RFE: Circumstance of Meeting

[Amarach 0]

Make sure the basics get covered very clearly. There is no substitute for actual clear primary evidence of meeting. Words don't substitute for evidence.

Absolutely connect the dots for them. Make it like girl's skirt. Short enough to make it interesting but long enough to cover the subject.

An outline like many of the signatures on this site?

Met: June 2005

Location: Vicenza, Italy

Became friends and penpals. Played games on line together with other friends.

Second meeting: Belgium July & August 2005

Explored Belgium with 4 other friends.

Returned back to Italy and continued talking.

End of August 2005: Discuss possibly meeting on our own and dating.

Sept 2005: Fly to Belgium and meet for third time? Started Dating.

How far should I keep going? Also at this point I was married to my best friend. We had a child together and divorcing would have sent me and my daughter back stateside. So we lived as room mates and I slept in my daughters room. My daughter's father and my fiance are friends and everyone gets along. I did not get divorced until we moved back stateside. But how well they see this

Tom and I included everything but the recently found Boarding Passes in our original petition but I didn't get into details about our original courtship. So I've added the plane boarding passes, a phone bill, and a Visitor's pass from when Tom visited us in Italy in May, 2006 and about ten more photos.

Adriane

[pushbrk 12,884]

Make sure the basics get covered very clearly. There is no substitute for actual clear primary evidence of meeting. Words don't substitute for evidence.

Absolutely connect the dots for them. Make it like girl's skirt. Short enough to make it interesting but long enough to cover the subject.

An outline like many of the signatures on this site?

Met: June 2005

Location: Vicenza, Italy

Became friends and penpals. Played games on line together with other friends.

Second meeting: Belgium July & August 2005

Explored Belgium with 4 other friends.

Returned back to Italy and continued talking.

End of August 2005: Discuss possibly meeting on our own and dating.

Sept 2005: Fly to Belgium and meet for third time? Started Dating.

How far should I keep going? Also at this point I was married to my best friend. We had a child together and divorcing would have sent me and my daughter back stateside. So we lived as room mates and I slept in my daughters room. My daughter's father and my fiance are friends and everyone gets along. I did not get divorced until we moved back stateside. But how well they see this

Tom and I included everything but the recently found Boarding Passes in our original petition but I didn't get into details about our original courtship. So I've added the plane boarding passes, a phone bill, and a Visitor's pass from when Tom visited us in Italy in May, 2006 and about ten more photos.

Adriane

Oh! Now you've just shed light on the probably reason for the RFE. What probably got them looking closer and wanting an explanation is that you and your "fiance" met when you were still married. USCIS is likely to accept an explanation like you gave in your "Also at this point...." paragraph but you can leave out the also and add maybe another sentence or two of facts, as appropriate.

Germany is not a high fraud country, so maybe you won't have too much problem convincing a Consular officer that your current relationship is bona fide, that it is not something you, your then husband and your mutual friend cooked up to get the mutual friend a green card. Sometimes they start suspecting things like this when divorces are close to the filing time. When you add that you and your husband both knew the guy and were friends, they've really got to look into it further. Since your relationship actually overlapped your marriage, even more complications could arise.

Later, you'll want to be prepared to show evidence that you and your former husband have separate domiciles in the US, like utility bills in both names at separate addresses, etc.

I know this stuff is highly personal but we were probably just shooting in the dark trying to advise you until you let us in on the real issue.

[athena_ny 1]

I don't see why the lease would be an issue, really. If he was on the lease because he was going to be staying w/ you for an extended period of time it's not like he did anything wrong, but you may want to consult an immigration attorney about that if no one here knows for sure.

[pushbrk 12,884]

I don't see why the lease would be an issue, really. If he was on the lease because he was going to be staying w/ you for an extended period of time it's not like he did anything wrong, but you may want to consult an immigration attorney about that if no one here knows for sure.

I don't know that the lease would be an issue either but I wouldn't mention it if you have boarding passes as primary evidence of meeting within the past two years. I don't really think the evidence of meeting was the real or at least not the only issue. You mentioned circumstances and now I think that was at least half the concern if not more.

[rebeccajo 14]

Make sure the basics get covered very clearly. There is no substitute for actual clear primary evidence of meeting. Words don't substitute for evidence.

Absolutely connect the dots for them. Make it like girl's skirt. Short enough to make it interesting but long enough to cover the subject.

An outline like many of the signatures on this site?

Met: June 2005

Location: Vicenza, Italy

Became friends and penpals. Played games on line together with other friends.

Second meeting: Belgium July & August 2005

Explored Belgium with 4 other friends.

