting, blisters, convulsions, and asphyxiation. Approximately 5,000 women, men, and children died within days of the attacks. Long-term effects included permanent blindness, cancer, and birth defects. An estimated 10,000 lived, but live daily with the disfigurement and sicknesses from the chemical weapons.

Saddam Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid was directly in charge of the chemical attacks against the Kurds, earning him the epithet, "Chemical Ali."

Invasion of Kuwait

On August 2, 1990, Iraqi troops invaded the country of Kuwait. The invasion was induced by oil and a large war debt that Iraq owed Kuwait. The six-week, Persian Gulf War pushed Iraqi troops out of Kuwait in 1991. As the Iraqi troops retreated, they were ordered to light oil wells on fire. Over 700 oil wells were lit, burning over one billion barrels of oil and releasing dangerous pollutants into the air. Oil pipelines were also opened, releasing 10 million barrels of oil into the Gulf and tainting many water sources. The fires and the oil spill created a huge environmental disaster.

Shiite Uprising & the Marsh Arabs

At the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, southern Shiites and northern Kurds rebelled against Hussein's regime. In retaliation, Iraq brutally suppressed the uprising, killing thousands of Shiites in southern Iraq.

As supposed punishment for supporting the Shiite rebellion in 1991, Saddam Hussein's regime killed thousands of Marsh Arabs, bulldozed their villages, and systematically ruined their way of life. The Marsh Arabs had lived for thousands of years in the marshlands located in southern Iraq until Iraq built a network of canals, dykes, and dams to divert water away from the marshes. The Marsh Arabs were forced to flee the area, their way of life decimated.

By 2002, satellite images showed only 7 to 10 percent of the marshlands left. Saddam Hussein is blamed for creating an environmental disaster.

[mybackpages 0]

Thanks God- another voice of reason.

[Ban Hammer 13,669]

you two have stocked the thread so full of them, it'd be more like shooting fish in a barrel.

still gotta talk about killing something eh?

Notice the cards say GENEVA CONVENTION. Too bad none of the insurgants apparently follow the GENEVA CONVENTION. So much easier to blow up a school bus or slice a reporters throat or kill a couple of translators.

Even more shameful is when a legitimate government like ours picks and chooses when it wants to follow the geneva convention

I cannot possibly think our occupation is more shameful than what Saadam did over a 20 year plus period funding terrorism and gassing kurds.

You mean with or without US support? Like when the US convinved the Kurds to attack and promised we would follow in with military support and wen we didnt Hussein uses chemical wepons on the Kurds that were supplied to Iraq by US?

oh yeah, it's our fault that saddam did that

but it was totally cool with you for saddam to use them on iranians? oh i forgot, they're not actually human...

your words, not mine

[jpaula 20]

I cannot possibly think our occupation is more shameful than what Saadam did over a 20 year plus period funding terrorism and gassing kurds.

Your Algerian SO agrees with this point of view?

No he does not. But I don't agree with everything he thinks either. We do agree on one thing. Al Qaeda is not based in Algeria and not funded by Algeria and so you have to conclude that AL QAEDA wants a foothold somewhere and are having a hard time finding somewhere to settle. Its hard to actually live in the fear versus witness it. He was in the army at the height of the war 1995 2000 so he saw his fair share of beheadings and roadside attacks.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I cannot possibly think our occupation is more shameful than what Saadam did over a 20 year plus period funding terrorism and gassing kurds.

Your Algerian SO agrees with this point of view?

No he does not. But I don't agree with everything he thinks either. We do agree on one thing. Al Qaeda is not based in Algeria and not funded by Algeria and so you have to conclude that AL QAEDA wants a foothold somewhere and are having a hard time finding somewhere to settle. Its hard to actually live in the fear versus witness it. He was in the army at the height of the war 1995 2000 so he saw his fair share of beheadings and roadside attacks.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

I think all you need to do is google news ALGERIA and look at who has been perpetrating terrorism there. I dont think the 17 year old who bombed the parliament was helped by Algerians to do it. Its outside money and outside funding. AL Qaeda killed 3 foreigners in Algeria 2 days ago who were building a dam and posted the video. AL Qaeda also claimed responsibility for the killings of 15 people in Batna last week and is broadcasting videos as Al Qaeda in the magreb with bin ladens face all over the place. You can hardly say that Algerians are behind all of this. Its overseas interferance and overseas money . Algerians themselves want an end to terrorism. Others seem to be very interested in perpetuating the hell there. Itsnot homegrown anymore. Its outside people who want to make others lives hell.

[jpaula 20]

I cannot possibly think our occupation is more shameful than what Saadam did over a 20 year plus period funding terrorism and gassing kurds.

Your Algerian SO agrees with this point of view?