Returned back to Italy and continued talking.

End of August 2005: Discuss possibly meeting on our own and dating.

Sept 2005: Fly to Belgium and meet for third time? Started Dating.

How far should I keep going? Also at this point I was married to my best friend. We had a child together and divorcing would have sent me and my daughter back stateside. So we lived as room mates and I slept in my daughters room. My daughter's father and my fiance are friends and everyone gets along. I did not get divorced until we moved back stateside. But how well they see this

Tom and I included everything but the recently found Boarding Passes in our original petition but I didn't get into details about our original courtship. So I've added the plane boarding passes, a phone bill, and a Visitor's pass from when Tom visited us in Italy in May, 2006 and about ten more photos.

Adriane

Oh! Now you've just shed light on the probably reason for the RFE. What probably got them looking closer and wanting an explanation is that you and your "fiance" met when you were still married. USCIS is likely to accept an explanation like you gave in your "Also at this point...." paragraph but you can leave out the also and add maybe another sentence or two of facts, as appropriate.

Germany is not a high fraud country, so maybe you won't have too much problem convincing a Consular officer that your current relationship is bona fide, that it is not something you, your then husband and your mutual friend cooked up to get the mutual friend a green card. Sometimes they start suspecting things like this when divorces are close to the filing time. When you add that you and your husband both knew the guy and were friends, they've really got to look into it further. Since your relationship actually overlapped your marriage, even more complications could arise.

Later, you'll want to be prepared to show evidence that you and your former husband have separate domiciles in the US, like utility bills in both names at separate addresses, etc.

I know this stuff is highly personal but we were probably just shooting in the dark trying to advise you until you let us in on the real issue.

*wrinkles nose*

I don't think the OP's relationship beginning prior to the official end of her marriage has anything to do with this RFE.

The adjudicators at the service center don't make the judgments on marriage fraud nor do they get into the bonafides. They are only interested in ticking the box on their checklist where the petitioner has proven they have seen their fiance' within the last two years.

Now, at the interview stage, at a high fraud post, having met prior to a divorce MIGHT be an issue. But I seriously doubt it's a problem now.

I met my husband prior to my divorce. I clearly stated the date we met in my explanation and (should anyone have cared to look) it was abundantly clear my divorce was not final until several months later.

[pushbrk 12,884]

Make sure the basics get covered very clearly. There is no substitute for actual clear primary evidence of meeting. Words don't substitute for evidence.

Absolutely connect the dots for them. Make it like girl's skirt. Short enough to make it interesting but long enough to cover the subject.

An outline like many of the signatures on this site?

Met: June 2005

Location: Vicenza, Italy

Became friends and penpals. Played games on line together with other friends.

Second meeting: Belgium July & August 2005

Explored Belgium with 4 other friends.

Returned back to Italy and continued talking.

End of August 2005: Discuss possibly meeting on our own and dating.

Sept 2005: Fly to Belgium and meet for third time? Started Dating.

How far should I keep going? Also at this point I was married to my best friend. We had a child together and divorcing would have sent me and my daughter back stateside. So we lived as room mates and I slept in my daughters room. My daughter's father and my fiance are friends and everyone gets along. I did not get divorced until we moved back stateside. But how well they see this

Tom and I included everything but the recently found Boarding Passes in our original petition but I didn't get into details about our original courtship. So I've added the plane boarding passes, a phone bill, and a Visitor's pass from when Tom visited us in Italy in May, 2006 and about ten more photos.

Adriane

Oh! Now you've just shed light on the probably reason for the RFE. What probably got them looking closer and wanting an explanation is that you and your "fiance" met when you were still married. USCIS is likely to accept an explanation like you gave in your "Also at this point...." paragraph but you can leave out the also and add maybe another sentence or two of facts, as appropriate.

Germany is not a high fraud country, so maybe you won't have too much problem convincing a Consular officer that your current relationship is bona fide, that it is not something you, your then husband and your mutual friend cooked up to get the mutual friend a green card. Sometimes they start suspecting things like this when divorces are close to the filing time. When you add that you and your husband both knew the guy and were friends, they've really got to look into it further. Since your relationship actually overlapped your marriage, even more complications could arise.

Later, you'll want to be prepared to show evidence that you and your former husband have separate domiciles in the US, like utility bills in both names at separate addresses, etc.

I know this stuff is highly personal but we were probably just shooting in the dark trying to advise you until you let us in on the real issue.

*wrinkles nose*

I don't think the OP's relationship beginning prior to the official end of her marriage has anything to do with this RFE.