No he does not. But I don't agree with everything he thinks either. We do agree on one thing. Al Qaeda is not based in Algeria and not funded by Algeria and so you have to conclude that AL QAEDA wants a foothold somewhere and are having a hard time finding somewhere to settle. Its hard to actually live in the fear versus witness it. He was in the army at the height of the war 1995 2000 so he saw his fair share of beheadings and roadside attacks.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

I think all you need to do is google news ALGERIA and look at who has been perpetrating terrorism there. I dont think the 17 year old who bombed the parliament was helped by Algerians to do it. Its outside money and outside funding. AL Qaeda killed 3 foreigners in Algeria 2 days ago who were building a dam and posted the video. AL Qaeda also claimed responsibility for the killings of 15 people in Batna last week and is broadcasting videos as Al Qaeda in the magreb with bin ladens face all over the place. You can hardly say that Algerians are behind all of this. Its overseas interferance and overseas money . Algerians themselves want an end to terrorism. Others seem to be very interested in perpetuating the hell there. Itsnot homegrown anymore. Its outside people who want to make others lives hell.

The GSPC is an Algerian group with a long difficult history with Al Qaeda. At the height of the civil war, Al Qaeda actually withdrew support for them (and their predecessors) for their attacks on Muslim civilians. They now claim to be part of Al Qaeda, but their roots are not foreign. The notion that terrorism is new to Algeria is absurd enough that I do no think that can be what you mean. The 17 year old who bombed the Prime Minister's office was Algerian. As was the 15 year old who bombed the Coast Guard station this month. As are the many who explode artisinal bombs in Algeria every week, making it common enough to not make international news. I would guess those who injured (none were killed) the French Italian and Algerians involved in damn building were as well. Some things have changed since this new al Qaeda allegiance and they are indeed scary. Attacking government targets, suicide bombings and increased strength do not bode well. But, it does not take too much scratching below the rhetoric to know that there is enough Algerian involvement in these acts to label them as local as they may be not.

I think we agree that the worst possible thing for Algeria right now is to have what was a small remnant of a horrible recent past become part of an increasingly brutal global fight. But, I know from listening to too many Algerians, that this "it is outsiders" is a common refrain. I don't think the reality is quite so simple.

I go into this now only becuase I think it is a good illustration of the complexity of some of these issues--a complexity that demands some intellectual honesty and rigor if we really want to understand any of it. There is no doubt a threat to us and to many others in this world, especially in the Muslim world, from radical violent factions. But, misplaced hysteria like that perpetuated by Ms. Mansfield does not accurately identify that threat and thus does not help diffuse it. Nor does the misplaced hysteria that encouraged (tricked?) too many to believe Saadam a threat to us.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I cannot possibly think our occupation is more shameful than what Saadam did over a 20 year plus period funding terrorism and gassing kurds.

Your Algerian SO agrees with this point of view?

No he does not. But I don't agree with everything he thinks either. We do agree on one thing. Al Qaeda is not based in Algeria and not funded by Algeria and so you have to conclude that AL QAEDA wants a foothold somewhere and are having a hard time finding somewhere to settle. Its hard to actually live in the fear versus witness it. He was in the army at the height of the war 1995 2000 so he saw his fair share of beheadings and roadside attacks.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

I think all you need to do is google news ALGERIA and look at who has been perpetrating terrorism there. I dont think the 17 year old who bombed the parliament was helped by Algerians to do it. Its outside money and outside funding. AL Qaeda killed 3 foreigners in Algeria 2 days ago who were building a dam and posted the video. AL Qaeda also claimed responsibility for the killings of 15 people in Batna last week and is broadcasting videos as Al Qaeda in the magreb with bin ladens face all over the place. You can hardly say that Algerians are behind all of this. Its overseas interferance and overseas money . Algerians themselves want an end to terrorism. Others seem to be very interested in perpetuating the hell there. Itsnot homegrown anymore. Its outside people who want to make others lives hell.

The GSPC is an Algerian group with a long difficult history with Al Qaeda. At the height of the civil war, Al Qaeda actually withdrew support for them (and their predecessors) for their attacks on Muslim civilians. They now claim to be part of Al Qaeda, but their roots are not foreign. The notion that terrorism is new to Algeria is absurd enough that I do no think that can be what you mean. The 17 year old who bombed the Prime Minister's office was Algerian. As was the 15 year old who bombed the Coast Guard station this month. As are the many who explode artisinal bombs in Algeria every week, making it common enough to not make international news. I would guess those who injured (none were killed) the French Italian and Algerians involved in damn building were as well. Some things have changed since this new al Qaeda allegiance and they are indeed scary. Attacking government targets, suicide bombings and increased strength do not bode well. But, it does not take too much scratching below the rhetoric to know that there is enough Algerian involvement in these acts to label them as local as they may be not.

I think we agree that the worst possible thing for Algeria right now is to have what was a small remnant of a horrible recent past become part of an increasingly brutal global fight. But, I know from listening to too many Algerians, that this "it is outsiders" is a common refrain. I don't think the reality is quite so simple.

I go into this now only becuase I think it is a good illustration of the complexity of some of these issues--a complexity that demands some intellectual honesty and rigor if we really want to understand any of it. There is no doubt a threat to us and to many others in this world, especially in the Muslim world, from radical violent factions. But, misplaced hysteria like that perpetuated by Ms. Mansfield does not accurately identify that threat and thus does not help diffuse it. Nor does the misplaced hysteria that encouraged (tricked?) too many to believe Saadam a threat to us.

Interesting video talking about the impact of foreigners in the Magreb and al qaedas threat

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