The adjudicators at the service center don't make the judgments on marriage fraud nor do they get into the bonafides. They are only interested in ticking the box on their checklist where the petitioner has proven they have seen their fiance' within the last two years.

Now, at the interview stage, at a high fraud post, having met prior to a divorce MIGHT be an issue. But I seriously doubt it's a problem now.

I met my husband prior to my divorce. I clearly stated the date we met in my explanation and (should anyone have cared to look) it was abundantly clear my divorce was not final until several months later.

In general, I agree completely. This is a little different case though than simply meeting before the divorce was final. She still lived with her husband abroad and continued to do so while all parties are friendly. It could have nothing to do with the RFE. We just don't know how they looked at the evidence sent. In some ways, it sounds like there was a shortage of primary evidence as well as a difficulty in sorting out what they were sent. USCIS does inspect the dates on documents though and may simply have become confused by the overlaps and sketchy evidence.

[no name 1]

An outline like many of the signatures on this site?

Met: June 2005 in Vicenza, Italy

Became friends and penpals. Played games on line together with other friends.

Second meeting: July & August 2005 in Belgium

Explored Belgium with 4 other friends.

Returned back to Italy and continued talking.

End of August 2005: Discuss possibly meeting on our own and dating.

Sept 2005: Fly to Belgium and meet for third time? Started Dating.

How far should I keep going? Also at this point I was married to my best friend. We had a child together and divorcing would have sent me and my daughter back stateside. So we lived as room mates and I slept in my daughters room. My daughter's father and my fiance are friends and everyone gets along. I did not get divorced until we moved back stateside. But how well they see this

Tom and I included everything but the recently found Boarding Passes in our original petition but I didn't get into details about our original courtship. So I've added the plane boarding passes, a phone bill, and a Visitor's pass from when Tom visited us in Italy in May, 2006 and about ten more photos.

Adriane

Still too wordy. See my changes above. They want to know you met in the last 2 years. Send pics, boarding passes,etc. If you're worried about the lease, don't send it. Pics of your daughter is not about you & him meeting, at all. It could be any girl.

And don;t mention the hubby, sounds confusing & weird.

[Amarach 0]

An outline like many of the signatures on this site?

Met: June 2005 in Vicenza, Italy

Became friends and penpals. Played games on line together with other friends.

Second meeting: July & August 2005 in Belgium

Explored Belgium with 4 other friends.

Returned back to Italy and continued talking.

End of August 2005: Discuss possibly meeting on our own and dating.

Sept 2005: Fly to Belgium and meet for third time? Started Dating.

How far should I keep going? Also at this point I was married to my best friend. We had a child together and divorcing would have sent me and my daughter back stateside. So we lived as room mates and I slept in my daughters room. My daughter's father and my fiance are friends and everyone gets along. I did not get divorced until we moved back stateside. But how well they see this

Tom and I included everything but the recently found Boarding Passes in our original petition but I didn't get into details about our original courtship. So I've added the plane boarding passes, a phone bill, and a Visitor's pass from when Tom visited us in Italy in May, 2006 and about ten more photos.

Adriane

Still too wordy. See my changes above. They want to know you met in the last 2 years. Send pics, boarding passes,etc. If you're worried about the lease, don't send it. Pics of your daughter is not about you & him meeting, at all. It could be any girl.

And don;t mention the hubby, sounds confusing & weird.

I got a copy of the lease showing his signature and mine already. He wants me to include it, I'm still iffy- but it does help with primary evidence doesn't it?

Still working on the time line. I will go ahead and work on the packet one more day before mailing it (I was planning on doing so today)

Another friend suggested I have my bosses letter notarized- would this be overkill or a good idea? I'm not sure she has the time to go and get that done but I could ask if people have any experience in that area and believe it would be usefull.

I just miss him so damn much and want him back here.

Will check back here later on, since I have the evening shift today I will have sometime to get it more organized.

Right now I have:

Letter of Meeting with a photo of our original meeting.

Plane tickets, itineraries & some boarding passes (what I could find)

Signed letter from my boss that she has met him and seen us together.

Dated photo from the Shark Reef at Mandalay bay (the kind you buy) with us and friends in July 2006.

Our lease we signed in both names from July to December 2006.

Photos of us at different times.

Cingular bill with both names and us calling eachother back and forth in my city.

His Amex bill showing him purchasing things around Oklahoma.

--

Adriane

[pushbrk 12,884]

An outline like many of the signatures on this site?

Met: June 2005 in Vicenza, Italy

Became friends and penpals. Played games on line together with other friends.

Second meeting: July & August 2005 in Belgium

Explored Belgium with 4 other friends.

Returned back to Italy and continued talking.

End of August 2005: Discuss possibly meeting on our own and dating.

Sept 2005: Fly to Belgium and meet for third time? Started Dating.

How far should I keep going? Also at this point I was married to my best friend. We had a child together and divorcing would have sent me and my daughter back stateside. So we lived as room mates and I slept in my daughters room. My daughter's father and my fiance are friends and everyone gets along. I did not get divorced until we moved back stateside. But how well they see this

Tom and I included everything but the recently found Boarding Passes in our original petition but I didn't get into details about our original courtship. So I've added the plane boarding passes, a phone bill, and a Visitor's pass from when Tom visited us in Italy in May, 2006 and about ten more photos.

Adriane

Still too wordy. See my changes above. They want to know you met in the last 2 years. Send pics, boarding passes,etc. If you're worried about the lease, don't send it. Pics of your daughter is not about you & him meeting, at all. It could be any girl.

And don;t mention the hubby, sounds confusing & weird.

I got a copy of the lease showing his signature and mine already. He wants me to include it, I'm still iffy- but it does help with primary evidence doesn't it?

Still working on the time line. I will go ahead and work on the packet one more day before mailing it (I was planning on doing so today)

Another friend suggested I have my bosses letter notarized- would this be overkill or a good idea? I'm not sure she has the time to go and get that done but I could ask if people have any experience in that area and believe it would be usefull.

I just miss him so damn much and want him back here.

Will check back here later on, since I have the evening shift today I will have sometime to get it more organized.

Right now I have:

Letter of Meeting with a photo of our original meeting.

Plane tickets, itineraries & some boarding passes (what I could find)

Signed letter from my boss that she has met him and seen us together.

Dated photo from the Shark Reef at Mandalay bay (the kind you buy) with us and friends in July 2006.

Our lease we signed in both names from July to December 2006.

Photos of us at different times.

Cingular bill with both names and us calling eachother back and forth in my city.

His Amex bill showing him purchasing things around Oklahoma.

--

Adriane

Looks good as long as he didn't overstay his allowed time when you were leasing. I'd skip the AMEX bill. It doesn't prove anything. Anybody could have been using his card, in person or by phone or internet. AMEX bills don't show whether the card was swiped or keyed. Trust me on that.

[Barbarella UK 0]

Just a quick query - you mentioned that your (Belgian) fiance visited between July 2006 and January 2007 - did he travel under the Visa Waiver Program? If so I would have thought that he would only have been eligible to remain in the US for 90 days. Or did he use some other type of visa?

[Amarach 0]

Just a quick query - you mentioned that your (Belgian) fiance visited between July 2006 and January 2007 - did he travel under the Visa Waiver Program? If so I would have thought that he would only have been eligible to remain in the US for 90 days. Or did he use some other type of visa?

He came on a tourist visa and left before it ran out. He showed both incoming and outgoing tickets at POE (LAX) and was admitted. We travelled around some before heading to Oklahoma where he leased an apt with me. The lease ended and the apartment is now in my name only. He flew out the first week of January before his Visa ran out.

I know the Amex doesn't prove he was here, but it is good back up evidence for some of the photos showing him in places (For example the date on the amex bill matches up with our stay at Circus Circus in Vegas and going to Mandalay Bay Shark Reef)

Adriane

[Amarach 0]

The dated photo I have from Mandalay Bay, is a color photo copy good enough or should I send the original? I figure we don't get them back and it is my only copy- so thought I would ask. I'll give it up for a good cause though.

Adriane

[bora bora 1]

This is what we sent:

Copy of Brazilian visas from passport

Copy of stamped entries into Brazil

Copy of teaching certificate from Brazil

Copy of both sides of Brazilian residency card with translation

Copy of Flight Coupons and the itinerary from last trip

Receipt from hotel and business card with translation

Pictures (6) from 2004 until the present

* I don't think the lease is a problem since he did NOT overstay his visa...

[Amarach 0]

This is what we sent:

Copy of Brazilian visas from passport

Copy of stamped entries into Brazil

Copy of teaching certificate from Brazil

Copy of both sides of Brazilian residency card with translation

Copy of Flight Coupons and the itinerary from last trip

Receipt from hotel and business card with translation

Pictures (6) from 2004 until the present

* I don't think the lease is a problem since he did NOT overstay his visa...

I appreciate it. Mostly though I'm worried about the circumstance of meeting- all the advice for the evidence of meeting in the preceding two years has been more than wonderful though and we are very grateful for it

Adriane